Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Honestly I'm taking the 200-250 from top smn numbers. Where their rdps and adps differences are only like 200 and their parties probably know what devotion actually looks like on the buff bar. My personal rdps and adps differences are usually maybe 100 and I know my team doesn't try and take advantage of it at all, i just do my best to line it up with trick so that we can do more damage.

EF is 7 ticks of about 2500-3000HP. It can be helpful if it comes up during raidwides but honestly I don't see many healers take it into consideration when healing when it's total healing done is the same as if they slap rapture or Assize or something and the moments it can be clutch in are probably also wipe situations. It's just a regen for about 20k hp every 2 minutes and most smns seem to have 80% or higher overheal amounts in any fight so even when we pop it during raidwides the healers are probably popping some other big boy stuff to top everyone off in 1-2 casts to go back to doing damage.

So again it's majorly about the raise.

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Exactly. Well said

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Originally Posted by AbelArchaniEA

Says the self-proclaimed “expert”

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Would you like to point towards someone more expert than the main theory crafter for the role?

This is getting off-topic, and frankly it feels like we're talking around each other, so this will be my last post about this. They key of what I'm saying is, give BLM a raise and rebalance casters to be much closer to each other in total rDPS, or delete raise from the caster role entirely and rebalance casters to be much closer to each other.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

and people still even now argue they will take redmage for ultimate progression before switching to smn or blackmage once they come close to enrage

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Yes, once RDM's niche is done then RDM is worth much less than SMN or BLM. In the most extreme example, RDMs swapped to BLM for Titan Savage to beat enrage. Plenty are also saying they're just going to bring Summoner to Ultimate; plenty of people progged through UWU with a SMN throughout because of its mobility, and that its raise is "good enough:" remember even with Summoner's one raise, there are still three raises in the party, and by 3 deaths your ability to see mechanics accurately and prog is hindered greatly. This is why I'm saying that "triplecast raise" would not break anything outright.

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and yes smn was often seen as superior, allways as soon as its damage got close to the damage of blm, because at this point it was a more mobile blackmage with a rezz, instead of a rezz bot like the redmage which was exactly my point. giving blackmage a rezz and getting redmage up there (or even blm and summoner down to redmage/let them meet anywhere in the middle) would do literally NOTHING to change the imbalance between redmage and summoner, it would just throw in blackmage somewhere in the middle of it.

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What I'm saying is, Black Mage does not need any silly gimmick like "It eats polyglot" or "It gives the raised player Walking Dead" (yes that's been suggested). Black Mage using a raise comes with its own inherent costs, which it feels like you're ignoring or not reading; using an instant cast on a raise means they're losing a mobility skill. Let's say one person dies, just the one, and swift is down but triple is not: if the BLM wants to raise they need to pop triplecast, which means they're sacrificing two instant casts just to raise one person; then assume after they raise, someone else dies and triple's been all used up. BLM is out of raising options now, and BLM would lose the most out of a hardcast raise.

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either redmage stays weaker than the other 2, in that case it stays the rezz bot for progress or it gets up to their level and everyone will complain that redmage is as strong as Summoner/blackmage while it can chain rezz.

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All three casters get raise. All three casters are then balanced to do (ballpark) 15,000 rDPS. RDM is good at speed raising with its abundance of instant casts, but abusing them will run the RDM out of MP and make them a non-DPS. SMN is good at cheap raising, neither especially strong nor especially weak at the role. BLM is good at chain raising with its back-to-back instant casts and essentially infinite mana (at points), but it uses its mobility to do so and outside of the windows where swift and triple are available their raising capabilities are limited to say the least. Each has strengths, each has weaknesses.

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you're focusing way to much on what i said about blackmage specifically, even though at its core what i said was "the current rezz "balance" between redmage and smn works out badly as is, simply slapping a rez on blackmage would only make it worse" i flat out stated that "do x for redmage, y for smn and z for blackmage" was just an example, but they do either need different kinds of opportunity costs tacked onto their rezz or giving rezz to blackmage does absolutely nothing to change the general balance problems we got with rezz right now and most likely will only make it worse.

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They do have different kinds of opportunity costs. That's what I've said in the past three posts. See the previous paragraph for a more in-depth description of what they are. I disagree entirely that giving BLM a raise without some silly gimmick tacked on and equalizing caster damage would throw off balance too badly; BLM's kit as it is now would interact with the tool in a way entirely unique to it that RDM and SMN couldn't replicate, just like now how SMN and RDM have identical raises, but their kits cause them to interact with them uniquely.

Never EVER give Blm a rez to balance the casters ...

slight Blm buff is needed (when looking at Blm since 5.1), .and probably a very slight Smn nerf (Smn is ahead if Sam too sometimes)..

but a slight Blm buff might be enough??

and Smb is too mobile for its damage.. (imo keep the new 5.1 super mobility of Smn.., but either nerf its dps potency a tick.., or buff the non-mobile blm..)

Can't believe how many of you Abel baited on this thread, I am as much impressed as I am disgusted.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Never EVER give Blm a rez to balance the casters ...

slight Blm buff is needed (when looking at Blm since 5.1), .and probably a very slight Smn nerf (Smn is ahead if Sam too sometimes)..

but a slight Blm buff might be enough??

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How "slight" is "slight"? How much will be enough? How much would be too much? As asked in 5.0, so asked again, what is the quantified value of raise and what do you have to back that up?

My firm position is that caster balance will always be in a weird and often terrible place because raise is difficult to balance around in the first place. If SMN did not have raise, a lot less people would care that it does similar damage to BLM.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Honestly I'm taking the 200-250 from top smn numbers. Where their rdps and adps differences are only like 200 and their parties probably know what devotion actually looks like on the buff bar. My personal rdps and adps differences are usually maybe 100 and I know my team doesn't try and take advantage of it at all, i just do my best to line it up with trick so that we can do more damage.

EF is 7 ticks of about 2500-3000HP. It can be helpful if it comes up during raidwides but honestly I don't see many healers take it into consideration when healing when it's total healing done is the same as if they slap rapture or Assize or something and the moments it can be clutch in are probably also wipe situations. It's just a regen for about 20k hp every 2 minutes and most smns seem to have 80% or higher overheal amounts in any fight so even when we pop it during raidwides the healers are probably popping some other big boy stuff to top everyone off in 1-2 casts to go back to doing damage.

So again it's majorly about the raise.

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Those are not top numbers for Devotion at all. Even in my raid group that only does weeklies, Devotion is more than double your quoted range on a full uptime encounter (Voidwalker).

For groups that optimise this gets pushed further. If you're only judging it from adps vs rdps that's such an incorrect lens to view it through because SMN always, always, always takes more than it gives from Devotion if it's a competent group with a modicum+ of synergy. That kind of quoted delta is actually really low since an optimised run will have SMN making tremendous use of alignment windows.

Just because your group or you don't see people making use of these things to greatest effect does not mean that they aren't nor shouldn't be factored in.

I will never disparage the significance of raise. But do not downplay what else is there.

Well, I am also really bad at reading fflogs. I'm not sure how to filter by what you have in that screencap. If I go to buffs where I would assume it is I just get uptimes and some things that say Teach Me! to teach fflogs something but I'm not sure what.
Up til now I'd just been comparing rdps and adps and assumed it was filtering devotion from adps. I hadn't really bothered with the site until somewhat recently

Edit - Ok I found it. Seems like I offered 350-440 in this week's clears. I don't get why these numbers aren't on the buffs tab though.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

(Seriously though who decided pure dps should be the top in rdps... adps i understand but rdps?)

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Because rdps is the only dps metric that matters and it's really hard to gauge the impact of other, more defensive utility (the raise, Addle itself, stuff like that).
In fact, in general pure adps jobs fare worse than jobs with buffs, assuming the party can align their junk.
(I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing, just stating where it probably comes from)