How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Will either of those things lead to A: A much quicker kill time. B: A clear instead of an enrage wipe.

The answer to both of those is it wont. Sure will those things lead to a slightly better personal 4 digit number at the end of the fight? Sure, but it doesn't do A or B so its pointless and no need to waste official resource on so you can do something that doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

I don't have experience with with o3s just yet but assuming what you say is true then that means there are 2 fights in all of stormblood that require a change to the opener which is the new trail and this fight every other fight in this expansion and pretty much all of them from the last you can just use the muscle memory gained from hitting that dummy

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Your entire post is based on a logical fallacy that improving optimization can't lead to a clear in situations where a party would otherwise wipe.

Let's set aside the basic issue of enrage for now. Buff optimization is certainly a key tool in beating enrage when you find yourself undergeared for a fight but I'll grant that that isn't very frequent.

How about Dual's examples, through. Let's say he saves Embolden and the party has a nice burst window after the level checker in o11s. Further into the fight some things go wrong and there are some deaths. The dps gained by optimization can make a difference here because what might have spiraled into an enrage wipe is now still salvageable.

Of course on the off chance you have a group of all ps4 players or even PC players who can't or won't run ACT that is just an option that's denied to you. This is the advantage of a parser and why implementing one in game (which wouldn't be a huge resource drain anyways, they have a combat log after all) would be a worthwhile investment.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Can you people just stop grabbing anything you can and attaching parses to it, just so you can say "parses are the demon itself"?

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This is the tactic they use whenever the topic of parsers comes up. They like to deflect their own unreasonable hatred towards parsers and those who use them by blaming "Raiders" and "Elitists" aka people they never play with and use anecdotal examples of potential toxicity that would occur if a official parser was implemented. They will go to any lengths to try to prove that if a official parser was ever added into the game the servers would implode and the game would die. The irony of it all is that the people that are the most toxic are the ones who are completely against parsers for nonsensical reasons.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Your entire post is based on a logical fallacy that improving optimization can't lead to a clear in situations where a party would otherwise wipe.

Let's set aside the basic issue of enrage for now. Buff optimization is certainly a key tool in beating enrage when you find yourself undergeared for a fight but I'll grant that that isn't very frequent.

How about Dual's examples, through. Let's say he saves Embolden and the party has a nice burst window after the level checker in o11s. Further into the fight some things go wrong and there are some deaths. The dps gained by optimization can make a difference here because what might have spiraled into an enrage wipe is now still salvageable.

Of course on the off chance you have a group of all ps4 players or even PC players who can't or won't run ACT that is just an option that's denied to you. This is the advantage of a parser and why implementing one in game (which wouldn't be a huge resource drain anyways, they have a combat log after all) would be a worthwhile investment.

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You aren't looking at this practically. How often can that happen? Do you even know that that little buff change around will make up for 15% reduction in power of whoever died. In order for your situation to arise people would need to be near flawless in their rotations and mechanical execution.

Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics. As a result and combined with knowledge of how the game works I can make changes in my gameplay to improve weather it be uptime, more uses of important buffs. Do i have the exact numbers in front of me? No and not every fight I do is logged otherwise my fllogs records would be really long. But do I need those numbers in front of me? Also no I already know my damage went up i went from 5 blood for bloods to 9 in the same fight of course my dps went up the exact number of which doesn't matter.

Why you ask, simple this is a team based game if the other players on the team just do what they always do that my extra uses of skills doesn't translate to a faster kill time or the increase from me doesn't save us from an enrage wipe. its only when all 8 players are using logs and making those changes that it can make the difference we call that speed running. Most people don't do that as again there's no real reason to. So the devs shouldn't be wasting resources on something that small section of the community already does just fine pc and ps4 players alike. The additional negatives to the community at large are unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You aren't looking at this practically. How often can that happen? Do you even know that that little buff change around will make up for 15% reduction in power of whoever died. In order for your situation to arise people would need to be near flawless in their rotations and mechanical execution.

Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics. As a result and combined with knowledge of how the game works I can make changes in my gameplay to improve weather it be uptime, more uses of important buffs. Do i have the exact numbers in front of me? No and not every fight I do is logged otherwise my fllogs records would be really long. But do I need those numbers in front of me? Also no I already know my damage went up i went from 5 blood for bloods to 9 in the same fight of course my dps went up the exact number of which doesn't matter.

Why you ask, simple this is a team based game if the other players on the team just do what they always do that my extra uses of skills doesn't translate to a faster kill time or the increase from me doesn't save us from an enrage wipe. its only when all 8 players are using logs and making those changes that it can make the difference we call that speed running. Most people don't do that as again there's no real reason to. So the devs shouldn't be wasting resources on something that small section of the community already does just fine pc and ps4 players alike. The additional negatives to the community at large are unnecessary.

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Again, you are able to do that. Not everyone can play at a high-level of optimization naturally. Not everyone is able to figure these things out intuitively. Quite a number of players, myself included, need these tools to figure out where we are messing up (because it's not always obvious), where we can improve, how we can compare to better players. Seems like you are arguing that what feels natural and easy to you should be natural and easy to everybody else that plays, and that simply just isn't possible or true.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Again, you are able to do that. Not everyone can play at a high-level of optimization naturally. Not everyone is able to figure these things out intuitively. Quite a number of players, myself included, need these tools to figure out where we are messing up (because it's not always obvious), where we can improve, how we can compare to better players. Seems like you are arguing that what feels natural and easy to you should be natural and easy to everybody else that plays, and that simply just isn't possible or true.

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Again you miss the point. The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running. As long as you follow your rotation you are fine. if you cannot preform your rotation because mechanics are messing with you a parser is not going to tell you or help you with anything playing the game and committing that rotation to memory however will. If you are unable to do that you have 2 options: play a class which you can do that with o:r stay out of savage and extreme fights for about 5-6 months from there release date. At which point your gear will make up for any rotational mistake unless you are just hitting buttons at random.

And you really are overestimating optimizing the bosses in this game do the same thing at the same time every single time without fail. its a simple matter of paying attention if you aren't paying attention its because your too busy staring at your hot bars. and we have discussed at length at how you go about fixing that

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Again you miss the point. The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running. As long as you follow your rotation you are fine. if you cannot preform your rotation because mechanics are messing with you a parser is not going to tell you or help you with anything playing the game and committing that rotation to memory however will. If you are unable to do that you have 2 options: play a class which you can do that with o:r stay out of savage and extreme fights for about 5-6 months from there release date. At which point your gear will make up for any rotational mistake unless you are just hitting buttons at random.

and you really are overestimating optimizing

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No, you're underestimating it.

Optimization aside how do you think rotations are even constructed?

Your ignorance as to how this game works for many people is really irritating. It's clear you've made up your mind, enjoy being wrong I guess.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Again you miss the point. The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running. As long as you follow your rotation you are fine. if you cannot preform your rotation because mechanics are messing with you a parser is not going to tell you or help you with anything playing the game and committing that rotation to memory however will. If you are unable to do that you have 2 options: play a class which you can do that with o:r stay out of savage and extreme fights for about 5-6 months from there release date. At which point your gear will make up for any rotational mistake unless you are just hitting buttons at random.

And you really are overestimating optimizing the bosses in this game do the same thing at the same time every single time without fail. its a simple matter of paying attention if you aren't paying attention its because your too busy staring at your hot bars. and we have discussed at length at how you go about fixing that

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If I have a run where I sit at 4.9k, and I've done my rotation correctly, and the nearest DPS to me is sitting at 5.3k, there is a problem with something that I am doing because I have been capable of pulling higher. Yet, on paper, I've done my rotation correctly. I should be higher. Diving into more details like being able to parse naturally and then read that information and figure out what else I am missing out. At min ilvl, every little bit of contribution does count. And by the way, the information used from a parser was able to pull me from 4.9k to 6.0k, which matters a lot, especially within the first month of a new raid. Once again, you are simplifying matters as if it really is that simple. It is not. Again, what comes to you naturally, does not come naturally to other players. How is that a hard concept to grasp?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

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This has to be one of the most dedicated trolls I've seen in a while. Saying stuff like "Using myself as an example I'm a ps4 player and when i learn a fight i'm pretty much flawless when it comes to doing the mechanics" and "The point is that there is no point to parsing it means nothing unless you are speed running". The only thing that's proven here is that you are clearly consumed by your own ego and that you have no idea how parsing works. Those optimized rotations you keep talking about, would like you to take a guess how theory crafters came up with those? I'm sure you have the capacity to figure that out. Ignorance is bliss i suppose, have fun sitting in that little bubble you've crafted around yourself.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

No, you're underestimating it.

Optimization aside how do you think rotations are even constructed?

Your ignorance as to how this game works for many people is really irritating. It's clear you've made up your mind, enjoy being wrong I guess.

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Or you just forgot what optimize means. The rotations are the base point you optimize by building off that for fights were you can get more damage out. The thing you're missing is that step is useless as the game does not require you to do that to clear anything. I understand how the game works you just think it revolves around speed running. It doesn't it never has and probably never will when we get fights that require all of us to update and change our rotations around in order to clear it and failure to do so means enrage wipes 100% of the time is when parser become required. Until then learn to separate what you like doing in the game from what is required of you from the game.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

While this is true there is something to be said about giving people less tools to be jerks. We have all played with a much larger amount of jerks than we realise because these people had no parser to use as a platform to be awful people.

As I said before in this thread I played WoW before parsers were commonly used and the community changed for the worse when they became commonplace...or rather, we saw the community for what it actually was to be more precise. When jerks have no ammunition they're just going to play the content like everyone else. When they do have ammo, their true colours come out. I see absolutely no reason why it would be any different in XIV. A parser would most definitely make jerks feel they are justified to be more openly hostile. You only need to use PF for ex and savage to see this behaviour already.

Again not disputing that parsers are useful tools, because they are. The unfortunate truth is they're often used as an excuse to be horrible to people.

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Numerous people have claimed the opposite regarding WoW; that its toxicity comes from a variety of places, not simply parsers.

Even taken at face value. I, personally, disagree with a coddle mentality. They took this approach with Feast chat and look how well that worked? It's among the many reasons people won't even bother with PvP. Regardless, wouldn't it be better to reap the benefits of a helpful tool while simultaneously banning people who abuse it? After all, if they did feel emboldened to harass people, they'll be caught much quicker than they would otherwise.