Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Because Archer is a "Bow User" and Ranger is a "Ranged Damage Dealing Specialist." (Based on a personal assumption). Bow is a Weapon, The Ranger is a Specialization (Job). Archer is the Class

Lancer uses a Lance. Dragoon uses a lance also but has Jump and other abilities to help control Hate.
Lance is a weapon, Dragoon is a specialization (Job). Lancer is the Class

Thats already established with how they are going to implement them. (Not sure what you mean here)

That isn't what we are arguing.

What we are arguing is there is no reason to lock a Weapon from a Job just because that weapon might not be the best fit for the job. Because the Job doesn't define the weapon used, it defines the role performed in combat which again doesn't define the weapon used.

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You are leaving out important parts of your sentences to make them work for you. I'll help you out by using FFXI as an example.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

You are leaving out important parts of your sentences to make them work for you. I'll help you out by using FFXI as an example.

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And you keep acting as if things like Lancer and Lance are two different things. They are the same parts of one coin. You can't have a lancer without a lance. Thats established. If I say Lance, I mean and am already including Lancer. If I say bow, I mean and am already including Archer.


But Dragoon is NOT specifically a lancer. Case in point a huge majority of Final Fantasy's with Dragoons have swords specifically set aside that ONLY dragoons can use (Sometimes they are singularly shared with RDM but most of the time they are DRG Only) One is called the Epee.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Epee

Dragoon shouldn't be restricted to Lances Only.

Archers Use Bows. Thats their weapon. Archer means Arch User (Arch is latin for Bow)

A Ranger uses a Bow, but they are not Archers. A Ranger can also use guns, cross bows, throwing weapons, hand axes, swords, and daggers.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

What is it you want? Freedom of Choice to pick what ever weapon I wish for use with a Job AFTER I have mastered it.

Why do you think it's important we have it? Because not everyones definition for a Specific Job includes a Defined Weapon of Choice. And some enjoy following past FF lore, or building their character based of off a specific image of how they want their character.

How will it fit in with current game systems? Because the Job System defines Role, Skills, and Traits, the only thing weapon is left to define is Stats. Stats can be compensated against with gear so by allowing players to experiment with various combinations they can find a set up they truly enjoy.

Example. If a Player enjoys playing as someone who attacks monsters from behind, and enjoys doing it with a Great Axe, they should be allowed too. This would essentially be a Marauder/Thief based on skills in the game already, This combination would do nicely on its own. But if Thief is relegated to being unlocked and only usable by Gladiator, or Pugilist (Depending on which Class unlocks it.) Then a Marauder/Thief option becomes unusable even if its a very valid and very powerful option.

The downside to this openness is that some combinations might not be very powerful. An Archer/White Mage might not be the best healer. But if you lock Classes and Jobs only on certain patterns it breaks with the tradition of Final Fantasy XIV as it already stands, as well as past Final Fantasy's. In that the best option is not always the only option available. Some options are not the best option but are still an option and its up to the player to decide that for themselves.

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Alright, thanks for replying.

The desire for greater character freedom is one I'm sure anyone can get behind and I don't think anyone wants to restrict it if they can help it. Of course, there are limitations to just how much and in what capacity this can be given while still maintaining the structure of the game. I was hoping you'd define for me what you consider a "class" and perhaps give a reasoning for why you think the class to weapon bond should be broken for the job system but oh well. Anyways, this is based on my own interpretation of what little info was given regarding the new job system, so I may make some false assumptions.

As it is now "class" is defined by your weapon. The skills you learn are also dependent on your class and your proficiency within it. I can't say that, necessarily, your weapon determines your skills, as there is cross class usage, but it certainly has an effect on the usefulness of those abilities. Now, the job system is, as I understand it, an extension of the class system. Jobs have specific class requirements and each are further specializations into specific party roles, more than likely in line with the basic role of the class it was born from. So you may have lancer expand into a DD job or a support job. Not simply general roles but extensions of the way these roles were achieved by Lnc itself, namely debuffs a la Dnc placed on the enemy or piercing attacks. In taking on this specialization, the jobs give up a level of freedom in cross class skill usage in favor of special skills they themselves can only use. You can make a conscious decision to take on a certain role and gain a boost in that area, giving up your diversity for it.

Now, the problem is you seem to be asking for diversity in a system that is built around the idea of specialization. To swap to another weapon would not suddenly give you access to new skills, as many are locked out during the move into "job" status. There is no freedom to be gained in a restricted system and the only freedom is in your ability to choose a specialization to adapt to whatever situation you find yourself in. Also, while I don't have a drawn out reasoning pointing to this, it doesn't make much sense to me to suddenly remove the role of weapons in defining purpose out of some idea that the skillsets make up for it. They don't replace classes they augment them and it's only natural that the class they are meant to enhance remains intact. Classes are the foundation and jobs are the structure.

I think a critical mistake many are making in this discussion is comparing XIV to older games on a one to one basis. Of course parallels can be drawn and many of the names applied to jobs will more than likely come from previous FFs. However, that does not mean they are equal and does not mean we can use games that aren't XIV to define what XIV is.

Finally, it may sound a bit dismissive, but it's entirely true. If you want to play a healer, you play a healer. Don't try and make the DD into a healer. If you do you remove any semblance of a job system and it simply becomes a skill system, something that the class system already borders along.

Edit: Sorry just wanted to clarify one point. Some skills ARE reliant on your weapon such as Speed Surge which specifically states "Requires: Polearm." It's not entirely relevant to my post but I just wanted to put that out there.

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剣術士 → Sword User｜Sword User→Gladius (Latin: Sword)+ -ātor (Latin: Agent) → Gladiator

格闘士 → Hand-to-Hand User｜Fist User → Pugil (Latin: Fist) + -ist (Latin: Practitioner) → Pugilist

弓術士 → Bow User｜Bow User → Arcus (Latin: Bow) + -er (Defines a User from his Tool) → Archer

槍術士 → Lance User｜Lance User → Lancea (Latin: Lance) + er (Defines a User from his Tool) → Lancer

Marauder branches away from latin, instead seeming to draw on French (Maurader is a word of french origin) and the Franks with their menacing Francisca axes. So the “Axe User” gets rather loosely translated as “Marauder”.

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Because I don't think everyone got this memo.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

And you keep acting as if things like Lancer and Lance are two different things. They are the same parts of one coin. You can't have a lancer without a lance. Thats established. But Dragoon is NOT specifically a lancer. Case in point a huge majority of Final Fantasy's with Dragoons have swords specifically set aside that ONLY dragoons can use (Sometimes they are singularly shared with RDM but most of the time they are DRG Only) One is called the Epee.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Epee

Dragoon shouldn't be restricted to Lances Only.

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Lol again with the games of yesteryear. That is a sword. What happens in FFXIV when you equip a sword?

You're arguing but you're arguing a different point that is not the subject of this thread.... which is your own thread.

I believe Jobs will be class specific.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Because I don't think everyone got this memo.

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Another word game with no source? Source it up Thickskull

Speaking of word games, this has no relevance to your thread either.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Another word game with no source? Source it up Thickskull

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The Japanese names are present on the Japanese Forum List. Here you go.

クラス
格闘士／剣術士／斧術士／弓術士／槍術士／幻術士／呪術士／採掘師／園芸師／漁師／木工師／鍛冶師／甲冑師／彫金師／革細工師／裁縫師／錬金術師／調理師

The original Translations I listed come from Elmer from ZAM.

The Names for Each class in English we already know. Each of those names is based off of latin, with the exception of Marauder which is based off french.

I don't need to source these things they are established historical words.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Lol again with the games of yesteryear. That is a sword. What happens in FFXIV when you equip a sword?

You're arguing but you're arguing a different point that is not the subject of this thread.... which is your own thread.

I believe Jobs will be class specific.

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In FFXIV you equip a sword you become a "Sword User" (Japanese Name) which is a Gladiator in english. Gladiator is simply the name of the weapon user. Not its role or its Job.

A Dragoon is a Job that is defined by one key element. Jumping for Hate Control. It is not limited to Spears, Lances or Swords.

A Dragoon can Use Swords.

A Dragoon/Gladiator should be a valid option for play.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

The Japanese names are present on the Japanese Forum List. Here you go.

クラス
格闘士／剣術士／斧術士／弓術士／槍術士／幻術士／呪術士／採掘師／園芸師／漁師／木工師／鍛冶師／甲冑師／彫金師／革細工師／裁縫師／錬金術師／調理師

The original Translations I listed come from Elmer from ZAM.

The Names for Each class in English we already know. Each of those names is based off of latin, with the exception of Marauder which is based off french.

I don't need to source these things they are established historical words.

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Now, what is the point you're trying to make?

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

I believe Jobs will be class specific.

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I have no doubt that you do. Thats not what I'm asking. I'm asking that SE consider that they keep the ability to use any weapon on any job an option. Lots of other players have agreed with me. Thats the only thing I've tried to instill. Yet you keep coming along saying things like "A Dragoon is a Lancer" when historically its not.

My point with the Class list translations is to try and show that all the classes are are weapons. They are not established roles, they are nothing but the weapon themselves. They are a foundation to build a character off of. A tool to teach you skills. One of those skills they will now teach you is the ability to define your Role with a Job that gives you a combat specialization.

Once I've learned and mastered that Specialization I should be allowed to use it on any weapon. Which is what the Armoury system was designed for.