Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's probably worthwhile doing a comparison in terms of GCDs rather than combos.

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Sure, but if we want to hammer out what playflows and affordances we want from a second combo, we are going to have to look at what we like or don't like from said combos.

Starting from the ones already in-game before moving on to more theoretical grounds seems a good plan.

We can, also, look at both other forms of GCD variety and what we want from paced/secondary combos. We needn't "rather than" either out of the picture.

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For my part, fixed CD combos seem the least interesting, and also the most frustrating if one has no other way to correct for the drift they can cause.

Similarly, I generally prefer DoT durations to buff durations, because they at least add two further considerations, cleave and the target's remaining lifespan (in seconds' time).

Resource-generation could potentially take the cake, though, if able to introduce some degree of polyrhythm (a shorter use here, a longer use there) instead of being obliged to be used at, in effect, an equally locked interval. (If not, though, it'd typically be the worst of all worlds -- increasing downtime punishment in a way that'd also badly further drift, causing one to entering combat without access to their cooler-looking skills, and generally feeling incredibly constraining.)

Ideally, resource-generated combos should also have some banking available to them, along with some capacity to take up or give slack to counteract would-be drift. Variable length resource-spending combos could probably do this best, so long as there is a good reason to use the combo even when unable to complete it. For instance, if a combo granted some duration of a buff for even just starting it, you'd typically (but ideally, not always) prioritize keeping that buff up over maximizing the ppgcd of that combo by using it only when you can support its full length.

They could always go for a twofer. Souleater combo is still for MP, add a 2nd GCD combo (that does the same damage as the Souleater combo) for Darkside generation. Edge/Flood still need MP to be used (albeit probably with a cooldown attached), Blood moves drain Darkside, necessitating alternating between the two combos to keep your resources up while preventing it from being too hectic due to the longer time between Edge/Flood uses. This of course, would require a fine line and I'm not sure the dev team could pull it off tbh.

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Originally Posted by Runeslayer

In my head, the idea that 'dark knight ramps up their attack speed over time, like they fight harder and faster the longer they fight' seems a really neat concept if executed properly.

Perhaps they could lean into that as a rotation that caps out with some kind of finisher? Building levels of speed before needing to finish it off and reset or 'rest', then ramping up again.

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Could be cool. Like say every time you hit Edge of Shadow you speed up just a bit more until after 4 or 5 you're going crazy fast and end it with some sort of burst.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

For example, it would probably work fine if you imagine an FFXIV where:

• Encounters don't try to cleanly fit around 60s cycles
• 2-minute party buff stacking has been deleted
• Dark Knight's weaving burden during burst has been scaled back considerably

In such a case, an "ebb and flow" cycle ramping between high and low speed would probably have room to feel both natural and effective.

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Yeah that's the big elephant in the room, Square could feasibly make these changes for 7.0 but then DRK possibly just becomes a weird outlier that doesn't mesh well with other classes. From what I've seen other people say about PLD now, you have to do some funky things with the rotation to keep it aligned with raid buffs which I don't think is necessarily an issue with the rotation itself, just the environment it's in. It just depends on what direction they want to take job design in 7.0, I'd really be interested in Yoshi's thoughts on that.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I guess my main question (for anyone/everyone), then, is what might we do that could create situations or events that could more worthwhile anchors for our bankable skills and resources than are raid CDs?

Naturally, that would require that their advantages are more potent than a certain degree of raid buffs.

That has a couple new problems, of course, if DRK's bankable/flexible skills and resources don't exceed what they can use for their own anchors/windows outside of CD alignments: When raid buffs are too few or weak, those raid buff windows become irrelevant and the job loses that gameplay; and, when raid buffs are too many or powerful, DRK's own anchors may lose relevance and therefore cost DRK that play. So, we'd probably ultimately need to give DRK a bit more to work with there (which is nebulous in that there are so many ways to go about that, including even just expanding particular oGCD's cooldowns, like Edge/Flood's, as not to be all dumped into a single of DRK's own new windows).

:: To be clear, though, I'm all for the ramping, pace-varying, "risk-reward focused" DRK. That's what I wanted most from DRK when it came out, and I've only come to want it more over time.

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This starts moving into a different topic regarding the state of raid buffs in XIV, but I think ideally raid buffs would be minimized or eliminated, with the exception of BRD, DNC and AST if possible since that's a big part of their identity, and giving DRK some kind of self buff where it can dump its hard hitting moves. I like bringing up ShB DRG as a good example because that was a fun part of its gameplay, entering or delaying Life of the Dragon so that it always lined up with its buffs.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I admit, I'm struggling to come up with any sort of maintenance combo that doesn't blatantly riff on PLD's (like bringing back Scourge) or WAR's (like putting Darkside on GCD). In theory you can get a similar time-gated element through other means, but those would probably involve restrictive/drifting cooldowns or new resources (including stacking effects).
... And frankly, while this may be reductive, I don't think "replace Souleater on every third combo" really offers much appeal for shifting our downtime.

However, I would invite the jury to consider that GNB also lacks a maintenance combo, and to my knowledge, there is no call for them to get one due to their varied GCD options.

Not that I'm saying "let's copy GNB in lieu of copying WAR or PLD," because ideally whatever we end up with is still unique to DRK's identity, but I would invite using GNB as a case study in considering acceptable alternatives for downtime, eg considering what works for them that says they don't need a maintenance combo? From there we might be able to work backwards.

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A big part of it is Gnashing Fang happening every 30 seconds, it's enough to break up downtime but also not super spammy. Burst Strike also helps, it gives you a 4 to break up your normal 1-2-3 combo but also gives some resource management to think about since it also uses cartridges. Hard to say how we could get something like that on DRK though.


Separately I like a lot of ideas in the thread but man, figuring out what would work and what wouldn't and putting it all together in one coherent package is hard. I don't envy the devs.

SE seems big on "Tesco Mudras" these days: Dancer Steps, Monk Beast Chakras, etc.

And Dark Knight wields a big sword that lights up with occult-looking symbols when they invoke their actions.

And FF series has an entire history of 'Rune Blade' warrior-magic hybrid Jobs.

And we're saying again and again that Dark Knight needs more GCDs, rather than even more OGCDs to cram in and try to weave.

And adding things to Living Shadow is as bad as Queen Automaton: boring, fire-and-forget, uninvolved, pseudo-gameplay.

And no Tank has any kind of 'code entry' design, so there's no toes to step on.

And Dark Knight has historically been the 'weird complex tank' that doesn't do things like the normal children.

...So, maybe some kind of "Rune Entry' system, where you can invoke Bloodsoaked Runes (or some other chuuni name) in a certain combination or order, and use that to trigger big, impactful Spell finishers?

This puts all the emphasis on the GCD, provides extra weaving space, and gives Dark Knight something unique and distinct to define it compared to other Tanks.

You could either do the Ninja/Dancer/Monk route (you enter a specific 'code entry' phase using a cooldown) or the Samurai route (you build up 'code entries' by completing combos), or try some entirely-different variation on it (such as mixing in traditionally 'taboo' tools for code entry, things like Unmend or Unleash).

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

And Dark Knight wields a big sword that lights up with occult-looking symbols when they invoke their actions.

And FF series has an entire history of 'Rune Blade' warrior-magic hybrid Jobs.

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So, ignoring that Spell/Rune Blade/Fencer or Mage Knight has been a separate job within the FF series for decades, even existing in entries alongside Dark Knight (such as 11), and it could probably be introduced to 14 as a separate job...
And that you've basically just described a Warcraft Death Knight...

That doesn't particularly seem like something fitting DRK's own job history, aesthetic or playstyle? Like it's a neat idea, but it would require creating a very complicated resource system around just such a set of abilities, NIN and DNC's systems don't give much room for weaving oGCDs between their "entries" which would create even more complicated windows around DRK's own, while MNK and SAM's only work because they already have a plethora of GCDs based around such a system.

I kinda wish they could pull a Void Knight thing from Stranger of Paradise, where you guard magic attacks and accrue power from them, which you can then use to gain MP or to do a powerful attack, with the attack getting more powerful the more powerful the attack you blocked with it. But that sadly runs counter to how this game is designed, so it couldn't really work unless it was all damage filling up the gauge and they made it so you could attach something like "Sole Survivor" to somebody to get power whenever they're hit. That adds a second meaningful resource to watch (I don't consider MP to be meaningful when it's negligible unless you need TBN), which SE seems to be allergic to add to DRK.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They could always go for a twofer. Souleater combo is still for MP, add a 2nd GCD combo (that does the same damage as the Souleater combo) for Darkside generation. Edge/Flood still need MP to be used (albeit probably with a cooldown attached), Blood moves drain Darkside, necessitating alternating between the two combos to keep your resources up while preventing it from being too hectic due to the longer time between Edge/Flood uses. This of course, would require a fine line and I'm not sure the dev team could pull it off tbh.

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Some quick notes:

• That is mighty close to Warrior's Surging Tempest, even with the duration-consuming spenders. If that's fine with you, though, so be it. (The gameplay implications matter more to me than the on-paper similarities, for instance.)
  
  
• It will take 3 GCDs to reach your damage buff via Darkside (from combo ender) unless you spend two buttons for this sole purpose (for a small duration from 2nd step, opposite Maim, before a larger duration bump from the finisher). That can badly trim our use of raid buffs and make us feel a bit less responsive.
  
  
• Whichever resource you link to a buff's upkeep, if you want to use both resources, will have to be the weaker of the two once you've already got enough duration on that buff. Bloodspiller/Quietus would, in that case, have to provide a higher ppgcd advantage over your average non-spender GCD (e.g., Souleater combo itself) than your Edge/Flood does through its oGCDs. That's fine; it's just something to keep in mind, as it'd probably mean reducing the portion of DRK's damage that comes from oGCDs, which some may think of as relatively thematic at this point (even if really only true since Shadowbringers).
  
  
• I really hope this wouldn't turn into a static loop (say, of DS combo, MP combo, Edge, Bloodspiller, repeat).
  
  
• Further punishing you for downtime aside, the difference between this and removing Darkside and just continuing to use the Blood gauge (and perhaps slowing both Blood generation and reducing Blood costs for greater banking) seems pretty minimal. That said, if we are to keep the Darkside gauge anyways, then I suppose we may as well make something of it and axe the Blood gauge, sure.

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Originally Posted by baklava151

This starts moving into a different topic regarding the state of raid buffs in XIV, but I think ideally raid buffs would be minimized or eliminated, with the exception of BRD, DNC and AST if possible since that's a big part of their identity, and giving DRK some kind of self buff where it can dump its hard hitting moves. I like bringing up ShB DRG as a good example because that was a fun part of its gameplay, entering or delaying Life of the Dragon so that it always lined up with its buffs.

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I'm not a huge fan of the how many redundant raid buffs we have; any more than are necessary to create a buff window that we'd actually care about do nothing in terms of gameplay, because we'd already committed to those actions/considerations.

However, ShB DRG would seem to give reason, simply, for more varied buff timings (and thus more windows to manage), rather than the minimization or removal of most raid buffs.

I think the biggest question we have to ask when considering raid buffs' elimination is what would replace them. The game has probably had too much pruning without clear replacement plans (or even candidates) for a long while now. Moreover, the most obvious replacements might not be all that fitting. Does DRK, for instance, really need a Fight or Flight / No Mercy of its own?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

So, ignoring that Spell/Rune Blade/Fencer or Mage Knight has been a separate job within the FF series for decades, even existing in entries alongside Dark Knight (such as 11), and it could probably be introduced to 14 as a separate job...
And that you've basically just described a Warcraft Death Knight...

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It could, but I think that ought beg a question much like, "Do we really need a Time Mage when we have Astrologian?" Now, obviously there's no direct precedent here for advanced rune magics on DRK, but does it seem to fit within DRK's trickier, more complex, more eclectic, more "problem child" feel and seem at least decently fitting with its current dark/occult magics? Splitting the psyche, channeling the soul, or directing aether via focus from 3-4 runes seems... pretty fitting to me.

I certainly like what it could do for making combo keys each feel like they deserve a button of their own.

My chief concern is that we'd want this early, but we know already that the devs won't bother to adjust the quest lore for any of this.


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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I kinda wish they could pull a Void Knight thing from Stranger of Paradise, where you guard magic attacks and accrue power from them, which you can then use to gain MP or to do a powerful attack, with the attack getting more powerful the more powerful the attack you blocked with it. But that sadly runs counter to how this game is designed, so it couldn't really work unless it was all damage filling up the gauge and they made it so you could attach something like "Sole Survivor" to somebody to get power whenever they're hit. That adds a second meaningful resource to watch (I don't consider MP to be meaningful when it's negligible unless you need TBN), which SE seems to be allergic to add to DRK.

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I think the concern that'd restrain this is the same as on most tanks due to concerns for its role. Those capacities would be MT only, which means they'd make tanks even more necessary up to the point they could just barely survive, and then, in balance, even weaker thereafter.

I'm all for it, though, especially if it can attach granular visual upgrades to denote/follow the added strength from absorption. I do, think, though, that Warrior is at least as fitting a candidate for "I hit big after I (would) have been hit big," so I suspect we'd need to negotiate that balance of identities. (Now, that might just mean jacking Warrior HP back up, giving it more self-healing from damage dealt, and comparatively starving it of mitigation while DRK, in turn, is empowered only to the degree it actively mitigates and gets the most flexible mitigation tools, but who knows? We can figure that out over time.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm all for it, though, especially if it can attach granular visual upgrades to denote/follow the added strength from absorption. I do, think, though, that Warrior is at least as fitting a candidate for "I hit big after I (would) have been hit big," so I suspect we'd need to negotiate that balance of identities. (Now, that might just mean jacking Warrior HP back up, giving it more self-healing from damage dealt, and comparatively starving it of mitigation while DRK, in turn, is empowered only to the degree it actively mitigates and gets the most flexible mitigation tools, but who knows? We can figure that out over time.)

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just something that came to mind about the MT OT situation on this sugestion, they could add a kardia like system were we could either generate that resource from getting hit ourselves, or select a party member to to get hit for us, so even if the DRK is off tanking he still get the resource for those big attacks