How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

What is motivation?

Also, I did this and used invigorate where motivation is since I'm assuming that's what you meant. As a whole I prefer to just single target and cycle through enemies while blasting geirskoguls as they're available. I find it's far more tp efficient. In AS2 I never use Doomspike simply for the fact that I don't know how available a paeon will be and I need to conserve as much tp as possible

@Kaldea, I did 947 on AS1 but I'm at 140-180 ping. I think a significant amount of damage loss from Dragoons comes from the adds and how quickly you can get back on the boss. Saving gap closers is ideal but not always a solution if resin baiting went awry. If you'd like Id be happy to discuss specific scenarios on that fight. I'm always looking to improve or help others.

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Yeah I meant Invigorate, it's Motivation in french >_> Sorry.

No worries, translations vary.

May I ask the average / optimal output number as a Dragoon on A1 Faust? I'm using Brionac and some i190 armor, with 2.44s recast time, I want to increase my numbers, I did around 1,2k over 2-3minutes without food/pots.

My friend showed me parse proof that he did around 1,4k as a MNK on Faust, and I'd really like it if I could get to his numbers >_>. Taking into consideration that our class should've better numbers than they do.

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

May I ask the average / optimal output number as a Dragoon on A1 Faust? I'm using Brionac and some i190 armor, with 2.44s recast time, I want to increase my numbers, I did around 1,2k over 2-3minutes without food/pots.

My friend showed me parse proof that he did around 1,4k as a MNK on Faust, and I'd really like it if I could get to his numbers >_>. Taking into consideration that our class should've better numbers than they do.

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Did he show you just the damage on faust or did he show you the overall elixir field cheese dps because i'm pretty damn sure monk can't hit 1400 on faust ST

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Did he show you just the damage on faust or did he show you the overall elixir field cheese dps because i'm pretty damn sure monk can't hit 1400 on faust ST

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I'm not quite sure whether it's adds bloating using elixir field or not, what I do know is he wasn't using Eso weapon, only the i180 weapon, and looking from the other members' dps parse they're dps-ing only Faust down.

He's one of the best MNK I've ever seen but this is just mathematically impossible, we got our perfect rotations and all.

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

He's one of the best MNK I've ever seen but this is just mathematically impossible, we got our perfect rotations and all.

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The thing about Faust is that 2/3 of the melee classes are doing incidental AOE as part of their single target rotation. If the person reporting the numbers isn't going out of their way to get to the Faust-only numbers, odds are very good that numbers are being inflated. Same is true of SMN. Think the only DPS classes that don't inflate are NIN and maybe BLM?

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Originally Posted by Greyfrost

May I ask the average / optimal output number as a Dragoon on A1 Faust? I'm using Brionac and some i190 armor, with 2.44s recast time, I want to increase my numbers, I did around 1,2k over 2-3minutes without food/pots.

My friend showed me parse proof that he did around 1,4k as a MNK on Faust, and I'd really like it if I could get to his numbers >_>. Taking into consideration that our class should've better numbers than they do.

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Holy crap I need to seriously up my game. I too got brionac and the proto chest which got me to i189. No food, party, or pots but I did just sub 1k.

That's terrible :(

What's the sweet spot for using invigorate?

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Holy crap I need to seriously up my game. I too got brionac and the proto chest which got me to i189. No food, party, or pots but I did just sub 1k.

That's terrible :(

What's the sweet spot for using invigorate?

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It's as soon as an ability puts you below 500 I think.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

What's the sweet spot for using invigorate?

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I was below i185 when I did 1,2k on Faust I believe, since I was late on doing Alexander, missed a few weeks.

Sweet spot for using invigorate is when you hit below 500TP, but if you think you can end the battle before you hit OR after that mark but soon, I'd rather save it.

On a side note, how do you guys manage to keep 590 Skill Speed (2.4s GCD) with these current gears? As I'm aware that when I'm upgrading my gears from i180>i190 (Alex) I'm losing Skill Speed, and got enchanced Accuracy stats instead.

My stats now is as followed : http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...cter/11826609/
As you can see with these gears, I'm getting 498 SS instead of the optimal +-590 SS, hence I'm sitting on 2.44s GCD.

That damage padding. anyone reporting over 1300DPS without an i200 weapon is reporting their padded DPS where their AOEs are hitting the adds.

I got a 1.5k Faust parse once, but my actual single target was 1250.

It must be my Geirskogul usage then, though I thought I was using it whenever is up. Gonna need to revisit what I'm doing wrong

If you're using ACT, go into the encounter, click on faust, go down to "incoming damage" -> Right Click -> "combatant info" or something and it'll show you the single target DPS on faust.

My single target DPS on a dummy is currently 1130-1150 without food, pots or party buff. I am i190, almost-full Gordian (only chest) +Asuran Slaying Ring using Antique Brionac. Is this about right? I appear to be getting 3 Geirskoguls a minute and 10s or so (due to a slight lack in skill speed). If not, where should I be? Will post a video if I'm really behind or anything for critique.

My Lodestone

Full prototype gordion set except asuran body and asuran ring, antiquated brionac should be 588 skill speed, first upgrade i would get after that (i'm in the same situation) is dragonlancer mezail(helmet) as if has a bunch of skill speed and like 50 DET which should balance out my sks issue. Only other loss of sks would be the pants because the af2 pants have lower sks than prototype gordion, so you'd need to balance that i think with one of the right side pieces, i forgot which.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I'm gonna rework a lot of the OP this week now I have time, don't worry my loves.

There's going to be A LOT of new info

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Awesome man, looking forward to it. Thanks for all the hard work you do! I also saw your post on the next page going over the math. So ~32 potency loss to not clip. Duly noted.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

It overwrites. It used to not let you overwrite with a weaker DoT back in 2.0 (no 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5). And it was horrible because anything you could do to get around this was horrible, potency-wise.

I'll leave the math alone for today, but not worth it. Clip it like your barber missed a spot.

Unfortunately, while it's perfectly possible with a good connection, it isn't an option for some people.

My connection to this game has been very good on the whole with pretty good ping, until about 2-3 weeks ago when I started getting lots of dropped packets somehow. WTFast often makes it worse than I used to get, but right now it's better than what I'd be getting without.

Due to BotD maintenance, this is a more complicated question than it used to be. It used to be that you could just assume that the slight delay wouldn't mess up your rotation significantly due to a built-in delay in buff applications, so the break even point on, say, Chaos Thrust really would be the intuitive 200 potency / 1 GCD = 250 potency / 1.25 GCDs.

If I were to hazard a guess, the Chaos Thrust clipping will mitigate a very slight delay in order to get a positional, but certain buff timers, especially Blood of the Dragon, wait for no one.

As far as the mentality goes that losing uptime is the greater of two evils... it's generally true in this game, but do bear in mind that for DRG, losing a combo is catastrophic.

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I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I don't have any packet loss from what I gleaned, so I'm not sure how I should tackle this issue or if I should just suck it up and 1gcd opener it.

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

@Kaldea, I did 947 on AS1 but I'm at 140-180 ping. I think a significant amount of damage loss from Dragoons comes from the adds and how quickly you can get back on the boss. Saving gap closers is ideal but not always a solution if resin baiting went awry. If you'd like Id be happy to discuss specific scenarios on that fight. I'm always looking to improve or help others.

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Thanks for responding, what ilvl did you do 947 on? I am generally good on the fights, with probably BotD and GSK usage probably being the only thing I need to optimize.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

in our opener we clip a bfb+ir+battle litany+pot ct with like x seconds with a fresh non buffed ct

are you sure that's more dps

from a potency perspective yes, clipping is higher but that doesn't really take into account the buffs

whats the math on doing ct ft ft on the opener and then trying to go back to the ct clipping after

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Yeah that's basically the question I was asking, that Dervy cleared up for us.

As for Optimal Gearing Paths, I've calculated the Weight Per/Eso so it's efficient. These are all i200, not i210. So if you are able to upgrade these items, it may vary for you.

Belt: 0.141024
Neck: 0.13916
Legs: 0.1370642
Head: 0.1368424
Boots: 0.1301414


So if you do not need accuracy, you should prioritise those items.

Nexts weeks upgrade should be the Belt, mandatory. Afterwards, your upgrade path all depends on your accuracy/skillspeed and your personal preferences.

If you don't need Accuracy:

Week 1: Weapon
Week 2: Belt
Week 3: You have 885 Tomes left over

If you don't need accuracy, you could go for the Helmet + Necklace for an immediate upgrade, or grab the Legs, which is the highest weighted single item.

Having said that, Legs have a weight of 113.078. Necklace has a weight of 52.185, and the Helmet is 67.737. So for the same cost as the Legs, you can get 119.992 weight on Week 3.

So, if you're going for the Helmet/Neck, over the Legs, you can change your upgrade path to this:

Week 1: Weapon
Week 2: Belt + Necklace
Week 3: You have 510 tomes left over, so you'll need to decide if you need more Accuracy or not.

If you don't need accuracy, you could go for the Helmet or save up another week for the Legs. Personally, I'd get the Helmet out of the way. But this will now mean you'll need to save up 2 weeks to get the Legs/Chest, so whilst you'll be heavily DPS geared, you're lacking on Defence/Vit.

If you need accuracy, you have the boots, which are god tier for Accuracy/DPS wise. Alternatively, you can save up another week and get the Chest.

So, you could make your upgrade path this:

Week 1: Weapon
Week 2: Belt
Week 3: Boots/Chest (depending on the amount of accuracy you need)

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Originally Posted by Dervy

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What about upgrading the Asuran Ring to the Esoterics Ring? Would that provide a greater difference/benefit than the Belt? I'm assuming based on not getting anything from Savage, thus no access to Savage ring.

How much acc is needed for Savage? I'm at nearly 700 now at i190.

If you're switching out the Asuran Ring for the Ardent Ring, then the Weight Per/Eso would be 0.137, which is still behind Belt, and necklace.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

How much acc is needed for Savage? I'm at nearly 700 now at i190.

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I can only confirm 587-590 for A1S (Front Accuracy)

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Originally Posted by Dervy

If you're switching out the Asuran Ring for the Ardent Ring, then the Weight Per/Eso would be 0.137, which is still behind Belt, and necklace.

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Thanks, Dervy! Does ~1130 DPS with Eso weapon sans food/pots/party buff sound reasonable to you by the way? Just trying to see if I'm messing up anything.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Thanks, Dervy! Does ~1130 DPS with Eso weapon sans food/pots/party buff sound reasonable to you by the way? Just trying to see if I'm messing up anything.

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You should be higher than that. Whats your ilvl?

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Originally Posted by spelley

Thanks, Dervy! Does ~1130 DPS with Eso weapon sans food/pots/party buff sound reasonable to you by the way? Just trying to see if I'm messing up anything.

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Should be closer to 1200 with broniac, no buffs I believe. I was at like 1170-1190 with hive weapon and no buffs.

How long are you parsing for?

A3S required alot of ACC like 620/630 or more for front(need to hit sometime on front like A1).
Full prototype is like this
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/8024701/
Miss to much acc. Next week i swap the 180 ring with the 210 gordian(if doesnt drop) trading 4 page and using acc foods, is the only way for now.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was doing a bit of number crunching with gear comparisons with stat weights and this is what I found, Assuming week 3 upgrade was weapon and week 4 was belt, with Cockatrice Meatball food.
Combined STR weight of:
1. Necklace week 4 and Helmet week 5: 1201.7
2. Chest Week 5: 1202.41
3. Legs Week 5: 1203.14

Personally, I'm going with option 3, it is only marginally better, but the full stats for the sets that week are:
1. STR: 968, ACC: 579, Crit: 585, Det: 487, SkS: 685
2. STR: 976, ACC: 679, Crit: 666, Det: 391, SkS: 617
3. STR: 968, ACC: 608, Crit: 692, Det: 437, SkS: 599

Again, this is all assuming you use Cockatrice Meatballs, alternative food choices change these statistics (obviously)

What's an optimal time to parse for?

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

What's an optimal time to parse for?

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Typically, right before your CDs line up again, for a realistic sustained dps parse. So like, 2 min 55 sec.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

What's the sweet spot for using invigorate?

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With minimal downtime it seems like Invig lines up well with BotD. I need it around the first time BotD comes off CD, and it lines up with every other BotD thereafter (60 sec/120 sec)

How do you guys AOE in A2, if at all?

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Originally Posted by Snoosky66

How do you guys AOE in A2, if at all?

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Personally I just single target the primary targets (Jagds > Gobwalkers > Hardminds > Widows) and only then if mobs are left will I bother with AoE. While you technically output more DPS using AOE, getting those primary targets down is simply more important and has the benefit of not wrecking your TP ....and the BLMs and SMNs will usually be enough to rip up the small adds. That's just my opinion, though.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

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This is good info, thanks for that. I have a question though. Where does the chest piece fit in? Because I'm still only rocking the Asuran chest (my current build http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/R7IB ). Seeing as getting the Eso one would be a 20 ilvl increase would that put it infront of the belt?

I really think for gearing options people should learn the answer for themselves.

I don't mean that to be facetious, I mean "here, I'll teach you how to make the decision yourself". Dervy doesn't know any more about the gear than you do, given the information in this thread.

1. You can find all the values of stats on gear etc from Ariyala and other resources.
2. You can calculate your own stat weights, or use the ones in this thread.
3. You can then figure out the values of these weights, divide by the esoteric cost, to find the most efficient upgrades.
4. You then should look at whether or not it is BiS, and whether or not you feel it is likely you will be able to earn or get to drop similar upgrades from savage.

Really it just seems lazy :<

Chest is brilliant if you need Accuracy, a lot of it.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

*snip*

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As someone who sometimes just frankly doesn't have the time or desire to do a bunch of calculations, the time other people spend making BiS lists and efficiency calculations = more time I can actually spend playing the game. If someone takes 10 minutes to write this down and figure stuff out, like Dervy has, and even just 6 people read it...

10min * 6 = an hour of play time

It's just more efficient. On top of that, the more people who actually provide this information, the more they can swap knowledge which can result in better data which can then be shared, and reduces time wasted. If everyone is doing their own thing and not sharing (because why share if everyone is expected to do it themselves?), knowledge growth is diminished. It's basically the equivalent of saying that people shouldn't make EX Primal guides. All the knowledge share is doing is reducing wasted time.

In the end, of course, unless you are doing Alexander Savage it doesn't matter one bit WHAT you buy first, as every other piece of content is easily doable regardless of how close you are to BiS. My own personal goals revolve mostly around glamour. Which is why I'm going:

Weapon -> Belt -> Body -> Boots -> Gloves -> Head -> Pants. Reasoning? Body -> Boots -> Gloves makes up the majority of your visible glamour.

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Originally Posted by spelley

On top of that, the more people who actually provide this information, the more they can swap knowledge which can result in better data which can then be shared, and reduces time wasted. If everyone is doing their own thing, knowledge growth is diminished.

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This statement seems a little contradictory.. But maybe you mean people doing their own thing without sharing. Not trying to fan the flames but I'd just like to say the more time a person with the knowledge and expertise such as Dervy spends answering questions, the less time he has to contribute new findings. Nothing wrong with reading a few pages to see if your question has already been answered or being given the methodology to find the answer yourself. Experts need time to do experty things after all. Dervy is the face of the franchise, so to speak, but many people here are able to answer questions and provide insight.

I'm in near full 190 (200 weapon, 180 legs/ring), and I'm at 575 accuracy. Upgrading to the belt would be a loss of 36 accuracy. Upgrading to the necklace is another 36 accuracy loss. Helm is another 47 accuracy loss.

Not having the prototype legs (I went for the chest first, and took the wrong drop on an A3, so I can't get 190 legs until next week) puts me a 54 accuracy deficit, and the 200 legs won't have accuracy on them anyway.

For me, it looks like going boots and ring might be the best route, as that will bring me to 601 accuracy, and with baked pipira pira, I should be pretty good for accuracy.

Alternatively, if I get the 190 legs next week, I can go boots + belt, which puts me at 613 accuracy, or I can go for belt+ body + helm, which puts me at 632 accuracy and 625 skill speed. Unfortunately, the body has so much accuracy that it's probably not worth equipping until I have all three of those pieces.

Hmm, what to do.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

This statement seems a little contradictory.. But maybe you mean people doing their own thing without sharing.

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Yes, sometimes I am dumb and speak words bad. Because dumb. Will edit to clarify.

As far as I guess I'll call it "expert prioritization" goes, it depends on whether he was going to make those calculations *anyways.* Most of the time it's stuff he is figuring out because, well, he also wants to know for himself as well. It honestly doesn't take much extra time to write stuff down usually. Obviously the long-form explanation of the rotation and such on the first couple posts is a different story (I'm sure with editing/clarifying/updating it took a good chunk of time) but most other things are just posting the bare-bones results of stuff he was finding out anyway.

Also: you aren't fanning any flames :) This is a pretty civil discussion I'm personally finding.

Nono, you're both right. But it's precisely why I don't answer questions like that, as I simply don't know them. Gearing is something that is very personal. I can only say "Hey, this is optimal, this gives X DPS!!", but that's it. I can't offer personal advice, only stuff that's "broad"

The only upgrade order that can remotely be considered universal is only for people who don't and won't raid. Because then you don't have accuracy concerns or a random drop element messing with it.

Otherwise you're potentially getting (and, next week at the earliest, buying) drops, which conspires along with accuracy to create a chaotic system.

I am just a jerk who is here to point out jerk things to people.

I haven't done my job if someone isn't offended.

I mention doing the stat stuff yourself because in the long run it will make you a better player. Perhaps more questioning motivations behind optimizations instead of blindly listening to what may be an erroneous suggestion. Doing so encourages discussion and that leads to better performance all around.

Like I say for my sim, I love it when people say stuff like "this is stupid and wrong" because it is far more useful than "yes-men" commentary.

Can you tell me how much DPS you guys do on A1 Savage boss?