Alpha First Look: Video 5 - Quests and Combat

HI BEL! <3

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Originally Posted by Darshu

Battle is a main concern in a RPG game. I don't think 1% of you here denies it, or dislikes it even. We play RGPs because we enjoy fighting monsters as something other than real people. Every RPG in the past lvled you through battle, and if you didn't enjoy it, then it's hard to believe you're here playing XIV. Some may like battle more than others, who also enjoy a good story, mini games, humor, cutscenes. But you have to enjoy battle to some degree. You also have to enjoy a challenge. Until now, games were meant to challenge us, some more, some less. But challenge already means getting you our of your comfort zone. Questing like that doesn't. It doesn't require you to play your role well in a battle, and it doesn't require you to interact with other players in a battle (note how I said _require_). Requiring it is important to make something engaging. If battles are important, questing is the main mode of lv progression, and questing isn't engaging, the game is pretty much screwed.

Battles in XI were the best a MMO has ever had. You can all disagree or argue with me, but no other game I know ever challenged you in such a way. You had to know your job to really succeed, you had to know everyone else's jobs, be aware of a lot of stuff. It was tense, engaging and rewarding when done right. It was also time consuming. I've reached high lv characters in most other games I played, and I never knew their role to the extent I knew mine in XI (because I didn't need to). Nor have I ever encountered difficulty when lvling in any of those games to the point I had to stop everything else and really focus. Arguing that XI's battle is not harder than others is silly. I don't think it can be denied.

But what does that difficulty accomplish? It bonds you to the players you're partying with. As someone else has mentioned here, XI parties were incredibly social. The game's social aspect was deep because of it. There was much frustration in the dunes, qufim, citadel. It was also memorable when you succeeded. I'm sure those who've played through that have very vivid, fond memories of great parties, more than they have of any other game. Now, how many memories can you really get out of lvling from 1 to 50 through a questing system such as this? Remember, this is not something you can just ignore, it's the main way of lv progression.

Did you not enjoy fighting in past games? Is fighting not a main aspect of a MMORPG? Then how can you prefer quest grinding, where you put little effort into your job and battles are usually fast and easy, over party based monster grinding, where you will put all of your skills to use, feel useful, have your new equipment put to the test, tighten bonds with party mates? This isn't supposed to be quest grinding over RO style of monster grinding, even though I personally would prefer that even over quest grinding, mainly because it was very challenging if you wanted a good exp rate. I think my main point and concern is quest grinding is rarely ever challenging. And if this is the main way through which we will evolve, then it can't be dismissed with arguments such as "Not every content has to be challenging". SURE! Make sidequests relaxing, interesting, about exploration, with minigames, or easy battles with a nice story (just the way it was in 1.0). Because those we CAN avoid and won't be doing them much if we don't want to. Make levequests easy and fast to get through, just the way it was in 1.0. But not the main tool of lvling up.

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First time post on this forum, but I have to say, this is a great post that should be acknowledged. It basically sums up my feelings on how you build a strong social community in an MMO. I was also a long time FFXI player and reflecting back on those early parties, whether they were good or bad, I found you always came out with at least one new relationship. By the time you capped out your first job, you struggled to go anywhere where you couldn't find someone you had either partied or completed a common quest (Limit break quests for example) with. Those experiences built such a terrific social aspect to the game that FFXIV 1.0 could not compare to. I'm guilty in part of wanting a revival of an FFXI style of game, but I recognize that this game needs to be something unique in itself and solo ability has become more desirable for many MMO players.

My main fear is that FF will lose that rich social community if the game becomes too "soloable". Questing for xp should be an option, but I agree that it should not be the main and most effective way of levelling. Partying for experience should always play a big role in the game from early stages, otherwise you will create a community of self serving individuals which in my opinion is all WoW ever was, and not what this game should be about. I've heard the argument over and over that the game needs to be easier to play for those who don't have very much time, but to what extent? I would be so sorely disappointed if the game were to cater to those people and if the difficulty and team work was removed for the sheer sake of convenience. The game needs to be challenging and it needs to develop a strong community if they want it to last as long as XI did.

There was so much more to be had from problem solving with other players and learning your role on a team. Gamers are not stupid (especially not Final Fantasy players!) and I hope SE can get away from that trend in the MMO world of treating us like we are. At times I get the sense that SE is trying to run away from their own creation and emulate WoW instead of improving on the foundation they had laid out with XI. FFXI may have had it's shortcomings but the good definitely outweighs the bad.

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Originally Posted by Belgarion

something i cant wrap my mind around, is why peole start to hate a game that is still in development and testingphase. Its a Alpha quest for crying out loud, even i can see the tester/player is way to overpowered on level then this quest is written for

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No one is hating the game in this forum. People are expressing the fact that some of the directions Development appears to be going are not what they want in an MMO.

No one is complaining about how easy the fights are in the Demo. People are upset that it appears as though Quests are going to be extraordinarily simple, without any depth of lore, world or character development, and point players to the exact location of every objective instead of requiring some level of effort.

Ultimately I still have to say I like the video it is showing us aspects of the game. As for the people who are thrashing about quest leveling being the only option I have yet to see where they are gaining any validity in this from a teaser video. They have yet to release anything that says you HAVE to quest to level. If a quest yields 150 xp bonus for completing it and takes a few minutes does that mean that it will make exp parties obsolete? No it doesn't, it just allows for another outlet for something to do. Biggest complaint I hear in MMORPG's lately is "NOT ENOUGH TO DO". So even if the quest seems simple, it is something to do to help feel like you are in a world. FF11 did have questing wrong in the fact that it was almost worthless outside of quick gil or quick reputation gains. But, it did make you feel for the boy running around Sandy trying to find someone to help his sick grandmother. I am hoping for world developement from the quests in this meaning but having more meaning to the efforts.

Too many questions, not enough answers. Patience is a virtue, something we all need more practice with, including myself. Perhaps my desire to just have the game released already will be just a detrimental as those wishing to change things at theis stage of development.

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On the topic of questing, I actually prefer the quest based approach to the "hey, lets get together and kill this type of badguy for the sole purpose of leveling." Even though it is pretty predictable to talk to a farmer and have him tell me X monster is destroying his crops, please bring me 10 fangs to show me you helped clear some out, I much prefer to have a reason to be killing the monsters. Lol, PETA would be soooo upset at these pointless parties killing for "sport", just look at their attacks on Mario 3 and Pokemon (google PETA and Mario/Pokemon). I jest about PETA getting upset though.

I can also see why people would be tired of this kind of thing as it has been done to death. Especially if you have played "every MMO out there" cause thats a lot of MMO's. Several things that have me wondering though,
There will be a set amount of quests in the game.
Designed to help you raise your level.
To what extent will these gopher quests be repeatable?
I do the first 10 levels worth of quests to get me familiarized with the game then i change jobs, Will i again be forced to go through all of those tutorial quests? I'm no longer a new character, would they really make me do the "learn how to walk quest" "learn how to accept a quest quest" "help the local people quests" To what extent will these quests be repeatable?
Am i to do the same 10 levels worth of quests with each class or after finishing a quest with one class, is it finished for good? Wouldnt the repeatable stuff be the levequests? I would be fine with having to do all these "hand holding" quests so long as they are for a single class\job. the exception being class/job specific quests which would more likely not be "cookie cutter" quests. Something this MMO does differently than others I have played (havent played many mind you so please tell me others that do) is it allows you to changed your class\job without needing to start a new character and avoid the need to go through the tutorial and basic questing stuff. Also, whats to stop me from skipping all the filler hand holding quests and just doing the pivotal milestone quests that develop story and class/job progression. I only hope they make it so we can telll the difference between filler and important quests.

i know that in 1.0 once i did the quest it wouldnt come back if i changed my class/job, and this makes sense. I dont know if this will change come ARR but it seems a little redundent. Hold my hand with my first class/job up to endgame, ok. after that i get to grind with levequests and dungeon runs and mob grinding, awesome. Hold my hand through every class/job, whats the point of playing... Does this express the most of the concern with questing or do some people just not want this type of thing period? Am i over thinking this whole thing? Most likely. Cant wait to play the game and actually see how it handles and plays, with any luck the beta will give us all a better picture.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I could do it with a group of friends, but when I want to an experience party I like to do it with different people to make even more in-game friends.

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I'm sure there are party quests, too.
Something like "United we stand" (sabotage quest) or "Kill a raven" (kill quest)

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Originally Posted by Belgarion

Something I cant wrap my mind around, is why people start to hate a game that is still in development and testing phase. Its a Alpha quest for crying out loud, even I can see the tester/player is way to overpowered on level then this quest is written for. Be glad someone takes the effort to show how things are looking, and makes a effort to bring it to the outside world to the fans.

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The majority of the way a game will feel, quality aside, is present before alpha. They're what you intend to build, and moreover the actual priorities you place in different areas when resources are limited.

You're building a machine. You have the schematics, and a one-fifth done prototype. Which do you think I'm looking at?

Granted, the schematics don't say what you'll do when things come to worse. But the way you've handled things so far do tell me that. That's why the alpha starts these points of concern.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The majority of the way a game will feel, quality aside, is present before alpha. They're what you intend to build, and moreover the actual priorities you place in different areas when resources are limited.

You're building a machine. You have the schematics, and a one-fifth done prototype. Which do you think I'm looking at?

Granted, the schematics don't say what you'll do when things come to worse. But the way you've handled things so far do tell me that. That's why the alpha starts these points of concern.

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It is not however present in a 5 min video. In actual fact I completely disagree anyway, you can't really judge how a game such as this feels until you have played through the whole leveling curve, at least in the context of the this discussion.

Experience Points Party.



http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Experience_Points
And in case you missed it:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Level_Grinding