How to Dragoon Per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by PaiiNx

I dont know if is a know issue but sometime after fullthrust/chaosthrust with BotD active the 4th doesnt proc. Its rare that happend but is annoyng...

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Happens with me also. And, as for everything that happens for me, I blame lag spikes. In some point of the rotation, the server and your client lose sync and the server does not record the comboed FT/CT. That's what I belive.

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Originally Posted by PaiiNx

I dont know if is a know issue but sometime after fullthrust/chaosthrust with BotD active the 4th doesnt proc. Its rare that happend but is annoyng...

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Does it usually happen in the Neverreap on the finally boss? It wont proc or continue a combo if the mob goes invulnerable, which happens to me often on the giant snake at the end. The boss is targetable but the invulnerability wont continue the combo.

The worst i've experienced is when the dotted line around combo skills does not show up even though the combo is indeed active. I've also had times where I hit BotD and it won't activate. I also just attribute it to random lag. :/

Yes the dotted line issue is from lag.

Very noticeable when it flashes the border and you go to queue the skill, but you are lagged from the server so it desyncs, cancels your queue'd skill, but does not resume the flash.

You'll have to pay attention to your buff bar to be sure which ability is proccing.

Whats your guys' policy on weaving in Jump? If Jump becomes available in the middle of a gcd, i almost invariably have to delay it until the next GCD due to it have a super annoyingly long animation lock. But sometimes i instinctively hit it towards the end of a gcd, as is my habit for other buff abilities when they become available, and it ends up delaying me 0.5s. Actually, in general, if like internal release and blood 4 blood comes up towards the end of a strong gcd like full thrust, do you delay it for the next, or eat thr 0.5s delay. This really just pertains to jump because IR/LS/PS i can weave even a few fractions of a second before a GCD, but jump i cant :/

I usually delay it til the next but have noticed the need to be careful around CT or FT so you don't jump and get locked into the wrong positional. Dervy mentioned the best places for B4B are after HT and after VT, I try to stick to that if I'm in the neighborhood.

Just pop BotD off-cooldown. Never hold it. I wouldn't even delay it by a second either.

As for jumps, if Jump is available when you're more than half way through your GCD, don't use it. High risk of clipping your GCD.

What I do is hold BOTD if I start a combo with 22+ seconds left on the buff since I can GK without dropping the buff. That way I can do combo+GK --> combo+GK (BOTD falls off with GK) + BOTD --> combo+GK --> combo... In other words, normally you can use GK every other combo without dropping the buff; but if I save BOTD for a combo where using GK would drop the buff, I can use an extra GK where I normally wouldn't and get 2 in a row and the free GK from BOTD makes it 3. If I were to use BOTD during a combo where I could normally use GK, I'd only get 2.5 GKs from 3 combos instead of 3 from 3 combos.

I think the only value of using the BOTD skill, outside of considering delays in attacking like movement, boss jumps, etc., is the free GK, so this is the best use for it in that regard.

So, regarding the AoE rotation, i came to this :

pick a primary target and do this : Battle Litany --> Heavy Thrust --> Blood for Blood --> Ring of Thorns --> Internal Release --> Doomspike --> Dragonfire Dive --> DS --> Blood of the Dragon --> DS --> Power Surge --> DS --> Jump --> DS --> Spineshatter Dive --> DS --> Motivation --> Repeat.

What do you think ?

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Originally Posted by enil

You can hit 1.4k+ with no Doomspike/RoT thorn usage w/ 0 paeon. Just optimize your GK usage and have a good driver that's good at putting up vulnerability stacks.

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Yeah, I've seen some 1400s around. I'll work on that. Thanks!

So I see the min. sks requirement on the OP went from 58x to 57x. Is there a reason this changed or just found out 57x is enough? Also thanks again for this thread Dervy, this should help me catch up on my dragoon skills. ^^

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

So I see the min. sks requirement on the OP went from 58x to 57x. Is there a reason this changed or just found out 57x is enough? Also thanks again for this thread Dervy, this should help me catch up on my dragoon skills. ^^

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Actually, it's currently 590, because of the necessity for our GCD to be 2.4 seconds, allowing Gierskogul to be used with 22 seconds left at the time of BotD refresh to get back around to our 4th ability safely.

Well the BiS for 624-64x acc only has 571 sks in the OP. The acc cap for A3 and A4 are for sure in that range. I just switched to dragoon, so Im behind on gear and trying to see what I need to obtain.

get your weapon ROFL

you don't gotta figure out anything until 3 weeks later

actually yeah your skillspeed things are weird

you have

WD STR ACC CRT DET SS GCD DPS Weight
76 1079 624 858 442 634 2.396 1486.874505 1728.292

WD STR ACC CRT DET SS GCD DPS Weight
76 1079 624 858 481 576 2.396 1485.933072 1727.894

hows the gcd same

Yeah thats what I was wondering.

i mean i'm approaching 800 skillspeed ROFL

i got other issues

Lol just give me some of that

Hello fellow Dragoons !

I have a little question for you :3

When we have to kill adds which have a low hp pool (for instance during A1 savage), what's the best rotation to use ? HT (if needed), impulse drive, dis, ct , 4th or the other one ?

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

hows the gcd same

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Typo. Opps. I was copy-pasting a lot of things.

Anyway, I've been fiddling around with my Model and playing with 570 SS even in savage for the past few days, which is 2.418 GCD. Risky, but doable.

The only issue is that it really does require strict timing, clever use of your gap closers to ensure you're not delaying GCDs and knowledge of when to drop Phlebotomize/Heavy Thrust in favour for BotD up-time. You have to play the job perfectly with 570 skillspeed.

Having said that, from what I've heard of A3S, for Dragoons, I do not believe it'll work. If there's a DRG in A3S pls try it with 570ish SS for giggles and see what it feels like. No need for mechanics spoilers and ruin it for the World 1st Club, just "yes, no"... So I might scrap that.

Either way, they're just the sets for the Accuracy Ranges, and as we don't know what the Accuracy Requirements are, they pretty much mean nothing and are there to look pretty. The only set that's "confirmed" for A1S is the first set, as the accuracy range for that set is like 570-596, and the A1S accuracy is between 587-590.

Monk had 586 with Flint Caviars and had 98% accuracy.

But yeah, I posted the "less risky" set on the OP if you want to take a look at it.

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Originally Posted by Cakey

Yeah, I've seen some 1400s around. I'll work on that. Thanks!

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Hit 1500 tonight!

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Having said that, from what I've heard of A3S, for Dragoons, I do not believe it'll work. If there's a DRG in A3S pls try it with 570ish SS for giggles and see what it feels like. No need for mechanics spoilers and ruin it for the World 1st Club, just "yes, no"... So I might scrap that

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Its terrible with 570 sks. That's why I was asking lol.

Well put it this way. The difference between 570 and 590 is 0.0005 GCD.

0.0005 * 10 = 0.005 total seconds difference to complete one GCD loop.

590 is 2.413 GCD. 590 is still awful in that sense. Either way, I've put another set up there.

Thanks dervy, and yeah the difference is minimum, but for me I'd rather have a little more sks cause it gets pretty clunky with 57x, Atleast from what I noticed.

Just wanted to weigh in my personal observations on this whole skill speed business. I ran alex and got boots, helmet, and gloves which I'm currently sitting on right now. The gloves were a real pain because they dropped my skill speed pretty low and I couldn't use them without dropping to 2.41 GCD time. So I splurged on a ring and a necklace, meaning I'll be a week behind other people who went for the weapon first probably doing less dps but I'd rather be hitting that 4th combo personally. That's just how I feel comfortable, but anyway I finally got to use my gloves and I'm sitting right at 604 skill speed.

So just as an experiment, I put on my i180 ring in place of my i200 ring which dropped my skill speed by 7 points, meaning from 604 to 597 and it dropped the GCD to 2.41. From what I can tell if you want that 2.40 you need at least 600 but I'm not a math wizard like Dervy so I'm not sure if that 7 points of ss is gonna make an actual difference.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Having said that, from what I've heard of A3S, for Dragoons, I do not believe it'll work. If there's a DRG in A3S pls try it with 570ish SS for giggles and see what it feels like. No need for mechanics spoilers and ruin it for the World 1st Club, just "yes, no"... So I might scrap that.

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Any level of skill speed that would be sufficient for a dummy rotation wouldn't change anything I'm doing in there.

(insert surreptitious congratulations for hak and yan here)

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Originally Posted by Ilyanat

From what I can tell if you want that 2.40 you need at least 600..

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Min skill speed for 2.40 gcd is 599. The difference will be a bit a breathing room. At 2.41 you can't have any disconnects or delays

I'm in a similar boat, using 180 gloves instead of 190 cuz sksp.. Will change a bit this week tho with reset and new weapon :)

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Any level of skill speed that would be sufficient for a dummy rotation wouldn't change anything I'm doing in there.

(insert surreptitious congratulations for hak and yan here)

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Thanks sunny!

so what skill speed should we be sitting at ideally? Especially for savage? im sitting at 602 ilvl 181. I know thats going to more the likely fluctuate when i get more of the 190 armor. My 190 armor im sitting on is head and waist and all 190 accessories besides one ring.

600-630 is a safe range.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Any level of skill speed that would be sufficient for a dummy rotation wouldn't change anything I'm doing in there.

(insert surreptitious congratulations for hak and yan here)

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Just checking cause I've heard a lot of things from another DRG on A3S and I'm not actually on the fight myself, so I can't confirm anything. He said, she said, kinda things, ya know?

And yeah, congrats on World 4th/6th Hak + Ricky

Hey all,

I have a few quick questions, as I begin to really tighten up my play:

1) DoTs - How do they work if you overwrite a B4B buffed CT with a non-buffed CT. I know it doesn't roll DoTs, so does it simply overwrite and you lose that buffed damage on those leftover ticks? Does it acknowledge it's a lesser DoT and ignore it? I don't think I've ever seen the latter behavior.

2) Building off #1 then, we've established that clipping is more PPS, but if losing 1.9 (maybe possibly 2 ticks of a B4B buffed DoT) does it stand to benefit to use the TTT x2 and suffer the minor downtime of Disembowel/CT when under B4B? The reason I mention is occasionally I'll try it and my DPS does tend to stay up a little higher, but my testing is anecdotal at best, unsubstantiated at worst. This is ignoring the DPS gain to MCH/BRD.

3) Even though my ping is super low ~24 (based off pinging the server directly and this value is almost identical to the one I see in the network resources in Task Manager) I still get what appears to be fairly significant GCD clipping when using double oGCD. I suppose I could be mashing faster, but as a top world ranking Ret in WoW I'd posit that my mashing skills are pretty solid. Any thoughts on this? I may try WTFast to see if there's a difference even though I don't think I need it. I use Comcast Cable - not FIOS.

4) How much time is ok to wait to hit a positional? I.e. in A1S I'm about to hit CT, but we're stacked on the right side. Do I hit it, or wait the requisite .25-.5 seconds and hit the positional? What if it's longer, like ~1 full second to hit positional? In WoW maximizing GCD usage brought maximum DPS, but there were no potency differences for positions so I'm not sure how to accurately calculate which would be ideal. Logic tells me that unless I can hit the positional very quickly to get the bonus potency it may be better just to fire it off (worst case being -90 potency, but 90 is still less than say 150 if I miss an entire GCD by delaying. In which case it could potentially add up to a significant amount over an 8 minute fight. Thoughts?

5) SkS - I know we should have ~600, but I've been raiding ~ like 550 so far, cleared A1S ~900 dps @ i187 (hq x pots & hq truffle risotto), with far from perfect execution. I think I even remember reading a post here that someone gained a ton of DPS by finally getting the correct amount of SkS. I should have the SkS tonight by snagging the Alex chest & legs. Just curious on this as well. To clarify my question on this one, I guess what I'd like to know is what DPS other DRG's are doing on the fight, and what their SkS value/ilvl is to just kinda plot it out for my own knowledge.

What happened to the bullet points for GK timing on the 1st page? The one that wasn't just listing 'use after 1st chaos' but was more about generally safe times to use GK based on different timers? Just replaced with 'as long as you're above 21'..? Which doesn't seem to apply to me either. It's more like 23 for me and I'm not not queuing my gcds.

Never trust a 22, that's what I tell people.

I'm gonna rework a lot of the OP this week now I have time, don't worry my loves.

There's going to be A LOT of new info

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

1) DoTs - How do they work if you overwrite a B4B buffed CT with a non-buffed CT. I know it doesn't roll DoTs, so does it simply overwrite and you lose that buffed damage on those leftover ticks? Does it acknowledge it's a lesser DoT and ignore it? I don't think I've ever seen the latter behavior.

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It overwrites. It used to not let you overwrite with a weaker DoT back in 2.0 (no 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5). And it was horrible because anything you could do to get around this was horrible, potency-wise.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

2) Building off #1 then, we've established that clipping is more PPS, but if losing 1.9 (maybe possibly 2 ticks of a B4B buffed DoT) does it stand to benefit to use the TTT x2 and suffer the minor downtime of Disembowel/CT when under B4B? The reason I mention is occasionally I'll try it and my DPS does tend to stay up a little higher, but my testing is anecdotal at best, unsubstantiated at worst. This is ignoring the DPS gain to MCH/BRD.

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I'll leave the math alone for today, but not worth it. Clip it like your barber missed a spot.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

3) Even though my ping is super low ~24 (based off pinging the server directly and this value is almost identical to the one I see in the network resources in Task Manager) I still get what appears to be fairly significant GCD clipping when using double oGCD. I suppose I could be mashing faster, but as a top world ranking Ret in WoW I'd posit that my mashing skills are pretty solid. Any thoughts on this? I may try WTFast to see if there's a difference even though I don't think I need it. I use Comcast Cable - not FIOS.

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Unfortunately, while it's perfectly possible with a good connection, it isn't an option for some people.

My connection to this game has been very good on the whole with pretty good ping, until about 2-3 weeks ago when I started getting lots of dropped packets somehow. WTFast often makes it worse than I used to get, but right now it's better than what I'd be getting without.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

4) How much time is ok to wait to hit a positional? I.e. in A1S I'm about to hit CT, but we're stacked on the right side. Do I hit it, or wait the requisite .25-.5 seconds and hit the positional? What if it's longer, like ~1 full second to hit positional? In WoW maximizing GCD usage brought maximum DPS, but there were no potency differences for positions so I'm not sure how to accurately calculate which would be ideal. Logic tells me that unless I can hit the positional very quickly to get the bonus potency it may be better just to fire it off (worst case being -90 potency, but 90 is still less than say 150 if I miss an entire GCD by delaying. In which case it could potentially add up to a significant amount over an 8 minute fight. Thoughts?

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Due to BotD maintenance, this is a more complicated question than it used to be. It used to be that you could just assume that the slight delay wouldn't mess up your rotation significantly due to a built-in delay in buff applications, so the break even point on, say, Chaos Thrust really would be the intuitive 200 potency / 1 GCD = 250 potency / 1.25 GCDs.

If I were to hazard a guess, the Chaos Thrust clipping will mitigate a very slight delay in order to get a positional, but certain buff timers, especially Blood of the Dragon, wait for no one.

As far as the mentality goes that losing uptime is the greater of two evils... it's generally true in this game, but do bear in mind that for DRG, losing a combo is catastrophic.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

So, regarding the AoE rotation, i came to this :

pick a primary target and do this : Battle Litany --> Heavy Thrust --> Blood for Blood --> Ring of Thorns --> Internal Release --> Doomspike --> Dragonfire Dive --> DS --> Blood of the Dragon --> DS --> Power Surge --> DS --> Jump --> DS --> Spineshatter Dive --> DS --> Motivation --> Repeat.

What do you think ?

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Sorry for the repost but I really would like some thoughts from you guys XD

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Sorry for the repost but I really would like some thoughts from you guys XD

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What is motivation?

Also, I did this and used invigorate where motivation is since I'm assuming that's what you meant. As a whole I prefer to just single target and cycle through enemies while blasting geirskoguls as they're available. I find it's far more tp efficient. In AS2 I never use Doomspike simply for the fact that I don't know how available a paeon will be and I need to conserve as much tp as possible

@Kaldea, I did 947 on AS1 but I'm at 140-180 ping. I think a significant amount of damage loss from Dragoons comes from the adds and how quickly you can get back on the boss. Saving gap closers is ideal but not always a solution if resin baiting went awry. If you'd like Id be happy to discuss specific scenarios on that fight. I'm always looking to improve or help others.

in our opener we clip a bfb+ir+battle litany+pot ct with like x seconds with a fresh non buffed ct

are you sure that's more dps

from a potency perspective yes, clipping is higher but that doesn't really take into account the buffs

whats the math on doing ct ft ft on the opener and then trying to go back to the ct clipping after

HT -> ID -> Dis -> CT -> 4th -> Phl -> TT -> VT -> FT -> 4th -> HT -> TT -> VT -> FT -> 4th -> Phl -> ID -> Dis -> CT

Note you're just changing CT -> FT -> CT -> FT to CT -> FT -> FT -> CT, so total direct damage potency is the same looking at this window, you're just looking at the debuffs.

Dis drops after 30 seconds before the second Phl and CT drops at the second ID

You only get 2-3 ticks more of the buffed CT dot. I'm assuming all the buffs stacked is about 50% of 70-105 potentcy, so 35 to 52.5 potency. I am pulling that out of my hat because I don't know the actual math on the total damage boost from stacking everything at once.

CT dot drops for 7.5s, losing 2-3 ticks (70-105 potency) and Disembowel drops for 3 GCDs worth 570 potency total (the second Phl and CT combo). Disembowel debuff is 11.1% damage increase, so ~62 potency lost. That is not counting if there is a MCH or BRD. 3 GCDs for MCH/BRD is at least 450 potency, so you're losing ~50 potency on their attacks in that window.

You lose 132-167 potency due to dropping Disembowel and CT dot, to gain ~52.5 potency on the unclipped buffed dot. You lose even more if you have a MCH/BRD.

This math is pretty napkin and has a lot of assumptions/errors but its pretty clear its a net loss.

That's also something I was going to investigate. Let's do the math.

Think of it this way, if you have 1000 str (which we all approximately do), then a Draconian Potion is roughly a 10% damage increase according to my damage model. Try it out for yourself, the model is in the OP.

Let's assume we have 800 CRT (which we're basing this off), which is 15.3% CRT and 1.55228 CRT Damage Mod, (1+0.55228*(15.3%+10%+15%)) = 1.223, along with 2.414 GCD, which is 590SS.

So, it's 70*1.3*1.15*1.1*1.223 = 140.78565 potency for x2 CT ticks, which we're potentially clipping.

When we don't clip and do idc ttt ttt, we miss out 2 skills being buffed by DIS (ID + DIS) and 1.9 ticks of CT.

So, this is ((180+220)*1.15*1.3*0.1) + (35*1.9*1.15*1.3) = 159.2175 * (1+0.55228*15.3%) = 172.7 Potency.

172.7 - 140.7 = 32 Potency net loss.