Loose use of the term "eliteist"

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Originally Posted by DwightParkman

I agree with OP.

Western Progression has single handed-ly killed mmorpgs.

And the biggest truth of it all is, because of how lazy people have become.

since when did being a good gamer that tries his very best suddenly become the hyperbole term Elitist?

This is no different then saying people that are hard workers at their job, and are good at it are assholes who dont deserve their job, but instead the lazy high schoolers that spit in peoples foods for fun deserve the job.

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I see some people never change.

Wow, so many angry bads in here. You may, and probably will, call me elitist. There is truth to the elitist point of view and in your blind flames you miss the point. Let me try to get some analogies for you.

1) If I'm going to school and the teacher breaks the class up into groups for an assignment and I'm the only one that read the textbook and the hyperactive kid keeps eating sugar and poking the other girl in the group in the eye. I'm not going to be having a good time. I would be elitist for telling him that hes bad tho right?

2) We decide to form a team for a bowling league. My average is 280. Your average is 160. I will probably not be having fun when we lose to the other team by 20 pins. I say something (i know rude right?) and now I'm looking down on you and I'm an elitist.

Lol what an elitist.

3) We are in Duty Finder dungeon and I have already said 3 times to press T to get my target but you continue to DPS the one that isn't begin aggroed by my tank. The healer is forced to break off and heal you which makes me have to pop defensive cooldowns. Hell, I might have to switch targets to pull the damn thing off you. Now my taunt is down and when the healer pulls aggro from the third mob because he had to heal you back up I don't have taunt up anymore, he dies and we wipe and I take the blame.

In conclusion, I don't like you. You make everything harder on me because you fail to take any responsibility for yourself much less the group as an entity of people ho all want to win the event and move on. No, your too concerned about how it's a game and you should be having fun. You are not allowing me to have fun, you are not allowing the other 6 people to have fun.

Learn how to listen, learn your responsibilities or how about this, don't join group quests. I know, I know you are't listening to me, you don't care what I or anyone else thinks or says, it's me that is the elitist after all.

Damn no account entitled people make me mad.

If you are "Elite" Why would you need to use DF? Wouldnt you find an Elite Free Company full of other Elite people, so you can run dungeons in your Elite way?

Sorry, not trying to trivialize your issue. I have been in that situation before, Titan fight comes to mind and WHM getting knocked off every single time. As pissed off as I was and how much I screamed at my monitor, I kept my cool in game, continued to offer advise and ended up beating it. (Check out this thread for more details.) I think the defining trait of the undesirable "elite" player is not their supposed skill but how they handle the situation. Not what you say, but how you say it. Not trying to white knight anything, only providing the other side of the argument.

Just my 2gil.

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Originally Posted by Huxer

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Damn no account entitled people make me mad.

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You are a shining beacon of hope in this place.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

Not at all, you are wrong.

If you don't have level 49 gear and you're doing level 50 content designed for people wearing level 50 gear, you're doing it all wrong, and you shouldn't even be there.

SE is adding an ilevel requirement to que for dungeons.

I guess the company that MAKES the game is elitist too.

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WoW kiddies pls go

As someone that was a "silent elitist" in Final Fantasy XI, I feel I can contribute to this discussion by sharing my past experiences and mindset. The purpose of my post is to try to help people understand this mindset. This is not a defense post.

From the onset, the problems stem from a person's objectives - clearing content, getting loot, having fun with friends, seeing new things, being carried, etc. The objective is different for everyone, and is one of the primary reasons people don't mesh well. For example, a couple of people think wiping on Ifrit HM is exhilarating or inspiring, whereas the rest of the group might hate it. One might be watching a movie in the background, because "its just a game." There is no right or wrong answer here, because nobody can tell you how to live your life. This is where most people have trouble.

From there, other problems exist that are core to any game design. One of those is mathematics.

When you have content that is based around a gear check, you depend on your healers to be putting out "X" amount of heals per second, on your DPS to properly execute their rotations and put out "Y" amount of damage, and your tank to manage cooldowns and have a basic level of HP to survive. In Final Fantasy XI, I used to play a Red Mage. When I casted an enfeeble on an HNM, there was a check. If I met the required stats/numbers, I was successful; otherwise, I was not. There is no personal skill in casting the spell - there is only a mathematical check to determine if it takes effect.

This is where, for me, elitism comes in. When you have enough experience with the content, it is possible to judge someone's theoretical maximum just by giving him/her a brief inspection. On the more difficult fights, the margins of error become smaller, thus requiring a higher average out of everyone. When the people that want to clear it as fast as possible perceive someone as "undergeared," they get angry because the theoretical maximum of the group was bumped down several arbitrary notches; now it involves more wiping or the possibility of not even clearing it at all. This has nothing to do with personal skill, nor am I defending the actions of people that curse and ostrasice others that don't have top tier gear the day before it was released. I am merely trying help people understand one possible mindset.

This is different to me than judging the person. I don't have a personal stake or vendetta against the person behind the character; it is only the character I care about. The attitude of the person can affect that, of course, but at a base level I can only work with the tangible things.

I do not have anywhere close to enough experience to judge other people's performance now; I only know how much I cure for, how fast I can pump them out, the cooldowns I have at my disposal, etc. I am actively trying to avoid the same mindset that I developed in Final Fantasy XI. The game is new and I am still learning, as are many others. A lot of people probably don't even have a level 50 battle class yet. I don't begrudge them their journey, presume to tell them what they should take seriously in life, or tell them how they should spend their time.

And now what anyone that looked at my post has been waiting for:

tl;dr = People want to do different things with their time. One possible explanation for "elitism," as it is coined in this specific context, is because games that revolve around math and theoretical maximums (that depend solely on gear) can anger those whose objectives conflict with people they perceive as "undergeared," - regardless of the actual difficulty of the content.

I cleared AK in a FC run, I had just a couple of Darklight accessories and a weapon, our tank only had a Darklight weapon (AF, mid level accessories), our SMN had a few darklight pieces, and our BRD had Ifrit's Bow with a few greens. It is possible. It was fun. It took a lot of time. Unfortunately, some people feel their definition of fun and their worldview is the only one that matters.

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

The content in this game requires:
A. You are paying attention
B. You are always doing something (DPS, Heals, Tanking) All 3 roles don't get time to just stand around
C. You have gear to do your job correctly. If a boss hits for 3-4k, and you have 4.5k HP, you should NOT be doing the content. If a monster hits for 2k damage, and you can only heal for 600/cure, you should not be doing the content. If a boss requires you need to kill it in 3 minutes, and you can only make it to 3:30 and die, you should not be doing the content.

Stop whining please. This is an RPG. In Every RPG, you level something up to be strong enough to tackle the next enemy. Even Platformers dating back to N64's "Super Mario 64" required you acquired certain hats to access content.

Video games are not interactive movies. Stop acting like you are entitled to not actually do anything to play it. It's growing extremely tiresome.

We are not elitists, we are gamers.

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Let me add you do no speak for "gamers" you speak for yourself. There is a reason I liked FF over mario bros or Zelda and it seems some of you would rather be playing one of those games.

There is nothing wrong with that, they were good games and I played both but I preferred Final Fantasy for a reason I find it a little disturbing that people are calling others whiners etc etc because they expect FF like gameplay over Zelda like gameplay, it is mind boggling.

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Originally Posted by JyoonB

Everyone that 'defended' the OP are all from his server, that's pretty funny.

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It might be because what he is saying is true, I've come across him a few times and he does actually help people out on learning new content.
Some people however are always going to be "It's my $12.95 and I'll play how I want". I honestly don't care if people want to run around with sub par equips especially when the game practically hands you serviceable gear to get through almost all the content, just don't expect others to carry you through the harder battles.

I'm Elitist. I went to a top 500 Junior College and started studying liberal arts before dropping out and getting an elitist job at Mcdonalds where I continue to be Elitist because I'm fucking awesome at asking you if you want fries with that or if you want to "super size" it. Goddamnit I have every right to be elitist now, I've earned it.

Pretty sure this is only going to crate sharp divides in the community, and public shaming. We are already seeing ridiculous requirements for even joining groups. Why wouldn't folks take the next step and attempt to publicly ostracize people they see as "bads" from clearing content altogether? Why would anyone look forward to that sort of discrimination?

The whole premise of this "don't call me an elitist" thread just sounds like code for: "I want license to yell, scream, troll, or otherwise single out and humiliate players less skilled than me."

If someone called you an "elitist," it wasn't for having reasonable expectations regarding knowledge of dungeon mechanics, or for offering advice, or for making polite requests for a change in tactics. As with all subjects, there is a right way and a wrong way to make a point. Do it the right way, and you can turn an uphill struggle into a success, teach an inexperienced player a few tricks, and build a better community. Do it the wrong way, and you wipe until the party dissolves, you impart zero wisdom, and spread contempt and hostility. I'm not going to tell you that all hostility tossed your way was well-deserved -- but all things being equal, you reap what you sow.

With regards to the original post specifically, who the heck are you talking to!? You point fingers and spout orders to no one in particular. It's like hearing loud screaming and arguing coming from down the hallway, but when I peek around the corner to see what is going on, it's just you standing there in an empty room, yelling stuff like "Stop whining please!!!" and "Stop acting like you're entitled!!!"

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Originally Posted by Methuselah

I agree with the OP and it looks like he's one of the few people on these forums who can write a sentence without dramatic grammar errors.

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Maybe next time he can learn to spell "elitist."

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Originally Posted by Kantide

People keep mistaking lack of experience for being bad and then wonder why there aren't any experienced players 2 weeks after launch and they don't want to help people get experienced.

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Aspects of the community like this actually make me wonder if the "Wait until the Free Month is over" crowd may be on to something. There's probably some segment of the population that is speed-clearing everything, trying to get to the top, trolling other players incessantly, and poisoning the online environment, simply because they don't give a damn what happens once subscriptions start. They have to rush and step over everybody else, because soon they won't be here at all.

As stated previously, much of the problem stems from the attitude. You want people to do content with, but the "elitists" don't want to take the time to groom newer players or players trying to get into content for the first time.

I experienced this in every MMO I have ever played and over time I made it my mission to be that person that helps to groom so called "bads" into effective raiders. It can be done if you approach it properly.

A brilliant example is a guild I used to be part of in the game which will not be named had one elite raid group. No one else in the guild got to enjoy the content because they didn't want to open up one or two spots to help get others ready so I decided to form a group of non-geared newer to raiding players to make our own group. I even shouted in General chat to add people since we were short. It eventually became a weekly group with no heavy obligation as if 1 or 2 couldn't make it we could grab someone else who was new and start them on the path to raiding.

In the end we became wildly successful and downing most if not all of the endgame content available and eventually passing the "elite" raid in progression. How is this possible they thought... they're a group of "bads"?

Well it just comes down to good teaching and the willingness to learn along with a passion for fun and no name calling, yelling about mistakes etc.

TL;DR: People keep mistaking lack of experience for being bad and then wonder why there aren't any experienced players 2 weeks after launch and they don't want to help people get experienced.

I agree with the OP and it looks like he's one of the few people on these forums who can write a sentence without dramatic grammar errors.

Pfffffffff so true, I'm lvl 36 at the moment and in 9/10 dungeons light parties I get either Paladins can't keep the aggro, or Healers can't heal. But normally is just the Tanks that really can't keep aggro, some of them can but die 2-3 shots from bosses, can't avoid void zones, etc etc etc and I'm so in rage, 5th attempt to complete Brayfloxs (?) longstep or however is called, with my partner ( both DDs ) and we've started to level up Pala-Whm to see if this way we can run dungeons better, DEPRESSING

Now I let it out, I feel better =)

I hope subbing day weens people like you out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Kantide

TL;DR: People keep mistaking lack of experience for being bad and then wonder why there aren't any experienced players 2 weeks after launch and they don't want to help people get experienced.

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I can't like your post enough! *hugs*

It's very easy to be a "bad" player when the "experts" won't run dungeons with you to get gear, and won't party with you to get real practical experience on bosses. This is why I'm so glad to have the DF in this game, because it allows me to (mostly) bypass those people and simply play with others who also want to clear the content - whether they're under geared, over geared, or anything in between!

The fact that you made a thread to call out people you believe to be bad instead of making one to help players know the estimated gear requirement is what makes you an elitets

The game is still new. When I was learning Ifrit HM my latency was not the best at the time. I ran into quite a few players that were less than courteous. The two I reported before I left the group and finally found a group on my own server were saying things such as "You $@#%ing suck @#%^" , "yo kid go back to lvl 1 cuz u srsly suck", and other elitist crap. I can only hope that this behavior is not going to be the standard for this game like it is in many others. Hand out 10 day account bans for verbal harassment and let them ponder upon their own immaturity.

A lot of people are missing the OPs point about elitists.

He's saying that you aren't an elitist and shouldn't be considered one for expecting the bare minimum from players.

If your level 35 you shouldn't be allowed to run a level 40 dungeon, this does not make you an elitist. Expecting players to be level 45 before you will run with them does make you an elitist.

For some reason players seem to think that just because they are 50 they should be able to run anything, this is not the case, even though levels stop at 50 the progression doesn't. You are not an elitist if you expect players to have the proper gear to complete the content.

Expecting players to be able to dodge attacks, does not make you an elitist. Expecting players to dodge 100% of everything thrown at them does make you an elitist.

Telling first time players what to do at a boss fight does not make you an elitist. Yelling at them for not listening after the fourth failure makes you human, not an elitist.

I think there is one major flaw with your logic original poster. That is how you start off by saying "The content in this game"...umm what you mean to say is the endgame content right? Because the vast majority of the "content" of this game does not require half the things you mentioned, i could probably kill things 5 levels above me naked if i felt like it. I mean I get what you are saying, but the truth is that due to the majority of the content, players are not properly prepared or trained on their class by the time they get to the end game content where all of a sudden you have to know what you are doing. That is a flaw with the base mechanics which should have been helping players grow to be more intelligent and resourceful gamers by the time they are level 50 and not the players themselves.

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Originally Posted by Frothylager

A lot of people are missing the OPs point about elitists.

He's saying that you aren't an elitist and shouldn't be considered one for expecting the bare minimum from players.

If your level 35 you shouldn't be allowed to run a level 40 dungeon, this does not make you an elitist. Expecting players to be level 45 before you will run with them does make you an elitist.

For some reason players seem to think that just because they are 50 they should be able to run anything, this is not the case, even though levels stop at 50 the progression doesn't. You are not an elitist if you expect players to have the proper gear to complete the content.

Expecting players to be able to dodge attacks, does not make you an elitist. Expecting players to dodge 100% of everything thrown at them does make you an elitist.

Telling first time players what to do at a boss fight does not make you an elitist. Yelling at them for not listening after the fourth failure makes you human, not an elitist.

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I made a post a few days ago, You think you are Hardcore/Elite. I understand the frustration in your last comment but I disagree with your last sentence. Although its the "human" reaction, its the "asshat" thing to do.

castrum rush yesterday a bard with lvl 9 ring ,and other low lvl gear ....didnt even have the AF chest ...and was rushing castrum (wasnt his 1 time , was farming Tomes)

and u arent force to dodge 100% but 90% at least , if u dont dodge things in hard modes that usually means u are death.

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Originally Posted by Yoko_Kurama

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I'm talking about endgame.

You fail to see a point, and spend most of your time refuting fact to indulge yourself.

Titan+Coil is nothing to scoff at, and requires a certain degree of skill and paying attention.

You obviously have not made it to these fights, and have nothing to say that has any merit in this discussion.