"Fix" Speed Runs? How about fixing the real issue?

I killed a Level 1 Ladybug on my level 50, it didn't give me gear or Gil.

WTF is up with that.

They just need to add merits or a similar system allowing exp at 50 to still be viable and people will be happy to clear trash.

To all the crybabies read the patch notes. not only the coffers offer better money rewards, they reduced the overall cost of repairs, lvl 50 items cost was reduced from 500 gil to 200 gil. please stop crying for clearly abusing an exploit at the cost of the tank. Good grief , we most definantly need an mmo for these people where they press one key and is awarded a legendary weapon.

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Originally Posted by StreamMonster

They didn't nerf repair bills at all. It now costs even more to run AK because you beat the crap out of your gear clearing all the trash.

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Originally Posted by Kyp

Eh, the bronze pieces are fine, ive been making more in allagan pieces than the repair costs easily, Im up almost 4900 today with a little over 2k for repair costs gone

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My post was literally right before yours, open all the chests, if you get 7 bronze pieces you just paid for your run, if you get more then you profit

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Originally Posted by Marenwynn

The hardcore players are the ones that do it for the challenge without complaint. All I hear is a bunch of casuals whining about trash monsters not being profitable.

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Well, that's not entirely true. I'd say it's more along the lines of players who play this game for it being FFXIV that do it without complaint. No different than those who play any other game for it being that game, treating each as a unique experience, rather than applying the same generic/stereotypical mouth-breather goals to anything they play. The same sort of people that still think repair costs post-patch is a detriment that they cannot upkeep.

Can't wait for all the whiny cry babies to quit this game and go back to playing WoW where everything is handed to them. we'll be left with the more mature community! I'll guess after their 30 days free are up, they will no longer be here. That will be the day for festivities! :D

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Originally Posted by Kyp

My post was literally right before yours, open all the chests, if you get 7 bronze pieces you just paid for your run, if you get more then you profit

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I like how your whole statement relies on "if".

Make progress in a dungeon require players to kill the trash mobs first.

Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Livi

Because you have to kill the trash to get to the bosses just like everysingle one of other instances.

I suggest you should now start a thread complaining about the others dungeons don't have speed run.

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Every dungeon has a speedrun, same mechanism. Its just people dont bother with it, just AK, WP because of points.

What SE also needs to address is the amount of tomes dropped by hard primals. Really, 10 philosophy tomes and 4 mythology tomes from beating ifrit? At least double it or something.

As it stands, if I'm capped on myth for the week I'd rather run CM now. It's babymode easy and offers a wider variety of mobs to skip and/or otherwise gloss over (cannons). Also, now that i've beated the three hardmode primals and gotten my relic weapon there is next to no reason for me to ever want to do them again.

Why given Titan a primal weapon if every person who goes to do him is there to get their relic?! Give him a helmet or something ffs.

AK is too expensive to run now. It takes three times longer and beats up my gear to the point where I don't even want to enter the stupid place. Risk and Reward, SE, Risk and REWARD. This is stupid

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Originally Posted by AreeSoothsayer

Many games out there have special loot that you can ONLY GET from certain 'trash' mobs. They usually have stats that are respectable and hold their own against chest/boss loot from instances. They just had insanely low drop rates to make them rare. All we're asking is to give the dungeon trash a 0.5% chance of dropping a chest with pink loot.

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Do you know how insanely high 0.5% drop rate is?

Dont the mobs drop crafting materials? pretty sure they do, or thats what they should do. They also count in hunting log for xp->seals

I really hate that it gives only 40 mitho...it could be at least 50 so it fits the 300 on 6 runs...

Also more mobs...way more fucking time...this is just a cheesy fix.

I think the folks who are applauding the halting of AK Speed Runs are just as clueless as the developers who always believe that gamers will play the game as they believed it was intended to play.

Game Design 101: players will always find ways to break, circumvent, or speed up past artificial processes that slow progression.

Last but not least, there's a correlation between the players vehemently cheering for the clearing of all trash in AK and other dungeons and the gear that they're wearing (checking it through the Lodestone): still wearing grey items; L28 rings and amulets; and a general lack of focus on stat itemization. For those people, the importance of clearing trash is reflected through their incompetence to care about what's important character-wise.

Their lack of experience and knowledge with the efficiency and results provided from speed runs only exacerbates and reveals their ignorance.

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Originally Posted by roflcaust

I think the folks who are applauding the halting of AK Speed Runs are just as clueless as the developers who always believe that gamers will play the game as they believed it was intended to play.

Game Design 101: players will always find ways to break, circumvent, or speed up past artificial processes that slow progression.

Last but not least, there's a correlation between the players vehemently cheering for the clearing of all trash in AK and other dungeons and the gear that they're wearing (checking it through the Lodestone): still wearing grey items; L28 rings and amulets; and a general lack of focus on stat itemization. For those people, the importance of clearing trash is reflected through their incompetence to care about what's important character-wise.

Their lack of experience and knowledge with the efficiency and results provided from speed runs only exacerbates and reveals their ignorance.

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In other words, if you're not a "me" then why would I bother with "you".

I remember those are the same type of people that refused to wait for other people's story cut scenes, skip necessary progression for other players because there's no advancement for them, and generally "my way or the high way" type of players.

Welcome to cross server dungeon finder! Where only trash refuses to notice their own kind!

There is optimization at any level of the game. It takes time, teamwork and self enlightenment. For everything else it's call auto grouping.

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Originally Posted by roflcaust

Game Design 101: players will always find ways to break, circumvent, or speed up past artificial processes that slow progression.

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Also MMO Design/Maintenance 101: Fix issues found by players to prevent exploits.

No one can really claim that the speedrunning was not exploiting. I think it was just a design fault they overlooked. Games are meant to be played in some way, and there has to be some rules how things work out, like clear your way to the boss rooms. If an issue is found where the game's "rules" can be broken it should and will be fixed.

I may not have full set from the speedrun exploits, and i still dont consider myself a bad player. Even if its a MMO its still a game, and I enjoy actually playing my games instead of exploiting my way through.

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs... I mean the whole reason we called them trash mobs... was due to trashy loot. Are you guys serious? I mean I get that you were TOTALLY exploiting the game and they fixed it. They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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Repair costs are 3 times more higher then they were before due to more wear

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Originally Posted by misterrpg

More WoW whiny babies that cry when the game doesn't hand them everything they want.

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Sorry I didnt play WoW i was busy playing FFXI, and in FFXI exp grinding groups where profitable especially against beastmen

omg these people. The game is for fun. Challenges are fun. Being challenged is fun. If you want a boss, go do hardmode (and soon, elite) primal, and you won't have to fight trash mobs. Sorry you have to navigate and fight your way through beautifully designed and difficult mazes - and sorry for you that you don't enjoy being challenged. Is this the type of player games like WoW produced? THE REWARD FOR BEATING TRASH MOBS IS THE FACT THAT YOU NEED TO BEAT THEM TO CLEAR THE DUNGEON. THEY WILL KILL YOU IF YOU DON'T FIGHT THEM, and they will kill you if you don't fight them properly. They're part of the boss fight, look at it that way. My god. If these people played pre-aht urgan ff11 for 10 minutes they would pee their pants. Imagine: nearly every monster in the game can kill you if you're solo at nearly every level of the game past 10 - and there's no pretty quests to give you gobs of xp for simply walking somewhere - and you require a full party of 5 to level effectively.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

They just need to add merits or a similar system allowing exp at 50 to still be viable and people will be happy to clear trash.

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It does spiritbind your gear. There's that.

no one said the real issue. of course they are just trash mobs and you need to kill them to get to boss. the problem is that it takes FOREVER to kill the mobs. if it takes so long then we should at least get reward, and not 1 gil like a slap in the face. what's the point in waiting now 30-40 minutes to get into the duty finder and pray you have a decent party to spend 40+ minutes more in the dungeon? that's at least 80 minutes to do one run IF everything goes well and everyone knows what they're doing

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs...

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Dynamis dropped coinage.

I can't believe I am actually citing something Dynamis did correct.

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Originally Posted by Darkrotor

If you want to kill the bosses, you gotta kill the stuff before him. That is the incentive to kill the trash, to get to the boss. Your not being rewarded for killing the trash, your killing the trash so you can get to the boss to get your reward.

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I don't think anyone has explained it... this... good. He just said it all and the best conclusion to this BS of people crying over having to spend time doing stuff in a game. Yes I think they could of added other outlets to get tomes than just one dungeon. But still did you guys even try to get DL gear in 1.0. I can only say countless hours where wasted trying to get that stuff to drop back then.

As one stated on another thread. BOOM!

/thread

Make use of the gear set system and get some spirit bonding done!

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

Dynamis dropped coinage.

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It not only dropped coins but gear as well. But that was intended, the whole purpose to go in was to get coins and the gear not to reach the end boss and be finished. Hence why people went in specifically just for getting currency and not caring about trying to finish the whole zone.

Dynamis was all about kill until the time runs out and hope we get a lot of gear and currency to drop.

I hate speed runs, but still would like for trash mobs to have purpose.

Maybe if SE added a Merit System/Grid license board people would want to kill them.

and even a small amount of seals or more gil.

Edit:

Maybe SE should divide the full dungeon tombstone get to every mob in the dungeon.

You get 1 gil from some trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Trash mobs are a waste of time that yield no items or gil.

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This is NOT the real issue.

Doesn't matter what trash mobs dropped, if there was a way to exploit and run to the boss then all you speed-runners would do it anyways, REGARDLESS of what trash mobs dropped. And don't try to claim otherwise.

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Originally Posted by VahnValbosce

This is NOT the real issue.

Doesn't matter what trash mobs dropped, if there was a way to exploit and run to the boss then all you speed-runners would do it anyways, REGARDLESS of what trash mobs dropped. And don't try to claim otherwise.

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You think of mobs dropped Allagan pieces people would skip them?

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs... I mean the whole reason we called them trash mobs... was due to trashy loot. Are you guys serious? I mean I get that you were TOTALLY exploiting the game and they fixed it. They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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Come on now, it'd be nice to at least get crafting mats.. Thing is they never drop anything. Hell just a rare chance at dropping Allagan coins would be more than enough. Even WoW had it where trash mobs would drop crappy items, which while useless in most cases could be sold or used in the odd craft or two. No ones asking for magical handouts of super powers or fortunes, just something other than nothing.

I mean I know no one likes an FFXI comparison, but as flawed as the game was.. every mob in that game would drop something, no matter the area or circumstance. Beastmen and Humanoids also dropped gil there as well, not MUCH gil, usually trivial amounts, but if people are expected to spam these dungeons it'd be nice to get something trivial that adds up a little over time as opposed to nothing at all except the reward for clearing the entire dungeon. (Which is the whole point in why people skip past mobs, the only thing they're getting out of the place is what the very last boss rewards you.)

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Originally Posted by VahnValbosce

This is NOT the real issue.

Doesn't matter what trash mobs dropped, if there was a way to exploit and run to the boss then all you speed-runners would do it anyways, REGARDLESS of what trash mobs dropped. And don't try to claim otherwise.

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Would there be someone who always exploited the dungeon? Yeah. Would it be the vast majority as it is now? Nope.
There will always be people impatient, no stopping this completely. No denial there either. But a lot more people would be inclined to do it normally if they got a little bit of gil or usefulness out of it other than the end boss.

What a load of bullshit: people want to talk about senses of entitlement in a video game that consumers are paying for purely entertainment value and don't see the irony in such generalized statements? What goddamn rock do these simpletons live under?

If any them had half the mind to step into end game they would realize just how much effort really is put into the dungeons, the mechanics of the bosses, and gear progression. Bosses are not simple walks in the park, and when players don't have a clue what to do leads to massive wipes. An under geared Tank, Dps, or Healer can cost their team dearly, and run out the timers due to not meeting the minimum requirements to tackle a dungeon. To top the issue of little to no reward, crafters wouldn't be able to make the items needed for relics if no one went into a dungeon.

The amount of argument from ignorance, assumption, and false authority is outstanding. Pull your heads clearly from your ass wannabe adventures because Trials, Dungeons, and Raids are meant to be experienced in an enjoyable fashion, and for some individuals clearing trash for the sake of a mindless difficulty of burning through health bars is bad design.

I swear the ones who are entitled are the naysayers expecting anyone and everyone to prescribe to their ideals of game-play. This is not just your Final Fantasy game, and people are allowed their opinions on matters concerning aspects of play. Argument ad hominem makes you like like puerile adults who can't come up with legitimate thoughts as to why trash should remain reward-less as opposed to awarding players for their efforts.

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Originally Posted by Brolleun-Hunter

What a load of bullshit: people want to talk about senses of entitlement in a video game that consumers are paying for purely entertainment value. What goddamn rock do these simpletons live under?

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To be fair, the people upset about this most are just people who want to play.. correctly. It's actually not that unusual for a lot of people to be upset that they can't do so because a lot of other people want to things in a more productive (and faster) way. We really do nothing more than spin the wheel arguing both ways at one another though.. There is no way for one type of player to easily convince the other. The solution lies in SE's hands, they need to do something about this situation rather than let the community split apart over something as silly as this.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

You think of mobs dropped Allagan pieces people would skip them?

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There is NO deterrent for an exploit, so long as the boss drops better loot than the trash, then people will exploit and skip if possible.
Clearly there is a money issue with endgame players that just grind dungeons all day. As soon as said players make enough money from the Allagan pieces, that the Allagan money itself becomes "useless" then the exploiting would begin again. The only problem I see is that trash mobs should just be more difficult and drop crafting materials which can then be sold on the market. This game also contains Crafting/Gathering which are ways to make money if money is your focus.

Other than that, there's no reason for exploits to be in place, even if trash mobs dropped anything at all. I'm glad to hear the fix was implemented.

They should add some gil drops to the trash mobs and maybe some nice crafting mats, just something to add some interest to clearing them and maybe cover the repairs from killing them. Most dungeons in just about every MMO have 'trash mobs'. They are called this because that's what they are. They are there to be cleared out, nothing more. Just being able to skip them all is not how the dungeon was designed to be done.

Even so, arguing that it's an MMO standard and should just stay the way it is, seems pointless. It would be pretty awesome to play an MMO where trash mobs drop some money and maybe occasionally interesting loot, like how in some WoW raids there are trash dropped pieces of epic gear that can just randomly drop off of any trash mob in the dungeon. This can provide better incentive for clearing out all the trash and make people more enthusiastic about doing so. It's never a bad idea to improve an old system to make it more fun. =)

Actually, I think they should spread the final sum of tomes across all the available 'trash mobs' throughout a dungeon. If you want the complete sum, then you have to do the work for it. If you decide to bypass a section of the map because its 'out of the way', then you're willingly giving up the potential sum of tomes that you could have received for not being lazy.

Greetings,

The development team is aware that the benefits for defeating regular monsters in high level dungeons are not proportionate to the effort. They are also aware that dungeon runs can also be filled with players with conflicting goals (like enjoying the story versus doing a farming/speed run) that leads to it being difficult to enjoy the content. They feel that improvements in these areas are needed and are currently working on countermeasures for this.

We will be sure to fill you in on the details in the near future.

How near is the future exactly? Is it like soon(tm) or like less than a week or so from now? because some of these things need to be addressed NOW(gold spammers, certain endgame activities, qol issues that most mmos have off the bat). Especially the gold spam it is completely unacceptable to let so much of it go on for so long. You have the shout channel there for a reason and that is to allow people to ask for help or form groups, as it has been the last few weeks it is 24/7 gold spam where no one can get a word in without the spam of multiple bots in the same second.

Unless that report spam feature in 2.1 will ban these bots after so many reports we should not have to wait till a fix is implemented for this. I have seen bots that have been up a week or more and surely have hundreds of reports, why has nothing been done about these?

The gold spam in this game is insane. Lower level characters need to be blocked from sending tells to higher level characters along with some other measures to seriously bite the issue in the backside.

All random loot chests have now been removed from dungeons
These items now have X% chance to drop from trash mobs.

Fixed, it's now like every other game.

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I really don't feel "trash" gives anything less than in other games the only difference is the "shiny things" don't come from the monsters themselves they come from the CHESTS. That's not something which exists the same way in other games.

I wonder if they are aware of the 4man groups using teleport hacks to teleport to chest to chest then boss to boss. Skipping trash in its entirety. No idea if there exploiting bosses or killing them normally though. I doubt it.

Here's a nice forum I found on Google advertising LFG to do teleport dungeons:

Removed Link - don't want to be suspended.....

Excerpt : LFG on Faerie - Looking for people on Faerie to start a speed run group for AK or others things using teleport. Send me a pm. I'm a BLM, we'll need a full group and everyone to have teleport so we can just teleport to each boss.

Same forums has multiple teleport hacks, Exp, gathering, Fishing bots.

I don't think you should be linking that kind of stuff. On the other hand, maybe it would help the devs fix some of these exploits quicker.