Dark Devices - Exploitation

Square will probably only do something once they realize they are losing alot customers since they seem to only care about the money they make and for now people only want to FATE/endgame spam.

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Originally Posted by Vizarie

i seem to be ruining it alot for people it seems, dunno why they get so mad, but it is exploitation of the fate it shouldnt be the way it is

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right with you on that, everytime i see it pop up i kill the lambs asap ;D, sometimes the rage is quite amusing

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Originally Posted by MitArgento

right with you on that, everytime i see it pop up i kill the lambs asap ;D, sometimes the rage is quite amusing

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ive been reported by 10 off people after ruining 3 so far blacklisted by over 100 people, im doing our cause proud

I basically just do FATEs for the seals and occasionally XP so I'm a FATE noob. I did Dark Devices Sunday and noticed the first phase took ridiculously long. I wasn't in a FATE party and made very poor progress because I only got kills when I targeted enemies first using flash. So I had no intentions or benefits of using the exploit to farm mobs. With that said, does this exploit only happen when the boss spawns at the final FATE stage or can the earlier stages be prolonged by focusing on the mobs?

As far as i know, people only generally use the first phase for farming.

Thats because the first phase is the only one that can be farmed.

I don't see the big deal. Isn't that FATE exactly what the "FATE nerfers" want people to do? One of the options people push is to have monsters give more exp and having chain farming be a thing. Well, look, here is chain farming at its finest.

So...whats wrong with it?

Personally, I don't want fates nerfed. I want them to be the "dynamic content" they claim to be. There's nothing dynamic about standing in a single spot and pressing your aoe button repeatedly and reaping the rewards or following around a hoard of players to a fate that ends in under a minute - there's no danger - there's no thrill. Its repetitive, boring, rehashed MMO content - but it has the potential to be better. And chain farming is an idea some could get behind, but not at the expense and abuse of other content like FATES. The thrill that many people find during chain farming is the timer and the finding of the monster in time to keep the chain going. Having the monsters handed to you on a silver platter and having them have below normal monster statistics while still reaping the full benefit is what is wrong with it.

Here is an interesting article that popped up in the forums recently for those who haven't seen it: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/96418-This...

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

As far as i know, people only generally use the first phase for farming.

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Thanks I wasn't sure. After reading more closely through this thread, I see you have to kill lambs for the main objective. I'm also on PS3 and might have not been able to see the lambs because everything is crowded at this FATE and I only see about 30 players/NPCs at a time.

As for the topic.
I feel this is similar to the AK speed runs because people are in disagreement on how they want to complete the task. If AK speed runs were really an exploit, they would have been designed differently before launch. The real problem was AK speed runners were being rude and obnoxious to first-timers that want to run the entire dungeon and not be rushed. There was even a thread supporting the implementation of an anti-speed run mechanism that had arguments for both sides. SE implemented that mechanism and there are less arguments between speed runners and first-timers now in AK.

With DD, SE hasn't publicly told us that this is an exploit and if they thought it was one then it wouldn't have been designed this way from launch all the way up to today. The problem is there are people that want to do the FATE as fast as possible and there are others that want to grind the first phase. People are being blacklisted and reported on both sides of this. People are being rude and obnoxious to people in-game like what happened in AK.

TL;DR The serious problem here is people are harassing each other on both sides of this DD "exploit". If they fixed AK because of harassment issues, they should fix DD too.

The thing with exploitation is, its impossible to completely stop, you can't predict every possible loophole players will find ahead of time nor can you see every unintentional design flaw. Its a part of gaming of which all players are accustomed to - whether it be knowing a particular spot a boss can't AOE in, or running tight circles around objects in pvp. Many exploitations are embraced and often turned into interesting features in the future.

As far as speed runs go, none of those dungeons were tested in the beta - they were bound to have a flaw or two, as far as I've seen monsters don't generally heel in many other dungeons.

If this is an exploit then so was being a NIN tank in XI. SE never intended it; it was supposed to DD as well as debuff, but the players saw different potential and ran with it. SE are good about jumping on things they see as exploits, and they haven't done anything about this. It seems to be an intended option for players to collaborate on.

One can (and several have) make the argument that it's cheap, but you know what? FATE is cheap even without the ability to cash in big on a particular one. You can't complain that people are losing out on a learning or fun experience by not-making grinding take as long as humanly possible. FATEs often amount to mindless aoe spamming, blind voking, and the healing of people who don't need it. It's not like people aren't learning their jobs because they aren't doing FATEs for long enough.

The problem with this is that a lot of people playing the game are jerks. When someone is killing the xp, it would be nice if the group could let them know how things work without trying to belittle them. That's not the case though, and instead of being receptive, they're trying to out-belligerent the next guy, and now we have a clan of people who sacrifice their own personal time (that should be used improving their own characters, as they ironically accuse others of not-playing properly) in hopes of killing the xp of others.

Make no mistake though, while both sides are being aholes to each other at this point, the people who are spending time trying to ruin this for other people really need to get over it.

Actually your wrong about the ninja in XI, it was intended to be a jack of all trades - tank / dps / support. That's why it had the modes for each, tho your right about how we as players did pigeon hole it's potential into being just a tank.

However, not everyone seeks to complete the objective for the sake of being a jerk some people just want the rewards such as seals or just the feeling of completion that goes along with it. Fates in general are a system that needs serious work this one is no exception.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

Actually your wrong about the ninja in XI, it was intended to be a jack of all trades - tank / dps / support. That's why it had the modes for each, tho your right about how we as players did pigeon hole it's potential into being just a tank.

However, not everyone seeks to complete the objective for the sake of being a jerk some people just want the rewards such as seals or just the feeling of completion that goes along with it. Fates in general are a system that needs serious work this one is no exception.

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Lolol, this sounds selfish to me, their are countless fates which provide seals.

Heck is it small wonder people try to get as much exp as they can? Either way the most efficient way to level is grinding fates which is utterly mindless and boring, especially after your first class when the alternatives are pathetic.

And ye its not an "exploit" as such, if it was a big deal square enix would have put a stop to it long ago. Whining over a little thing like a small increase in leveling speed in that zone is rediculous.
Does it give people an unfair advantage? no is it an exploit then? no.

People seem to not understand what exploitation means, it falls in line with an aspect of strategy to utilize a weakness or flaw in order to improve your effectiveness in an aspect or goal. Which is exactly what is being done with dark devices. It is not cheating, however it is the abuse of a function or aspect of the fate. And i think they have bigger things to worry about then a single fate's abuse. For one a good majority of the content has already been completed let alone the server and gold seller issues. So unless it falls under the catagory of game breaking exploitation like speed runs - where the unintentional heeling of monsters allowed players to skip content, i don't think it will be on their top to do list for some time.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

Actually your wrong about the ninja in XI...

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Almost every single ability they had was to create and exploit enemy weakness. You're welcome to dig up old threads if you don't believe me, you will find lots of talk about the NIN being used in a way that the developers didn't intend. I even remember the words "elemental fighter" being used to describe them in the official guide. Here, I even have a couple of links for you; the wiki, which explicitly says that it wasn't intended as a tanking job, and a history of FFXI thread that someone made, which contains all the updates, several of which make direct mention of NIN tank being an unexpected phenomenon.

Anyway, the point wasn't to talk about NIN, but to point out that when players do something unexpected, SE act or don't act accordingly. No matter what they intended with DD (or any number of other FATEs that can be used similarly) they don't seem to be concerned about the way it's being used, and they are addressing real exploits already.

My remark about people being jerks by completing it ASAP is referring to people who clearly stated in this very thread that they do that. Or people who openly state it in-game as they do it. I didn't say everyone, I referred to "the people who are spending time..." Those people are very real. Seals drop on most FATEs I've seen, and there are plenty of other ways of obtaining it; no other way to earn that kind of xp. If someone is knowingly doing it on the single FATE where people can get huge xp, and is claiming to do so to expedite their "feeling of completion", that someone is being disingenuous.

No, they are addressing issues based on priority of severity. And Ninja had a specific stance that improved enmity and lowered damage output not to mention merits that improved enmity of ninjitsu (also inversely had ones that reduced it), they wouldn't have these tools available if they were unintended to have the potential to tank. And it was never intended to be a primary tanking job, It was intended to be a jack of all trades most of the zilart jobs were designed around this concept.

So you would force others to play in a method to the liking of the masses? Just do it because everyone else does? Fall in line with us or pay? No. Everyone has the right to play the way they want, whether they want to exploit a fate for exp or complete a fate for rewards, we all play the game to have fun and each persons view of fun is different. And SE has a history of failing to address issues even severe ones, its remarkable they even addressed the AK one as fast as they did.

The main argument I see is that leveling through other means does not make you know your class better; this is something I want to argue. If they made dungeoning the primary way to get exp, people would learn their jobs better at lower levels. Sure, there are people that get carried through storyline dungeons, but if you had to use PUGs to primarily level? That'd be a different story. It'd force the DPS players who insist on pulling, healers that over heal, and tanks who try to pull with Flash, quickly learn the correct way to play (or suffer many, many wipes).

While doing the level 47 Molboro quest is a good 130k exp per run (and really fast/easy for even average players), it takes around 45 minutes and bad parties will wipe, hopefully making you a better player by realizing what you're doing wrong. Doing this fate 'exploit/whateveryouwannacallit' gets you 130k exp in 10-15 minutes by pressing one button over and over in the same spot.

I'm not really opposed to people doing it for exp. I mean, whatever. If SE wants to nerf it I encourage it. If not, I encourage that too. While I agree "bad players are just bad players" to be true, some players could really benefit to having to do a moderately difficult dungeon to level. Let's face it: pick up groups are always going to be hit or miss. But if people rush to 50, I'm under the opinion that it'll be more "miss" than "hit." I even previously reported this, but mainly due to leveling with 50's who didn't know how to target or mark enemies without explicit instructions. :|

TLDR: I don't care how people wanna play the game, I just hate how it effects later game PUGs. If it's your 2nd, 3rd+ class, have fun. You're likely a good player already. I just want better players in the community.

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Originally Posted by Vizarie

ive been reported by 10 off people after ruining 3 so far blacklisted by over 100 people, im doing our cause proud

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Its quite amusing you think you are doing some justice when in fact you are no better then the people who troll or yell at others in runs but what ever makes you feel high and mighty

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

Rofl, community rep just told you QQers

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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Thanks for telling us the dev team doesn't care about crafting or anything else pre-cap. Just RUSH RUSH RUSH. I would've loved to hear this before release.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Thanks for telling us the dev team doesn't care about crafting or anything else pre-cap. Just RUSH RUSH RUSH. I would've loved to hear this before release.

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What does this have to do with crafting most players i seen usually do it after one or two classes get to 50

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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KO. This is what happens when people assume they know what the devs feel/think.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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loooooooooooooveyou

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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question though is ending it early griefing or some bannable offense? (to the players ending it early might as well ask and find out right?)

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

question though is ending it early griefing or some bannable offense? (to the players ending it early might as well ask and find out right?)

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Question is are you doing it to grief like one of the posters here? Tho I don't think it should be bannable if you are doing it to cause grief and get caught in the act i guess so.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonJenn

And guess what? The developers themselves have called it an exploit... so yeah it's an exploit recognized by the development team.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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Game. Set. Match.
We're done here folks. Nothing to see.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

question though is ending it early griefing or some bannable offense? (to the players ending it early might as well ask and find out right?)

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I would hope not. Finishing a FATE based on the instructions should NOT be bannable.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Thanks for telling us the dev team doesn't care about crafting or anything else pre-cap. Just RUSH RUSH RUSH. I would've loved to hear this before release.

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If you don't want to RUSH RUSH RUSH, you're free not to do it.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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Winner!

/10chdfgh

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Originally Posted by Camate

Hello,

Since there seems to be a lot of questions and concerns as to whether this is an exploit, I wanted to clarify that the way this FATE functions as well as others similar to it are working as intended and it is not an exploit.

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then you are saying us, that the monster here was placed for respawn twice as fast as normal monster, that people can get up to 200.000 exp by killing them when the part of this fate reward is about 10-15k exp. and all of this seems normal?
the fact to maintain a chain without stop is normal too?
the fact that this fate create rift into the community is normal too then?
without being offending, i think they need to rethink a bit this and more important to do some intern testing for see the insane exp possible to get from there.

ps: yeah is possible to get 200.000 exp from this and even more ^^.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

then you are saying us, that the monster here was placed for respawn twice as fast as normal monster, that people can get up to 200.000 exp by killing them when the part of this fate reward is about 10-15k exp. and all of this seems normal?
the fact to maintain a chain without stop is normal too?

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Isn't this basically like the XP chains for parties in 1.0(and I guess FFXI though I didn't play it)? I thought the point was to keep chaining mobs and killing them to maximize experience. DD and others like it always just seemed like a very fast version of a normal mob grinding party.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you don't want to RUSH RUSH RUSH, you're free not to do it.

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There's this little thing called reality. That everything in an MMO is linked to other parts of it.

When everyone can burn through levels on select FATE's. It's bad for the rest of the game. Especially the economy, crafters and gatherers.

FATE's don't exist in a bubble.

"you're free not to do it" doesn't fly in anything but a single player game.

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Originally Posted by Esmian

Isn't this basically like the XP chains for parties in 1.0(and I guess FFXI though I didn't play it)? I thought the point was to keep chaining mobs and killing them to maximize experience. DD and others like it always just seemed like a very fast version of a normal mob grinding party.

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Every word from SE about grinding parties in XIV during Alpha and Beta was "No". They told everyone to do dungeons if they wanted to group and the amount of players in FATE's would thin out. Which is why they never changed the scaling, the only reason FATE trains even work is because everything can just be overpowered with numbers.

Everyone that's trying to mock others for assuming is a joke because of that. This flies in the face of everything they've said previously.

xp chain party was forced to stop at a moment, because of the mana or the repop of the monster. here both are not a problem, take the blm, they are infinte mana since they use ice 2. and since the monster repop until the end of the fate is possible to continue the chain as long that the fate going on.
and that where the problem lie, the pop is way too fast. if the pop was normal it's will not be a trouble... here the monster repop way too fast. more important only a couple of class can get exp from this.
be a drg, mnk, pld, mrd and you will get no exp from this, mostly because them AoE cost way too much for be used in chain too long. (or deal enough for get credit)

i know some people that was getting 230.000 exp from this one is far too much when you think that the level 49-50 ask you for 500.000 exp it's a trouble a huge one!

ps: i will not go as far to say is an exploit, but it's a huge flaw in the mechanic of this fate (and is not the only one) when a fate can give you more of 1/3 of your level for 12-13 minute of play you have a trouble and ignore it is not good.

exploit? No
bad design? Yes
Not complete objective? No
Maximize your gain from DD Fate? Yes

The objective of the DD Fate is to kill the Lambs with in the time frame. You can kill them in 1 min or you can leave them until the last 30 sec.

no the objective is to secure the hostage, killing the lamb are a means not the goal.

Was never a contest, tho as i said before if this is the stance and direction they want to take fates there is really nothing i can argue against it. All i can honestly hope for is that future content is better designed. I'm glad i could finally get a developer to post here tho, at least it clears up many of the vague misconceptions from the live letter response.

AHAHAHAHAHA...Oh.. oh.. AHAHAHA.. "DEVS SAID THIS IS AN EXPLOIT!".. Mod logs on "NOT AN EXPLOIT!"... AHAHAHA

I graciously bow my head, I was wrong my misconceived notion from the live letter on their stance about it lead to me saying something that wasn't true. I'm not afraid to admit when I have been proven wrong.