Online Bullying - A Dev request for a response and discussion

This is way beyond "growing a thicker skin" - at work this would be a serious disciplinary matter, in the street the police would get involved - so why is the person on the receiving end the problem online?

all these lowbies talking trash.

in my experience, the people that blow up like in OP's picture are insecure about their own standing on the social ladder and have to try to compensate with what they view as dominant behavior. we of course can see it for what it is, a sad attempt for them to feel better about whatever low point they may be in in life.

berating someone for playing poorly generally doesn't make them play better. i know if someone (and they have) blew up on me like that i would in turn start trying to piss them off even more just to see what they would do. is that a good way to handle things? probably not but it adds to my enjoyment of the game, at least. i have found that being overly polite to people like that tends to send them off the handle, i would recommend trying that next time and then sending in a report for harassment / racism.

We will see them disappear when the trial period is over.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Adding people to blacklist should block their entire account from being matched with you in the Duty Finder in the future.

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I think that's a fine idea. I agree with just having to brush people off, but no kid should have to sit through someone telling him to slit his own throat because he's worthless. Somewhere out there that could be the last straw, and someone will go and do just that.

A right-click report feature that snaps the last 5 minutes of the chat log for review would be handy. Hit that, blacklist then move on.

Haven't seen so many internet tough guys all in one thread.

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Originally Posted by Dschlitz

We will see them disappear when the trial period is over.

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If only. Remember at the end of beta? "Well the forums will be nicer at release when you have to have paid for the game?" How's that turned out? Same threads, same arguments, same white knight/troll name-calling.

We just have to face it. Idiots and children have disposable income these days, too.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

Most of these people are probably just kids who get bullied IRL or just losers that don't have much going for them in real life so they take out frustrations online and try to get an ego-boost that way. Just ignore them or blacklist them. People who have a pretty good real life generally don't act this way online IMHO .

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Blacklisting doesn't seem to work if they are from another server, I got one guy with a potty mouth I tried to block and kept getting character not found which is I assume because he was from another server.

Also saying enforcing things on the internet will make things worse is wrong, people have shown over and over again we need consequences to our actions and words both in real life and online and we are slowly getting there but there is still much work to do. Take for example the jokers that video themselves doing 240kph on public roads and posting it to facebook or youtube only takes one complaint and the cops track them down.

Seriously, if you haven't figured out how to tell someone what to do without being a tremendous jerk you should probably get off this game and reevaluate your life right now. No offense intended, that is a serious comment. If some guy in your duty still keeps having trouble and you've had your fill, politely bow out. Jesus Christ, how hard is this? Yeah, the person being attacked should shrug it off as some manchild insulting them over the internet, but I hope the person in that screenshot is banned for good. That shouldn't be acceptable behavior and the only one with the power to enforce that is Square.

This has nothing to do with skill or wanting to quickly complete a duty. If you want a flawless group then put it together yourself with that winning personality of yours. This is about people who need communal disciplining because their parents clearly failed at teaching them basic social mores.

2. Quit the duty. No one is forcing you to play this game. If it offends you so much, just leave.

and third, the one and only solution : Grow thicker skin. If online harassment is enough to make you come to these forums and cry, the real world is going to eat you alive when you move out of mommy's basement.


Are you serious? I am a working adult and if anybody ever said anything even close to me like that at work they would be subject to INSTANT termination, and if I wanted to I could very likely press charges, criminal charges. The real world does not tolerate behavior like this by and large... its the entire "its the internet, stop being a baby and let the ahole just be one, whats wrong with you?!?!" that is complete an utter BS!

Also quit the duty? Why should I leave? I'm not the person being a complete ahole. Posts like this make me sick... its like blaming the victim in a crime... She shouldn't have warn that dress... he should have had his own gun... etc etc.

From the screenshot, my opinion is that the appropriate course of action is to report said person, then remove yourself from their presence.

People who go off like that should not simply be ignored, they need help in real life, but there is no way for us to accomplish that. All you can do is report them and hope that a temp ban will serve as a wake up call. If it doesn't, then eventually it will be a permaban.

Also, as noted the real reason this kind of behavior happens as often as it does online is because of a lack of consequences to deter it. Bans and Permabans are a consequence, but they don't happen unless reports happen, and reports take time and effort. Blacklisting but not reporting is effectively complacency, which effectively harms the community as it allows the problem to continue. It's certainly easier to just ignore and leave, but unless they are reported the issue will persist.

This isn't about "sucking it up" or whether you think the person being insulted/harassed/trolled should be able to handle it emotionally and move on. This is about what can/should be done to prevent it from happening further. Remarks such as the ones the OP linked to in the screenshot have no place in this game, and don't have to be accepted as inevitable. Square Enix should really look into beefing up their reporting features, as well as cracking down on this kind of behaviour.

Yes, people need to learn how to deal with bullies, difficult people, rudness, etc., in real life. What does that have to do with it? We have to learn to deal with disease, death, theft, and poverty, too. The way to "deal with" problems is not to turn a blind eye, shrug it off, and let them continue to run rampant. That's not "dealing with" anything. That is being lazy, and being a coward.

It's like when people say "Life isn't fair." No, it isn't. Which is why a successful community installs measures to ensure fairness as much as possible. Trolls like these are not a force of nature -- they are selfish individuals who can easily be reported to an authority capable of stopping them.

"These are just immature kids, they will learn some day." Yeah, and they can start learning now that this kind of behaviour won't be tolerated, by having their account terminated. Wouldn't you say that's a good way to learn?

I'll be honest up front and say I only read the first couple pages of the thread, so my reply may be a little repetitive (in fact, I'm sure it will be as I saw many other replies stating more or less what I wanted to say).

I read the messages in the screenshot, and while I will admit the person was clearly trying to be offensive when he asked the tank to bash the eruptions and nothing else, if this gets your panties in a twist, you aren't going to last long in many games.

People will come out and tell me that they have never run into such language in a game before, this is totally groundbreaking new ways to harass, and I will gladly call them liars.

I have been playing online games since Diablo 1 and behavior like this has been around just as long as I have had the pleasure of dealing with others online.

This is not bullying, this is someone taking out their frustration on a tank who doesn't know the fight. Sure, they could have been nicer about it, but they are not required to care about your delicate sensibilities, especially if you (in this case, the tank) are clearly not taking the time to care about their delicate sensibilities by doing your job correctly during the fight, causing wipes.

As I have nothing to go on past the messages themselves, it's impossible for me to say 100% if it was the tank's fault or if blame was being misplaced on him or her, but from the messages they only seem to be irate at the fact that the tank was unable to properly land their interrupts. It's difficult, having to endure the ridicule of others, but that doesn't make it bullying, it just makes them mean and you oversensitive. I have taken abuse like that countless times, some justified and some unjustified, and the only way you're going to last is if you learn to ignore it and realize it's just words and they only hurt you if you let them. The reason for this is, even with a banning system in place so you can feel your revenge lived out by writing up a ticket that may or may not go anywhere (as you'll never know assuming SE's policy on bans is like every other online companies', they investigate but don't tell you the action taken), these people will still exist and even if you get them banned, they won because you gave them the reaction they were looking for.

Online bullying, or cyberbullying as it's taken to being called the past number of years, is (as was stated earlier in the thread) repeated abuse from the same person or group of people, singling you out for no reason than to cause you anguish. I seriously doubt that the person calling the tank all those expletives then followed him to his server to harass him some more.

Maybe FFXIV in 1.0 had a different community in duty finder than 2.0 does, I can't say as I didn't play then, but a knee jerk "ban everyone who hurts my feelings for using bigoted words on the internet" isn't going to make the new community go away. You can instate bans for bad language, but the best recourse is one from both SE's side and the player's side. Learn to deal with the language and not let it affect you, put them on ignore, and have SE implement a function to disassociate your account from the other person's for future duty finds.

Putting the expectation of resolution solely on SE's shoulders is only going to lead to more hurt feelings when you find out that it didn't work and people are still mean, as banning them is not going to change how a large number of the population acts. I'm wholly willing to support cleaning up the community, but some people prefer to be more crass than others and prefer the company of people who can give just as much as they can take, and restricting their play because you don't like the words they use in a single situation of dealing with them instead of disassociating with them is just as unfair as you would find needing to put up with their abuse. Ostracization is the best recourse, especially where money coming in is concerned, and that is better achieved through ignoring and preventing them to play with you than an outright ban.

I play with friends who say some nasty, terrible things (by the standards of some people in this thread), and I'm willing and able to give right back to them because we as people grew up in environments where such was normal in the real world. We stay friends, don't get upset over trash talking and have a good time all the same. Someone who grew up in a more sheltered environment being unable to cope doesn't move us to offer sympathy as we already know you shouldn't take it personally. Has this netted me some enemies, online and offline? Yes. Has this netted me some people who would rather avoid me than deal with me, online and offline? Yes. Do I particularly care? No, because my friends are not in those two groups, and I'm fine with not talking to someone who I don't see eye to eye with if they don't want to talk to me. Chances are, despite what people say, many of the 'abusers' fall into a similar mindset that I do, because I don't recall ever being bullied offline and my life, while not overly glamorous, is one I enjoy that I fill with people who care about me and who I care about.

I generally don't say anything in these situations where there's a bad player in my group I don't know personally who can't do his job and so the dungeon fails because my opinion is unpopular and I'd rather just kick them and find someone who can do their job, something that we're unable to currently do. It may seem harsh, but you can practice interrupts on creatures outside until you get it down pat to try again, you're wasting not only your time but the time of three other people if you don't have the personal ability to do what's necessary to complete the instance. Sure, they could have been nicer about it, and they should probably get a warning for language, but you should also learn to cope so it doesn't ruin your day. I'm not saying this as a resolution, I'm offering a word of advice because even if they get banned, there are a lot more like them out there who aren't banned and probably never will be, despite tools being in place.

Edit#2:

The reason for my way of thinking is I believe people care far too much about what someone else thinks of them or says to them. I have no time to care about someone who only wants to be mean to me (especially if it's just verbally, what does it matter?), so I don't spare them the effort to do so, and I preach this to everyone who has a problem with mean language in a video game or real life. I prefer colourful language because English, my tongue of choice, has so many words to use and it'd be a shame not to find a place for them all, something I blame on my mother as she was an English teacher.

This quote is fitting, if a little pretentious. “Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.” - Buddha

/rambling

While I haven't had any problems with trolling in this game, I would just leave the instance and re-roll with players from my own server (DF is crap, anyways). And get the other players to leave as well. That's the best revenge for the Gamer troll. Make him either die constantly in game, or make him re-roll. Report him. And move on~


Edit
Double points, if you get them either temp ban or perma banned. Because harassment is still technically against the rules,
And the Business world doent mess around with rule breaking~

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Originally Posted by Gojeran

If online harassment is enough to make you come to these forums and cry, the real world is going to eat you alive when you move out of mommy's basement.

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In the "real world," people get their asses beat for the shit said in that screenshot. People lose their jobs and their social standing over that shit. We're not the ones that will be eaten alive, they will.

oh, i forgot to mention OP

auto translate your message into japanese using google translate when you send in your screenshot and they will be banned 100%.

:p

I love people that think not doing anything is better than being pro-active in these situations. Anybody that feels that way is a coward. It's not about "having thicker skin" or "sucking it up" as all the big, bearded bros with barbed wire tattoos on their arms would tell you. You guys are so tough and cool, I wish I could be as passive and uncaring as all of you badasses in this thread.

It's about building a better community as a whole.

This isn't the real world, this is a video game we pay to play, created by Square-Enix. The real world rules don't apply, but this game does have it's own set of rules and regulations. We can choose to ignore them or enforce them, or in some cases, bring in better options to handle these situations.

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Originally Posted by Jinzuki

Haven't seen so many internet tough guys all in one thread.

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It's nothing to do with being an internet tough guy. I just learned at an early age, thanks to my wonderful mother, that words only have as much power as you give them. If you give them no meaning, they have none. Being a veteran for my respective country, I can honestly say that someone talking trash on the internet is the least of my concerns. 9 times out of 10, they wouldn't say it face to face, so why lend it any mind?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I don't really think that's the right mentality to have.

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Yes it is. This is a GAME. Not real life. If someone bothers you there are options. Like leave the party or just get up and walk away from the game for a while, blacklist them...

Your options compared to an actual physical confrontation are much greater. I do not condone bullying and agree physical "in person" bullying is a serious issue. But complaining about "online" or "virtual" bullying is just stupid. YOU HAVE OPTIONS.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

It's nothing to do with being an internet tough guy. I just learned at an early age, thanks to my wonderful mother, that words only have as much power as you give them. If you give them no meaning, they have none. Being a veteran for my respective country, I can honestly say that someone talking trash on the internet is the least of my concerns. 9 times out of 10, they wouldn't say it face to face, so why lend it any mind?

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That doesn't mean that we should ignore it.

Just because you learned to take shit and walk away doesn't mean people should have to put up with this behavior.

Christ, think about something other than yourself for once.

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Originally Posted by Trisam

I had a nice reply written up that I felt covered the points I wanted to hit, but unfortunately the 1000 character limit prevents me from posting both the long version or the abbreviated version, so instead of posting something even shorter that may lead to misconceptions about what I'm trying to say, I'm going to go off topic for this one post and voice my displeasure at the incredibly short word limit.

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The 1000 character limit does not apply when you edit a post, so you can get around it by typing it up, Copying it to the clipboard, posting a 10 character post, then clicking the edit button and pasting the real post.

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Originally Posted by Xerich

That doesn't mean that we should ignore it.

Just because you learned to take shit and walk away doesn't mean people should have to put up with this behavior.

Christ, think about something other than yourself for once.

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You don't even know me to make such a remark lol. Considering I have children and a girlfriend, I think about "something other than myself" quite a bit. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Dschlitz

We will see them disappear when the trial period is over.

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Yep, i feel this as well. They will be gone soon most likely.

I usually put them on ignore (blacklist here), and report if really bad, like here, even if i know nothing will happen to them. Though in the real world, just look at how people have gotten fired and mocked for speaking like this. Lets just say it's good i'm not a GM, i'd start deleting his gear, slowly, then strand him in an area he couldn't get out of. He'd be lucky if i just banned him.

Thankfully, i've only had rage quiters in DF, with way more good ones that help restore my faith in the game and the people that play it.

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Originally Posted by BrainWoodstock

God, i miss the time where i could say that someone is bad, because he is bad, without them beeing butthurt. Soak it up, grow up or do something else.

I never even met such a person in duty finder, i really think you are totally overreacting as 95 % of the online community. And such playser are mostly really young ones that just dont know better, when they grow up they will learn it.

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Only way children learn, is if there are consequences to their bad behaviour. Ignoring it, is not a consequence they fear. Ban them. I'm sure they'll learn a little faster.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

You don't even know me to make such a remark lol. Considering I have children and a girlfriend, I think about "something other than myself" quite a bit. Have a nice day.

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Based on what you previously said, I think I can make a pretty good assessment.

You expect everyone to be the same as you, react the same as you, and feel the same as you - sounds pretty selfish to me. Same as all of these other internet badasses.

Everyone has the same background and experience with bullies/trolls/theinterwebs right? Let's ignore the problem. THAT will fix it.

You do know there is a harassment report feature?

This really is a case of suck it and stop being such a pansy!

You do understand this is the internet right? These are words, that some ignorant idiot is spitting at this screen whilst ranging about someone no being "good enough" at a video game?!

Blacklist them and grow up! Someone walking up to you on the street in person and bashing you cuz yer gay is one thing but some idiot spewing hate over the internet is another...

We live in a world of hurt feelings now, and it's breeding more and more pansies!

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Originally Posted by d4rkie

One thing you can do right now is take screenshots, search the name on the lodestone and report them using the "Harassment" channel. This is why I want a dota-like reporting system during and after duties, so that these guys will never get away easily.

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The amount of people giving negative reports simply out of spite or annoyance via a system like that, as opposed to someone with a legitimate grievance, would be overwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Xerich

Based on what you previously said, I think I can make a pretty good assessment.

You expect everyone to be the same as you, react the same as you, and feel the same as you - sounds pretty selfish to me. Same as all of these other internet badasses.

Everyone has the same background and experience with bullies/trolls/theinterwebs right? Let's ignore the problem. THAT will fix it.

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Again with the assumptions. You don't know my expectations. You got a snippet and think you know the entire book. The hypocrisy is strong in this one.

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Originally Posted by Lomax21

You do know there is a harassment report feature?

This really is a case of suck it and stop being such a pansy!

You do understand this is the internet right? These are words, that some ignorant idiot is spitting at this screen whilst ranging about someone no being "good enough" at a video game?!

Blacklist them and grow up! Someone walking up to you on the street in person and bashing you cuz yer gay is one thing but some idiot spewing hate over the internet is another...

We live in a world of hurt feelings now, and it's breeding more and more pansies!

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I love how the people who are being harassed are considered the problem in your eyes. If this is the normal way of thinking, it's no wonder society is messed up.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

It's nothing to do with being an internet tough guy. I just learned at an early age, thanks to my wonderful mother, that words only have as much power as you give them. If you give them no meaning, they have none. Being a veteran for my respective country, I can honestly say that someone talking trash on the internet is the least of my concerns. 9 times out of 10, they wouldn't say it face to face, so why lend it any mind?

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There are certainly times when one should just walk away, but in this case, you also have the choice to *****slap them on your way out by reporting them, and I see no reason why one shouldn't.

Being a veteran myself, I see absolute zero relation between what goes on in the sandbox and how I respond to trolls in a MMO.

There is a report harassment feature. If you feel somebody has crossed the line from criticism to degradation then by all means do the rest of us a favor and report the chatlog.

Otherwise, poor attitude is the nature of the beast. The same kiddies being coddled with 'everbody wins' sports and parents who find spanking 'medieval' are the same ones online harassing people because they know there are no repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Nica

There are certainly times when o e should just walk away, but in this case, you also have the choice to *****slap them on your way out by reporting them, and I see no reason why one shouldn't.

Being a veteran myself, I see absolute zero relation between what goes on in the sandbox and how I respond to trolls in a MMO.

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I never said not to report them. I merely said don't let them personally affect you as they've no relevance to you as a person or your life. The relation was that there are much harsher things in this world than some kid on the internet talking trash because of his own personal inadequacies.

If you think you can change how people are on the internet, you've got another thing coming. Don't be delusional; anonymity turns otherwise normal people into raving idiots, and trying to enforce rules to combat it will just make it worse. A lot worse.

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Originally Posted by wirewitch

I love how the people who are being harassed are considered the problem in your eyes. If this is the normal way of thinking, it's no wonder society is messed up.

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You have the option to leave the group and find another.. This isn't the first game or social media interaction where some people will get off on being mean to someone else..

Either you are new at the interwebz thing or maybe your parents didn't toughen you up at all?

If someone flips you off on your morning drive to work, do you think a) lol what an idiot... or b) break down in tears, pull over and have a good cry for 15 mins?

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

It's nothing to do with being an internet tough guy. I just learned at an early age, thanks to my wonderful mother, that words only have as much power as you give them.

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Sorry, but I really dislike the 'ignore it and it will go away' mentality. Just because you refuse to believe it's a legitimate problem, doesn't mean it isn't one. People pay to enjoy the game, not be insulted by the lowest dregs of humanity and certainly not by the idiots who were in the initial posted screenshot.

I'm fine with criticisms, but if you're type who stands by while someone is receiving verbal abuse then you're as much a part of the problem as the antagonist is. You stated you have children, and I very much doubt that you would stand idly by while your child is receiving that level of abuse. You wouldn't let your kid be attacked, so why do we tolerate it just because it's online? Sorry, but I don't see a distinction.

Its...truly a shame how many people are saying this is acceptable. Sometimes you can just brush it off and move on, but this is pretty extreme. I would have looked this person up on the Lodestone, find out what server they are from and reported them asap whether or not it was directed at me. This sort of thing isn't acceptable online or...well, anywhere really. I don't care what the circumstances were or how frustrated this person was, you don't act like that.

A lot of people like to say its just the anonymity of the internet or Duty Finder that causes this...But I don't buy that for a second, I never have. If they act like this online, chances are they do it offline as well. I've seen a lot more nice and helpful people than not though...so I guess that's something.

Turn off Party Chat.

People take their vidyagames too seriously ( regarding the person who shot their mouth off to the poor receiver ).

I'd go for the reporting bit.

Some of the responses in this thread are........strange, if anything. Not sure if faith in this community is restored or degrading.....I guess it should be about even though. Through the internet we are capable of finding out how truly vile the human race can be towards one another and/or kind to one another. Two sides of the same coin, we have some who honestly just don't care about what they say to people, and those whom are more sincere. Then you have other's who, well like in this thread, choose to ignore it, and in turn call other's "pansies" or for them to stop being "butthurt" and on the other side you have those whom say this shouldn't be ignored. While the 2nd example holds some truth for both sides; no it shouldn't be ignored and to just suck it and move on, but at the same time, don't let it get you down either. People can be cruel, and it shouldn't ruin your day. Some posts in here are an example of both sides of that very same coin.

Give it some time, once they get their act together it will be like Nazi germany again or atleast how it used to be in FFXI.

In FFXI I got a 3 day suspension for putting a swastika on my search comment. I got another 3 day for telling someone to kill themselves. Then I got perma banned for something similar I don't want to talk about lol. Granted, I was 16 at the time and I was a douche, the kind of douche you just want to curbstomp haha. Fortunately I grew out of that crap.

Anyways, give them time to sort out their other issues first and once they're settled in I'm sure they'll be pretty hardass on everyone lol. For now, just report them and try to move on if you can, if not then keep on their support, I'm sure they'll help you.

SE has a feature for this very problem... USE IT!?

You are NEVER going to change this type of behaviour on the internet... It's not a point of just "ignore it" as it is open your eyes and get on with it...

The fact this thread is going on is making some trolls very happy... I don't like this kinda crap as much as anyone else does... It's not going to change so you really have two options

People keep throwing around words like society... as it's been said before I'm sure, the internet can take a normal every day person and turn them into a raving idiot...Good point in case.. I know lots of good people, some of them smoke. Well i can tell you even the best mannered (or so they think) smokers will light up next to you and not think twice of it... or toss the butt on the ground... Everyday people being ignorant.. Rather then freaking out I just move away..