Discussion: User Created UI Addons?

Honestly I'd just keep everything vanilla but scale everything up 1.5x to make them easier to read from further away from the screen

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

If what others are doing are impacting our ability to play then it becomes a concern.

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I'm so tired of this...only you impact your ability to play. If you let what other people think ruin your game, then I'm sorry but you're just as much to blame.

One of the biggest complaints of user created addons and UI adjustments, is that people think it makes everything "too cluttered" or ugly. They generally have seen a handful of screenshots of people that plaster their screen with addons, meters, charts and all kinds of crap and think that's what will happen.

What they don't seem to understand is that you do not need to do that. Just because you can add hundreds of addons and fill your screen doesn't mean you should. Most people that know what they're doing will generally only use what they deem necessary and keep their screen clutter free. People just need to understand that it's players who make addons bad, not addons themselves. I myself prefer a minimalist approach to what is on screen, and the things that are there are generally scaled down and tucked neatly away where they aren't detrimental to what it is I'm actually trying to accomplish. If I don't need it, it's not on my screen. If it's somewhat useful but I don't need to see it all the time, I'll have it run in the background and call for it when necessary.

As for damage meters, I understand where people are coming from with how they think it just becomes a numbers game. But what you need to know is that it is already a numbers game. There are minimum standards to how a player needs to perform, and in games like WoW, there are damage standards based upon the quality of their gear. If you have better gear than someone else in your group, you're expected to be doing more damage than them. If they're doing more, it's a clear indication that you're just simply not pulling your weight. You need to either A: learn to play properly, or B: deal with being replaced. It's not "ur geer sux u noob", it's "you don't understand your class and need to practice".

As for things like this:

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

in battle i can see how much damage i do, and how others do. personally i dont need it.

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No, this is wrong. Eyeballing is the absolute worst possible way to know how you're performing. This was an issue in XI for years (and still is), where players think they're performing well, when in reality they're not. You can not watch your damage scroll by on screen and know how well you're doing. You have no idea what your acc is, what your average white/ws/ability damage is, crit rate, etc. unless you actually parse it. No, you don't need to compare it to other players. You can still use it solely on yourself to have valid data on how you're doing though.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

I'm so tired of this...only you impact your ability to play. If you let what other people think ruin your game, then I'm sorry but you're just as much to blame.

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Please note what I said:

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If what others are doing are impacting our ability to play then it becomes a concern.

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If what someone else is doing *DOES* impact someone elses ability to play, then it DOES become a concern for that someone else.

This has nothing to do with what others 'think' but what others 'do'.
This also has nothing to do with 'ruin' but only saying it will 'impact'.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

No, this is wrong. Eyeballing is the absolute worst possible way to know how you're performing. This was an issue in XI for years (and still is), where players think they're performing well, when in reality they're not. You can not watch your damage scroll by on screen and know how well you're doing. You have no idea what your acc is, what your average white/ws/ability damage is, crit rate, etc. unless you actually parse it. No, you don't need to compare it to other players. You can still use it solely on yourself to have valid data on how you're doing though.

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if you need a tool to know that you play well.. or to see if your equipment is better than the old one.. then go ahead. i think you lack of an abillity because of kind of tools like that.

if you add up your stats of your equipment you sure will know if your crit rate is going to be bigger or whatever.
when i have equipped armor with a total of +100 critical rates instead of +50 critical rates bonus..i will probably have a better crit rate then..

hell for what do i need a parser for that to see THIS difference?

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

You have no idea what your acc is, what your average white/ws/ability damage is, crit rate, etc. unless you actually parse it.

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add up your dam stats from your armor template. thats about it. there is no need for a parser to see the difference between well and bad equipped players.

when i have a crafted armor template which includes 80+ acc in a total i can see that my accuracy is much higher than an armor that just adds +20 acc

also i can see the difference between a player who knows how to use his skills properly .. and a player who sucks at it or isnt that efficient.

Just because you have higher numbers doesn't mean you have any idea on what your % is. You can add your stats and know that you have capped acc? Too much acc for a given fight? Not enough? Once players find out the specific of mob stats that can be possible, but until then you'll need some form of tool to get the specifics.

You're one of those players who just thinks "bigg numbors gud!" and call it a day, aren't you? I'm sorry, but blindly adding stats for the biggest number possible is NOT always the best way to go. As a general rule of thumb, yeah it's going to be better. But at some point you cap, and at some point those stats are wasted on something that would overall be more beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

if you need a tool to know that you play well.. or to see if your equipment is better than the old one.. then go ahead. i think you lack of an abillity because of kind of tools like that.

if you add up your stats of your equipment you sure will know if your crit rate is going to be bigger or whatever.
when i have equipped armor with a total of +100 critical rates instead of +50 critical rates bonus..i will probably have a better crit rate then..

hell for what do i need a parser for that to see THIS difference?



add up your dam stats from your armor template. thats about it. there is no need for a parser to see the difference between well and bad equipped players.

when i have a crafted armor template which includes 80+ acc in a total i can see that my accuracy is much higher than an armor that just adds +20 acc

also i can see the difference between a player who knows how to use his skills properly .. and a player who sucks at it or isnt that efficient.

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The point of a DPS meter is that it lets you judge on the fly what your performance is compared to the average or the minimum acceptable level, and it lets you adjust your tactics accordingly. Parsing the results after your raid has been wiping all night is not a good option.

The point of an item comparison and statistics addon is that it does the calculations on the fly. There are soft caps and diminishing returns on certain stats which aren't easy to figure out at a glance. Instead of going offline to figure this out with an excel macro (that you also most likely didn't make yourself), you can decide on the spot if an item is a worthwhile upgrade (and if it's not, maybe you won't be a d**k and pass it to someone who can really use it).

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Just because you have higher numbers doesn't mean you have any idea on what your % is. You can add your stats and know that you have capped acc?

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accuracy is a luck based term. that you have 90% accuracy doesnt mean, that you will just miss 1 hit of 10 hits everytime.
it can also mean that you miss 4 hits in a row, although you have 90% accuracy.


im coming from a hardcore RVR game (dark age of camelot) where people know how to reach the cap and max out their characters with formulas. and they did not used parsers for that. yet unbelievable.
and its not like it, that you as a player should be able to source out every fucking shit what is going on in the background of the game client. (i am 1 yard away from the target... woo* good to know for ya)
dont believe it, but it should be part of the gaming experience to know on YOUR OWN, if you are to close to the target, and that you get probably hit by pbaeo attacks by him.


i think its more like a cheat tool. and yea, i condemn the WoW playstyle of life!
i survived in MMOs pre WoW. unbelievable.

For the people who think addons are the devil and will ruin your game experience, I'm just going to reiterate the fact that you have the control over what you download, use, and the layout of your addons. Not anybody else.

You can be smart and do something such as this:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...7b3ee539c5.jpg

Instead of being a gigantic turd and doing something like this:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...a991660b1a.jpg

The interesting part about these screenshots, is that they both use roughly the same number of addons.

lapse of good taste or something?
both screenshots looking AWFUL to me. you play a game for the statistics, i play it for my roleplay gaming experience. for fun.

as i said

"and its not like it, that you as a player should be able to source out every fucking shit what is going on in the background of the game client. (i am 1 yard away from the target... woo* good to know for ya)
dont believe it, but it should be part of the gaming experience to know these things on YOUR OWN, if you are too close to the target, and that you get probably hit by pbaeo attacks by him.

thats a kind of cheating tool."



seriously its horrible that they are doing this to the FF franchise. we have no a user created UI's in offline FF's either, poor us.

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Originally Posted by Buddhsie

It took you a lot of words to say nothing!

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It's no wonder why we are living in the worst times since the Great Depression. Three paragraphs isn't a lot of words to get a point across.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

lapse of good taste or something?
both screenshots looking AWFUL to me.

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It's a comparison of a similar number of addons, and how you can either be smart with it and take the time to lay it out properly, or just vomit them all over the screen.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

you play a game for the statistics, i play it for my roleplay gaming experience. for fun

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As it turns out, you can play a game for the roleplay experience and for fun, while at the same time being successful and knowledgeable. If your idea of fun is to be no more than second best, then by all means go ahead, because nobody is stopping you. You've clearly shown that you neither have the motivation nor knowledge of what it takes to be better than average, but don't try to push your ignorance upon others simply because you do not agree with them.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

you play a game for the statistics, i play it for my roleplay gaming experience. for fun.

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If you're going to play the 'I play it for what I want to get out of it, you play it for what you want' card, then can I ask why you form an opinion on something like this?
Addons would be for those who want to use them. If you don't want to, then don't?

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Originally Posted by Melisenna

If you're going to play the 'I play it for what I want to get out of it, you play it for what you want' card, then can I ask why you form an opinion on something like this?
Addons would be for those who want to use them. If you don't want to, then don't?

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He's scared that people will use tools such a parser to find out that things such as:

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

accuracy is a luck based term. that you have 90% accuracy doesnt mean, that you will just miss 1 hit of 10 hits everytime.
it can also mean that you miss 4 hits in a row, although you have 90% accuracy.

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not only make him look idiotic, but that everything he said is simply not true.

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

It's a comparison of a similar number of addons, and how you can either be smart with it and take the time to lay it out properly, or just vomit them all over the screen.

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Let's not forget the fact that auto-hide for most addons has been a thing for years in WOW. When I was still playing, my raid bars, my DPS meter, team buffs/debuffs, non-raid chat log, inventory, minimap, and basically everything that wasn't related to me doing my job and killing the boss were hidden away.

I don't understand why people keep posting screen shots of horrible UI layouts and act like that was the de facto custom UI in WOW.

seriously it makes me sick after years to read "ya in WoW my fat d*ck-o-meter was so great etc."

when you think WoW is so great with stuffs like these.. then go play it... and seriously do you want that kind of community that you have in WoW?!

I think the SENSE of a game is not, that you can read out every numbers which are running in the background of the game. The SENSE of a game is to find stuff out on YOUR OWN.
GAMING EXPERIENCE

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

If your idea of fun is to be no more than second best, then by all means go ahead,

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im going to kick your WoW ass in PVP without a parser, trust me. :D ^^
skill -> tools

well the best btw for you would be to get a macro bot, which plays the game for you^

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

seriously it makes me sick after years to read "ya in WoW my fat d*ck-o-meter was so great etc."

when you think WoW is so great with stuffs like these.. then go play it... and seriously do you want that kind of community that you have in WoW?!

I think the SENSE of a game is not, that you can read out every numbers which are running in the background of the game. The SENSE of a game is to find stuff out on YOUR OWN.
GAMING EXPERIENCE



im going to kick your WoW ass in PVP without parser, trust me.
skill -> tools

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I like how in the breadth of the same post, you both make fun of WOW's community, insult the person you're replying to, and tell them you'd kick their ass at PVP. This is irony at it's most exquisite.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I like how in the breadth of the same post, you both make fun of WOW's community, insult the person you're replying to, and tell them you'd kick their ass at PVP. This is irony at it's most exquisite.

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good that you understood my irony ;)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

going to kick your WoW ass in PVP without a parser, trust me. :D ^^
skill -> tools^

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who uses damage meter in pvp?

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

in my opinion user interfaces are most of the time very ugly and overloaded ;XD

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hi. while not the best, this is an example of a clean raiding UI.

http://i.imgur.com/ApRnW.jpg

any raider worth their salt will try to maximize open visual real estate so they can see everything that's going on in dynamic battles and react accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

good that you understood my irony ;)

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I think they were laughing at you, not giving you props >_>

I'm under the opinion that add-on customization needs to be restricted to aesthetics only. If they need to open up an entire scripting API to allow for user add-ons then they aren't doing their job correctly. These games should be providing the information feedback players need to play the game through the graphic engine, not through the UI overlay.

Who the fuck uses a parser/damage meter for PvP??

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

when you think WoW is so great with stuffs like these.. then go play it... and seriously do you want that kind of community that you have in WoW?!

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I also fail to see what you see wrong with the WoW community.
There is a gigantic playerbase, which is a great thing since the company has revenue to continually release new content. Also it makes the game incredibly social and easy to find like-minded people.
Are you afraid of colourful graphics? Because aside from the graphic style, there is many things about ffxiv and WoW that are alike.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

I'm under the opinion that add-on customization needs to be restricted to aesthetics only. If they need to open up an entire scripting API to allow for user add-ons then they aren't doing their job correctly. These games should be providing the information feedback players need to play the game through the graphic engine, not through the UI overlay.

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That's a noble goal, but I quite frankly don't think it's feasible to provide that kind of instant feedback to someone without the use of numbers and other UI elements.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

im going to kick your WoW ass in PVP without a parser, trust me. :D ^^
skill -> tools

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http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...d32a538e85.png

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

That's a noble goal, but I quite frankly don't think it's feasible to provide that kind of instant feedback to someone without the use of numbers and other UI elements.

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There will be some obvious need for some UI overlay because of the genre but we shouldn't need things like RaidUI or stuff like auto-healing scripting mods. Content needs to be crafted with the capabilities of the default UI in mind. This also in turn sets the requirement that a UI be standardized. If they want to do something that the current UI can't handle well then a UI update needs to be part of the content release.

The high customization abilities of the WoW UI really needs to be looked at as model of failure, not success to be emulated. Opening your UI to allow scripted mods just opens up way too much possibility of abuse and many MMOs that have come along after WoW have realized this and have elected to lock down their UI while maintaining a reasonable amount of customization of the UI within the game to satisfy most players.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

There will be some obvious need for some UI overlay because of the genre but we shouldn't need things like RaidUI or stuff like auto-healing scripting mods. Content needs to be crafted with the capabilities of the default UI in mind. This also in turn sets the requirement that a UI be standardized. If they want to do something that the current UI can't handle well then a UI update needs to be part of the content release.

The high customization abilities of the WoW UI really needs to be looked at as model of failure, not success to be emulated. Opening your UI to allow scripted mods just opens up way too much possibility of abuse and many MMOs that have come along after WoW have realized this and have elected to lock down their UI while maintaining a reasonable amount of customization of the UI within the game to satisfy most players.

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I understand and agree with your sentiment that addon automation can be dangerous, but you are wrong in your assertion that WOW is an example of failure. In fact, WOW is the shining example of customization gone right.

The WOW developers have constantly kept an eye on addons. Addons that provided automation that was not replicable through the default UI were quickly stamped out; or they were integrated into the default UI in short order and TOSes were updated. The same for popular UI addons that didn't provide automation, like threat meters, floating combat text, raid warnings, or quest help.

WOW's default UI has steadily evolved over the years and "kept up" with addons, precisely for the reason that the developers didn't want let addons feel required. For all it's problems, UI development is the one thing that you cannot fault WOW on, because it's been getting it right since day one.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

The high customization abilities of the WoW UI really needs to be looked at as model of failure, not success to be emulated. Opening your UI to allow scripted mods just opens up way too much possibility of abuse...

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first: you're crazy if you think it was a failure. that's the direct opposite of reality. 9-12 million people using thousands and thousands of addons successfully- some of which being so popular that blizzard eventually adopts their functionality into its default UI... is a failure?

second: seriously out of the 9-12 million subs WoW has had over the last few years, can you show me some documented cases of people "abusing" addons in ways that violate ToS? or are you just pulling this completely out of your ass and making wild assumptions? because i'm leaning toward that.

third: those "many" mmos that have come along after WoW and elected to lock down their UIs- how have they fared, exactly? oh, right. they failed, or are failing. mmodata.net, bud. read it and weep.

i seriously don't know what the hell you're smoking, but you are clearly high.

UI for an MMO is an incredibly important thing. The fact that one of the top five complaints about this game was it's horrid UI, and the fact that FFXI purists always complain about this game's UI becoming more "WOW"-like, should be enough of an indication of its importance.

UI design is one of those things that developers can easily and safely crowdsource by letting people develop addons, and then reacting to and integrating things from the UI development community. This is something that the WOW devs realized and have done from day one, and it's why WOW's UI is still the standard/baseline UI for pretty much every MMO. If they hadn't let people develop addons, its UI would have been horribly outdated by now and would be one of the game's biggest weaknesses.

I'm more surprised that in an MMO game's forum people have the opinion that player made addons can be viewed as something detrimental to the game.

This community man... I have no words except this: You're entitled to your opinion but understand that you are WRONG.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

I'm more surprised that in an MMO community that player made addons can be viewed as something detrimental to the game.

This community man... I have no words.

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Yeah, a community of people developing for and supporting the game is detrimental, but a community of constant neighsayers and anti-progressives is not.

I don't know about this game sometime.

I hate User Mods. IMHO they are just cheating. Yes, there are mods that solely change controls and aesthetics, but most people use BS Mods that show them how to win at whatever they are doing and that is weak.

People who use Mods are the lowest level of Gamer.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

I hate User Mods. IMHO they are just cheating. Yes, there are mods that solely change controls and aesthetics, but most people use BS Mods that show them how to win at whatever they are doing and that is weak.

People who use Mods are the lowest level of Gamer.

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I can't tell if you're being ironic or not.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I can't tell if you're being ironic or not.

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Being a moron, judging by his post history imo.

I hereby decree that consulting a guide or asking other players about what you should do or what your objectives are is cheating. You are the lowest level of Gamer if you don't bubble yourself off from all human contact and content outside of the game.

So you guys think it's okay to build and use a mod that turns everything in to wire frame so you can see through walls while running a dungeon?

Or you think it's okay to build a mod that immediately identifies a Boss's Elemental and Damage type Weaknesses?

Or you think it's okay to build a mod that calculates NM spawn times/locations?

Or you think it's okay to build a mod that Auto-crafts?

Or you think it's okay to build a mod that Auto-gathers?

Or Auto-farms?

It's bad enough that Quest Tracker has become mainstream and all MMOs now imediately point you to the location of your objective. You want the game to play itself for you too?

What's the point of playing a game if all your going to do is modify it to make it easier? Don't try to pretend you wont. Moders are Moders and they all do the same thing.

"I'll just add this quest tracker. Hmm.. maybe I'll get this enmity meter too. Oh look this Mod will let me automate a series of attacks, that will be convenient. Hmm I haven't been able to get through that maze.. Mayb ei'll just grab this wire frame mod too.."

It's pathetic.

Play the Friggin game.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I hereby decree that consulting a guide or asking other players about what you should do or what your objectives are is cheating. You are the lowest level of Gamer if you don't bubble yourself off from all human contact and content outside of the game.

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There is a very large difference between asking someone for help and programming the game to play for you.

Yalm Counter (Can I Have It?)

In the end the developers of the game would determine the extent to which players could use mods to control their characters or automate processes. If they don't want you to be able to do something, it's as simple as not coding/giving you the API functions to do it.

There is, in fact, a broad spectrum of mods that don't play for you:
customized frames/aesthetics
customized button maps
damage meters
enmity meters
bag/inventory mods
recipe book mods
encyclopedia mods, such as for gathering
chat mods

WoW itself has some classic cases of mods whose API backbones were disabled because it was determined they trivialized certain game mechanics (one mod used to draw safe zones as transparent circles on the floor). If the developers undertake UI customization I'm sure they'd understand that they have a responsibility to maintain game integrity.