I think FFXIV should be more political actually

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Better question, where was Sonic when the Garlieans were forced up north by the great nations?

I'm just sayin', an Eorzia Fronters game mitebcool.

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I imagine the Death Egg Moonbase approaching Etheirys from space.

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Originally Posted by Aonns

I imagine the Death Egg Moonbase approaching Etheirys from space.

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Excuse me while I flex my artistic spectrum, but why would Dr. Robotnik drag out his death egg when a perfectly useable Allagan deathegg is in space holding a giant dragon? Drop Eggman land on Tulloya and robotizie Alexandria along with Wuk! :^D

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Excuse me while I flex my artistic spectrum, but why would Dr. Robotnik drag out his death egg when a perfectly useable Allagan deathegg is in space holding a giant dragon? Drop Eggman land on Tulloya and robotizie Alexandria along with Wuk! :^D

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I am all for Eggman appropriating Allagan technology! Especially since many of the nodes are already conveniently egg shaped!

Although, at this point in history, Dalamud has already fallen so he can't use that. But what he CAN do is place his ship in orbit in the same place Dalamud used to be, sending the world populace into a panic.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

I'm great with political intrigue in my fantasy games/stories. What I don't like is when said political intrigue is issues ripped right out of RL. Like someone copy/pasted a debate they read on social media between a liberal and a conservative. A fantasy world, in my view should have wholly FANTASY issues or issues that make sense in the setting. Modern Earth social debates as an example, feel really out of place for me in games with wholly fantasy dynamics.

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Has this ever been a thing in FFXIV, or are you tilting at windmills?

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

Has this ever been a thing in FFXIV, or are you tilting at windmills?

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It was weird that the JP script used him/her for the faries in the first but the western localization turned them androgynous for no reason outside of brownie points. Though the western localization has always been shaky. Wonder when we will get to see the blue blood clan that the song Rise was talking about. :^)

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Originally Posted by PorxiesRCute

Has this ever been a thing in FFXIV, or are you tilting at windmills?

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It was a simple response to the original post, agreeing, yes, I welcome politics in game, as long as they stay away from real life topics and debates. I thought what I said was pretty simple and easily understandable. It has nothing to do with what FF has or has not included. The fact remains that it is an ongoing issue in games as a whole. Former series that used to be strictly fantasy, later adopted controversial, too real themes that divided the fans. I don't want that to happen here. No series is immune to the personal beliefs of the creators seeping into their work at too great a level. That's the reason for the caveat portion of my answer. I will be okay with it, until that happens. If it doesn't, all the better.

Can you give an example of politics done well in fantasy which bares no relation to real world politics?

I swear, do you people here just love looking for arguments to simple statements and opinions? I've been here for all of a day and already have people looking for confrontation over harmless opinion. No wonder I was warned away from interacting with the fanbase at all by several people who have played longer than I. There are plenty of fantasy stories with original ideas that have nothing to do with modern, first world political ideas. You are being purposely obtuse.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

I swear, do you people here just love looking for arguments to simple statements and opinions? I've been here for all of a day and already have people looking for confrontation over harmless opinion. No wonder I was warned away from interacting with the fanbase at all by several people who have played longer than I. There are plenty of fantasy stories with original ideas that have nothing to do with modern, first world political ideas. You are being purposely obtuse.

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I'm just asking for an example from you. I don't see how that's being confrontational.

Why do you need an example if it isn't to attempt to pick it apart to find some loose correlation to something real? That is what this looks to clearly be.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

Can you give an example of politics done well in fantasy which bares no relation to real world politics?

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Talk about chasing windmills, lol. Of course RL events can bleed into fiction but people want that fantasy element to mix with the story. It's like the detective Pikachu movie taking a shot at global warming in a world where they subjugate pocket monsters with powers that would render that issue moot. Quit replacing an argument with being obtuse, lol.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

Why do you need an example if it isn't to attempt to pick it apart to find some loose correlation to something real? That is what this looks to clearly be.

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I'm just trying to understand your position. I don't think the thing you're asking for exists or can exist so I'm interested to learn where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Talk about chasing windmills, lol. Of course RL events can bleed into fiction but people want that fantasy element to mix with the story. It's like the detective Pikachu movie taking a shot at global warming in a world where they subjugate pocket monsters with powers that would render that issue moot. Quit replacing an argument with being obtuse, lol.

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That is similar to the opinion I was trying to convey. Loose political things are fine. War in a fantasy game over land, resources, religion etc.. fine. That is something to be expected within almost any setting. But having a group of knights sitting around in a fantasy world, with a development level of 14th century Europe having a chat about "commies" or modern gender theory makes no sense within the setting. I thought what I was alluding to was pretty clear. General politics = fine. Things specific to MODERN Earth, leave to settings that make sense, like those that take place ON Earth or a similar world, with similar populations.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I'm just trying to understand your position. I don't think the thing you're asking for exists or can exist so I'm interested to learn where you're coming from.

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I mean, I can name plenty. Final Fantasy 9 is a good one. It's completely whimsical. Sure it asks real philisophical questions about life, self-worth, identity/ self-purpose, etc.. But those are questions that can exist anywhere, in any setting realistically. They aren't sitting around talking about things like modern race issues, immigration, gender theory, etc. That's what I mean when I say loose political/social philosophies and something ripped right out of modern discourse.

And those topics are very toxic and divisive. I have seen fanbases eat themselves over such things. Dragon Age The Veilgaurd is a good recent example of a series and fanbase that self destructed over modern socio-political issues working their way into a fantasy setting.

I think it is fine to use something as inspiration if its presented in a way that shows competence and understanding of the subject matter.

If its delivered as an ultimatum then it's bad. Love Wuk Lamat or else. How about no.

And its the same with villain forces. Up to DT we were getting pretty thorough and balanced experiences. With Bakool Ja Ja they blazed through his societal trauma and instantly redeemed him. A lot of the themes in DT have real world correlations but they are handled with kid gloves.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

I mean, I can name plenty. Final Fantasy 9 is a good one. It's completely whimsical. Sure it asks real philisophical questions about life, self-worth, identity/ self-purpose, etc.. But those are questions that can exist anywhere, in any setting realistically. They aren't sitting around talking about things like modern race issues, immigration, gender theory, etc. That's what I mean when I say loose political/social philosophies and something ripped right out of modern discourse.

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I don't see FF9 as an example of a game that focuses on political themes or topics, let alone that handles them in a way that has no bearing on real world influences. Have a nice day.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

I don't see FF9 as an example of a game that focuses on political themes or topics, let alone that handles them in a way that has no bearing on real world influences. Have a nice day.

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"I don't see..."

Gonna elaborate on that and refute his points or just going to say "I don't see it therefore it doesn't count.", in a very wordy way? lol

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

"I don't see..."

Gonna elaborate on that and refute his points or just going to say "I don't see it therefore it doesn't count.", in a very wordy way? lol

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They have an opinion I don't share. The world is big enough for both of us. Is that ok with you?

IX definitely does not have a class based society nor any allusions to slavery. There's certain no nuclear weapons race in the form of summons. Black Mages don't form a collectivist society after being freed or anything.

Point being IX is political without lecturing you. Perhaps more importantly these subjects touch so many time periods and civilizations its hard to claim it "references a real world event" specifically.

Whereas if you just rip trends directly out of Western news from a specific set of years about a very specific topic and then make it a black and white situation with zero nuance it just makes the writer seem shallow.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

nor any allusions to slavery.

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tell that to the guys outside the lancer guild

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Originally Posted by Exmo

They have an opinion I don't share. The world is big enough for both of us. Is that ok with you?

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Cool opinion, but why you trying to frame it as an objective fact in your arguments? lol

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Cool opinion, but why you trying to frame it as an objective fact in your arguments? lol

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I would argue its not an opinion. FFIX may not appear to be political at all if you just weren't looking for it, or missed it, etc. However I think certain people on XIV's own writing team and some of its fans, are in a current political climate where if the politics are not slapping you in the face with an all or nothing agenda that paints the reader as a saint or the devil, then they simply see nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I would argue its not an opinion. FFIX may not appear to be political at all if you just weren't looking for it, or missed it, etc. However I think certain people on XIV's own writing team and some of its fans, are in a current political climate where if the politics are not slapping you in the face with an all or nothing agenda that paints the reader as a saint or the devil, then they simply see nothing at all.

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"I have an opinion"
"I would argue its not an opinion"

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q-YL7iythk8/mqdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I would argue its not an opinion. FFIX may not appear to be political at all if you just weren't looking for it, or missed it, etc. However I think certain people on XIV's own writing team and some of its fans, are in a current political climate where if the politics are not slapping you in the face with an all or nothing agenda that paints the reader as a saint or the devil, then they simply see nothing at all.

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And therein lies my whole point. You have to dig pretty deep and make some pretty bold assumptions to link anything in that game to a modern political or social talking point. You are correct that there is a difference between loose and generalized topics and putting something extremely specific into a game where it makes little sense. Imagine if Black Mage Village mages started talking about the means of production or how bad capitalism is. Or if some NPC in Lindblum started shouting about needing to tear the system down because the steam powered airships contribute to climate change. It would be 100 percent jarring, odd, and completely out of place, yet that kind of stuff seeps into a LOT of modern fiction where it makes little sense. I just want that very specific, agenda promoting stuff that causes absolute s- slinging in the fanbase to not seep into games I love. That's all I want. I wouldn't even want to see divisive points I agree with being shoved down other people's throats. It's meant to be an escape, after all. Otherwise, I'm fine with all of the stuff you listed that makes sense in the setting that is subtle, invokes deep thoughts, and isn't preachy.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

It was weird that the JP script used him/her for the faries in the first but the western localization turned them androgynous for no reason outside of brownie points. Though the western localization has always been shaky. Wonder when we will get to see the blue blood clan that the song Rise was talking about. :^)

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Is there structurally a problem with the idea of the fae being genderless? I think it makes sense for what they are.

Also I believe the Illuminati are called something along the lines of "Blue Hand" in Japanese. It's also their clan symbol.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Cool opinion, but why you trying to frame it as an objective fact in your arguments? lol

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What arguments do you think I'm making?

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

It was weird that the JP script used him/her for the faries in the first but the western localization turned them androgynous for no reason outside of brownie points. Though the western localization has always been shaky. Wonder when we will get to see the blue blood clan that the song Rise was talking about. :^)

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I don't have a problem with that change but as LGBT rep it feels empty when you can say they're not human as the excuse. Especially since they're probably the closest thing we get to trans characters in the MSQ and 7.3's now the third time they've added the creepy queer guy stereotype.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

What arguments do you think I'm making?

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Heck if I know, it's your job to convey your thoughts into words, not mine. So far every time I come across you, you seem to have this issue. :/

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Originally Posted by StormChase

I don't have a problem with that change but as LGBT rep it feels empty when you can say they're not human as the excuse. Especially since they're probably the closest thing we get to trans characters in the MSQ and 7.3's now the third time they've added the creepy queer guy stereotype.

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My issue is that it was changed from the JP source to this. It comes off as pandering at the least and defacing the source's script at worst.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Is there structurally a problem with the idea of the fae being genderless? I think it makes sense for what they are.

Also I believe the Illuminati are called something along the lines of "Blue Hand" in Japanese. It's also their clan symbol.

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It's called a joke, I know they are called Blue Hand in the JP script so why change it? Localization doesn't mean you openly change names. (Or perhaps it does since translating seems to be secondary to localizing a work)

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

My issue is that it was changed from the JP source to this. It comes off as pandering at the least and defacing the source's script at worst.

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I don't know what the deal with the fae is in the Japanese version, but I'm guessing if the localization team got the okay on making them genderless then there was probably already something that made it make sense.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Heck if I know, it's your job to convey your thoughts into words, not mine. So far every time I come across you, you seem to have this issue. :/

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If you are consistently unable to understand me, maybe you should stop stalking me. Just a suggestion

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

It was weird that the JP script used him/her for the faries in the first but the western localization turned them androgynous for no reason outside of brownie points. Though the western localization has always been shaky. Wonder when we will get to see the blue blood clan that the song Rise was talking about. :^)

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You're just wrong. Objectively wrong. The fae being genderless was agreed upon by the entire localization team, not just the EN team.

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Originally Posted by Pierre Pasquier from the French team

Now for challenging, I would say the pixies’ speech pattern. One lore point is that those creatures are agender. We used a male/neutral agreement for the Sylphs back in 2.0, but for the pixies we wanted to try something different. Since this gender-neutrality is never mentioned in the main story, we didn’t want to use special words that would warrant a reaction of surprise from the human characters. And so we thought “What if they never use gender-specific words to refer to themselves? That way, they have this speech characteristic without influencing the flow of the story.” We ended up going with this, but soon realized it could sometimes be very hard, even when using a lot of grammatical tricks and epicene words.

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It's a lore point agreed upon all the writers.

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Originally Posted by Kate from the EN Localization team

While I don’t regret asking if we could remove them from the gender binary, as it was about time that we established that precedent somewhere (it’s a surprise tool that will help us later!), seeing the challenges that presented for other languages has really been eye-opening. I am extremely thankful that our localization colleagues and the event team (members in charge of world lore creation and story) were willing to work with us there.

Personally, my favorite translations are the ones where I feel a strong attachment to the story and characters, and end up with an English version that I’m confident has the same emotional resonance as the Japanese. One of my favorite sections in that respect is the healer role quests in 5.0. Though I can’t quote the lines in specific (spoilers!), there’s a scene toward the end of that questline that I found very moving, but is written to emphasize a turn of phrase that sounds beautiful and elegiac in Japanese, and...clunky and emotionless when rendered directly into English. I spent quite some time laboring over that one, and I’m pretty proud of how I eventually captured the meaning and emotion of the scene. And players have responded well to those quests too, which makes me extra happy.

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It was explicitly challenging to translate this lore point into every language the game is played in. And there are plenty of lines that would just be chunky with a direct translation. So knock it off with this stupid "brownie points" talk. You're spreading misinformation and making your hatred obvious.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

You're just wrong. Objectively wrong. The fae being genderless was agreed upon by the entire localization team, not just the EN team. It's a lore point agreed upon all the writers.

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Localizers are not the writers of the JP script, you know, the origin of the game? Glad to know we are on the same page that it was a purely western change for no reason, I assume.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

If you are consistently unable to understand me, maybe you should stop stalking me. Just a suggestion

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As dead as the forums are, of course you are bound to talk to the same people day in and day out, lmao. Besides, all you do is appeal to emotion and fold the moment people poke holes at your flimsy takes. There's not much to understand tbh. :/

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Localizers are not the writers of the JP script, you know, the origin of the game? Glad to know we are on the same page that it was a purely western change for no reason, I assume.

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The localizers are just as invested in the writing of the game as the scenario directors. The lore itself is written in part by the localizers. See the "Thal's Balls!" curse that's everpresent in the setting. That's written by the localization team.

And you clearly ignored the bolded part that disproves what you're saying because you don't want to admit you're wrong. So I'll isolate it for you.

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One lore point is that those creatures are agender.

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Stop hoisting the Japanese script as a Bible when you can't even be arsed to cite actual sources. You either have a source or you're a liar and a troll.

Kate outright says in her own answer its a deviation from the source material. We knew that already since every voice except English is distinctly female.

As far as the quote from the French localizer, I do not find that statement clear. What is a "lore point" and what does "agender" mean in that context? Whose lore point? As others have said, Kate at least does strongly believe localizers are writers. Only 2 localizers comment on it so it's not unanimous. I would be interested to know what they said in full in French. In other words I am not sure if they were simply saying "we were told making them gender neutral is ok in this case". I very highly doubt Ishikawa was even thinking about something so dumb and proabably told them to just do whatever.

Put another way, Kate's answer ia redundant and even contradictory, if the French translator is accurately stating facts. So they have always been genderless, yet Kate needed to ask to portray them as gender neutral? Hence my skepticism. I think what the French translator actually said "well there was never a rule around this" and Kate said "yeah so we set the precedent in Shadowbringers by asking about it."

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

The localizers are just as invested in the writing of the game as the scenario directors. The lore itself is written in part by the localizers. See the "Thal's Balls!" curse that's everpresent in the setting. That's written by the localization team.

And you clearly ignored the bolded part that disproves what you're saying because you don't want to admit you're wrong. So I'll isolate it for you.



Stop hoisting the Japanese script as a Bible when you can't even be arsed to cite actual sources. You either have a source or you're a liar and a troll.

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So you are cool changing the original script? Good to know. Also, koji is well known to localize rather than translate the freakin' thing. (I get it Mr. fox, galka sasuage is very memey. Ty. :/)
Honestly, my biggest takeaway from all of this is that if Working Designs started a decade later, they would be as big as Funimation, lol.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

The localizers are just as invested in the writing of the game as the scenario directors. The lore itself is written in part by the localizers. See the "Thal's Balls!" curse that's everpresent in the setting. That's written by the localization team.

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They don't say "Thal's Balls!" in the original Japanese, so it's not really part of the lore. Just something they invented in the localisation as you said. Much like how they invented "The Lifestream" for the sake of an epic FF7 reference, and in doing so caused mass confusion for expansions to come over the nature of the earth veins and the aetherial sea among the English-speaking playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

You're just wrong. Objectively wrong. The fae being genderless was agreed upon by the entire localization team, not just the EN team..

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Oh, interesting side note on what is said in that quote:

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We used a male/neutral agreement for the Sylphs back in 2.0

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This is an accurate description of the "plant genders" that sylphs are described to have – one produces pollen only (their names have -xia suffix) and the other produces both pollen and seeds (-xio suffix) but then every bit of gendered language from other races just uses female and male and in multiple places gives the "cool fact" that it's the male that produces seeds – when seeds should be a good indicator that they are not in fact (or at least entirely) male. I've wondered whether that's meant to be an in-universe mistake or if it happened at the writing level, so it's good to know that the localisers do know what they're doing and it's the Eorzeans that got it back-to-front.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

They don't say "Thal's Balls!" in the original Japanese, so it's not really part of the lore. Just something they invented in the localisation as you said.

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Going from memory, but I believe it did feed back into the lore planning as the reason for separating Nald'thal into two aspects so they can have the characters swearing to Thal alone.

Similarly the Eorzean "seven heavens and seven hells" concept allegedly only picked up the seventh in addition to the six elements because "seven hells!" sounds better than "six hells!" in English.

I don't personally care what the localizers think about nonhuman characters with zero need for gender binary, especially not ones like pixies who are based on children. Why gender binary was ever a large concern, is kind of bizarre. From what I understand, it has moreso to do with deciding how to write they/them while trying to fit the Japanese.

And any localizer who thinks its some kind of political statement, is a weirdo.