Here we go again

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Connor

Honestly I haven’t done Meso Terminal yet (ok maybe I forgot about the 7.2 trial lol), but whenever I see this topic I just think, ‘isn’t trust/npc runs already easy mode?’.

They're usually well-trained enough that you can easily follow / reflect what they to do to see mechanics resolved. Plus there’s weird stuff like their super condensed movesets having inflated potencies to try and make them a bit closer to what players do.

---

On DPS, dungeon trusts are IMHO actually hard mode compared to players. They will only heal so much "off-script". If you die, it is start over, not get ressed. You typically must actually learn the mechanic, you can't just coast through with extra effort from healers.

You can get away with so much more slop with actual players compared to relying on trust NPCs. Sure, you can follow them to safe spots, but for things like dungeon boss 2, that doesn't work.

That's just general commentary though. The biggest thing with MT Boss 2 is it is really the game's first "personal responsibility" boss where 85% of it is all on you. I thought invasion interesting, only opinion is the spike ball AOE range is a bit overtuned for the small space you have to work within.

I did this as a healer and actually found it to be quite fun and engaging.
Skill issue I'm afraid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The healer argument around the power of raidwides in casual content is one of the few truly problematic problems with casual balance of the internal healer balance because these raidwides ars a complete joke on the shield healers but can be annoying on the regen healers because you simply can’t mitigate them as effectively as the shields can

People in this game are trained to think the shields are harder for some reason but they are just genuinly better for literally every piece of content if you want to run a healer

---

Yep. I chose to get white mage to 100 as my healer. Everything seems to hit far harder than ever and I mitigate everything I possibly can.

What's personally frustrating is I used to main Scholar and leveled Sage because I liked shield healing, but found out with an old attempt at savage raiding that I "overhealed" in content and should be doing more DPS. So I completely swapped over and stopped being a healer main entirely.

But now I can barely keep up in basic content?

EDIT: People really missing the point OP was making that DT's content is the first time story content was physically impossible for them to do and it's not a matter of just building skill.

There is an argument to be made against DT's main story being objectively harder is pushing players out. People have been saying DT's just a bit too difficult since it launched.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RedLolly

Yep. I chose to get white mage to 100 as my healer. Everything seems to hit far harder than ever and I mitigate everything I possibly can.

What's personally frustrating is I used to main Scholar and leveled Sage because I liked shield healing, but found out with an old attempt at savage raiding that I "overhealed" in content and should be doing more DPS. So I completely swapped over and stopped being a healer main entirely.

But now I can barely keep up in basic content?

---

that just means there's room for you to improve on healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fawkes

I did that with trusts so it reset when I died, what happens with that fight when someone dies? It didn't let the trusts help me with mine when they killed theirs, does it only let you fight them if the person dies? Or were the trusts just not programmed to help?

---

If you're in a party with others, you can get rezzed and resume on the enemy you were chained to initially by just going back in the circle. I'm not sure if it's completable without all 4 players, haven't seen that yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PharisHanasaki

What the game needs is a freaking useful tutorial, and actual mentors, not the kind that play just for the icon.

---

Agree. This game's tutorial sucks. They've made it better but it's still not where it should be. I feel like there also needs to be a shift in community attitude towards allowing people to give new players advice and criticism. I'm a mentor and many times I feel like I have to hold my tongue because someone might react negatively to me telling someone they're doing wrong or asking someone politely to pick up the pace in a dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

I don't think an easy mode is the solution you seek. What they should do is what they do in the Duty Support trials : have that stacked buff that lets you survive death twice before actually wiping. In dungeon with players difficulty is okay because even if you die, you can get a rez and things move forward. In Duty Support, the fight just wipes and it feels kinda bad and punishing for nothing.

---

I think this is a decent take, actually. I didn't even know that was a thing for trials since I rarely do trusts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

If you want to deal with these mechanics, the solution is to always play it safe and assume the worst : for these spiked balls, yes you don't see the AoEs at first, but you can guess that it's going to be a round shape. So the reflex to have is to go next to the wall, away in between two of them, and then you'll see the actual AoE and learn where to position for the next one.

I know the philosophy of the game is ABC : Always Be Casting, but really if this type of mechanic makes you struggle (which is fair, not pointing fingers), disengaging and focusing on your movement is a good way to solve them without dying too much.

---

This. If you're struggling it's better to just stop and pay attention to mechanics to resolve them rather than pushing yourself to do your rotation 100% of the time and dying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The healer argument around the power of raidwides in casual content is one of the few truly problematic problems with casual balance of the internal healer balance because these raidwides ars a complete joke on the shield healers but can be annoying on the regen healers because you simply can’t mitigate them as effectively as the shields can

People in this game are trained to think the shields are harder for some reason but they are just genuinly better for literally every piece of content if you want to run a healer

---

Depends. For casual content shield healing can be harder, because it benefits hugely from fight knowledge and anticipating damage. Regen healers are much better at recovering from mistakes. In a hardcore setting they become way better as you have better coordination and planning for mechanics.

I agree with most of the people in here about the game's difficulty. We don't need an easy mode, that'll just take dev time away from improvements that this game actually desperately needs.

Had a Healer die at the Meso Terminal's second boss, used a Phoenix Down and everything was fine.
Even If you die as a healer, just get a rez from one of the dps it's fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiaBlaze-Cari

It's MSQ content so it should be designed for everyone to be completed without much issues and not being a frustrating experience for some. I personally did not have any troubles with the new dungeon but I can clearly see why it is hard for others and can be impossible for some too, be it disabilities, age or any other circumstances.
In a week people will be clearing this blindfolded, yea maybe, it still doesn't address the actual issue tho. Those who struggle now due to the aforementioned reasons won't magically have these issues disappear in a week, plus I doubt they'll want to do this dungeon more often than necessary.

---

This. It's fine if a story mode in a game is designed around being easy and fun. That means everyone can have a chill, enjoyable experience while going through the story. Then we can make the argument that there can be more complexity in the optional content since it is optional content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardeth

I've died like 5 times on that second boss. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I'm gonna take a break from it and try again later. I'm only pushing 40, but some of those mechanics were just too fast for me.

Anyway that's my feedback and people will make fun of me forgetting that I am not them.

Anyway, I hope you guys luck in your next attempt.

---

Are you on dps? I always do my first run with Duty Support as a dps so I can properly learn the mechanics. There's something you have to kill and I couldn't really make it out at first so I died many times until I saw it.

I gather that mechanic changes based on your role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aidorouge

was done in response to hardcore content, Forked Tower in particular it seems.

---

Casuals were in my Forked Tower reclears.

People need to stop being so dramatic. I'm nearly 40 and mastered the dungeon after 2 runs. My reflexes are only getting slower. The thing about this dungeon is nothing about it is new other than putting a spin on an already existing attack. We are well past the point of "only going to dodge if an orange puddle shows up".

I once had to unbreak a tank in savage before (casual group) because they kept being overwhelmed. I told him to stop focusing on irrelevant information. That fixed him. You have a lot of time to react to most mechanics in this dungeon. I just sort it out in my head and prune out the unnecessary info. Nothing here is a split second react mechanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khutulun

From experience with a thread back around DT's launch, some players have not learned that there's more to tells then the orange juice puddles. When I see "reflexes" brought up I'm (in general) suspicious that the player in question is only reacting to attack markers meant to show your mistake (which you are not meant to react to).

---

I am getting the tells off the objects, but seeing them, processing where they are, determining a safe spot, and moving to it, is not something I can do rapidly enough.

This doesn't surprise me. Over the last 20 years my Rapid and Blitz chess Elo have diverged massively. I used to multitable 12 online poker games, now I can barely manage 6. If I was mobile enough to go to the grocery store, it'd likely take me 15 seconds to decide between paper and plastic. It is fucking painful.

(And let's skip the anecdotes about an octogenarian or someone with no arms clearing ultimates. Edge cases are irrelevant. As this and other threads demonstrate, hitting a difficulty wall in DT is a common problem.)

Gaming is at a unique epoch. At its inception, most gamers were young. That generation is now pushing 60 and beyond and experiencing cognitive and physical decline. SE can choose to kick such people to the curb (despite there being other options available to keep everyone happy). Removing this portion of the player base is clearly what some of you want. Thanks for twisting the knife.

Can one be carried through dungeons? Sure! Where's the enjoyment in that? Particularly when one comes here and reads "How can a level 100 player not complete this braindead content?"

Since I'm leaving soon, thanks and goodbye to those of you I have met in game and on these boards who have been fun and supportive. I hope you continue to enjoy your journey in FFXIV and in life.

To those of you who respond to these threads with open contempt for those who struggle, while throwing around "git gud," "skill issue," and "this game is sooooo easy!" You disgust me. I hope you discover the empathy I believe sits within everyone before you ruin your life and the lives of others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

To those of you who respond to these threads with open contempt for those who struggle, while throwing around "git gud," "skill issue," and "this game is sooooo easy!" You disgust me. I hope you discover the empathy I believe sits within everyone before you ruin your life and the lives of others.

---

...On a video game forum?

I mean I sympathize, but what should the devs cater to/tune to? They could make it easy enough for you and the other players in this thread having trouble to clear easily in one try with no effort, but there will undoubtedly be someone else who still can't clear due to any number of issues. There are also much more annoying and difficult things in the MSQ prior to this particular dungeon boss. Is this just the straw to break the camel's back or...?

Just make it so the trust npcs can res people instead of auto wiping
I don't want content made easier because of this, just make it so trusts are "carry me" mode is the right solution

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bitmoar

Is this just the straw to break the camel's back or...?

---

No. This thread has popped up every single patch. Every one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EusisLandale

Near the minimum item level? I'm 737 on Sage and getting hit once will typically leave me at about 10-15%. Lesson learned from bad timing on a normal cast of Egeiro.

---

I was on DRG with i734 and the spiked balls and claws were a one hit kill. Didn't get hit by the electric fence thing, but a friend on VPR got one hit KOd from it. It may be tuned to your role.

I'm sorry but this is a skill issue. It is a normal dungeon it cannot get any easier, it is also new content you are supposed to die and learn from it.

I wish people in this thread would stop talking about "normal MMO's" and their adjustable difficulty, even in WOW the normal dungeons, heroic dungeons and mythic 0 have some level of challenge there isn't an RP walk mode like some of these "older" gamers want.

I'm sorry but if you cannot play the game to a basic level to the point where a story dungeon is unplayable then maybe this isnt the game for you. They gut and homogenise enough systems and encounters and people still whine.

I think too many of you supposed "casual" players just don't like the idea you might die in a video game. Dying happens, wipes happen and then you try again, thats it. This fight doesn't have anything mechanically we haven't seen a million times before. How did you all deal with things like Barbariccia which as a similar mechanic? You died, you were rezzed or you wiped and you start over and then you win, eventually. You don't have to be any sort of god-gamer to beat this fight, you just need some perseverance. If thats not enough to get you to go again then maybe you really should quit.

Are people really this upset when they die in a video game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Are people really this upset when they die in a video game?

---

yeah a lot of na casuals hate how wiping is even functionally possible. If it takes more than a pull, it's "for sweats." That's how reductive this community can be. Just look at the people crying over a literal dungeon lol

This is crazy besides the fact that its a dungeon and as brain-dead as content can be its also brand new content and if you don't die you don't learn. I swear these people play Mario games with an infinite life hack because they're "too old"

I'm 40 which I assume qualifies me as an older gamer. And if you find your reflexes are too slow, there's things you can do to help keep them sharp. (videogames that test those reflexes are one way!) Someone my age isn't going to be playing competitive FPS games as well as someone in their 20s, but I didn't have any issues getting through stuff like Sekiro, First Berserker Khazan, or Expedition 33, where I needed good reflexes to parry. I didn't have any problems getting through the new dungeon.

If you're finding it too difficult to pick up the mechanics, you can check out a guide on Youtube or do a run with trusts where they'll show you how the mechanics work. From what I saw all the mechanics telegraph what they'll be doing pretty early, so going in with the knowledge of how they work might help you out and help the mechanics feel slower in your head. It's okay to make mistakes and even wipe, it's all part of learning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bryson

yeah a lot of na casuals hate how wiping is even functionally possible. If it takes more than a pull, it's "for sweats." That's how reductive this community can be. Just look at the people crying over a literal dungeon lol

---

Can confirm, am casual, get frustrated when I die

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-16-2023/_A66qO.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Can confirm, am casual, get frustrated when I die

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-16-2023/_A66qO.gif

---

do you try again though? or do you deploy the na "this content is not for me" excuse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bryson

do you try again though? or do you deploy the na "this content is not for me" excuse

---

Depends. If it's Trusts, yea, a bunch. If it's a group with real people, I'll try a couple of times, but if it's just me dying over and over again and causing wipes, I'll probably stop trying because I feel stupid. I don't like messing up gameplay for other people.

i hope the people whose reflexes are apparently too slow for xiv's combat don't drive or anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bibine_Bine

Depends. For casual content shield healing can be harder, because it benefits hugely from fight knowledge and anticipating damage. Regen healers are much better at recovering from mistakes. In a hardcore setting they become way better as you have better coordination and planning for mechanics.

I agree with most of the people in here about the game's difficulty. We don't need an easy mode, that'll just take dev time away from improvements that this game actually desperately needs.

---

The thing is you don’t need to anticipate damage to have raidwides hurt less on a shield healer

“If cast press bubble” already makes everything easier than a regen healer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

It really is that simple and would allow MSQ content to be made more difficult for those who want it. But for a mysterious reason, some who lobby for harder dungeons reject this and other possibilities out of hand. Apparently they would rather drive people from the game.

---

Honestly, it's not a mystery at all. Some people get their sense of superiority from being able to do things others can't. It's just gatekeeping.

I was once young too and thought that I would have a sharp mind that can easily dodge mechanics forever, but sadly, that's apparently not in the cards for me. While I can do this dungeon now, it's not too hard for me to imagine a time when it will be a real challenge. Who does it hurt to add something like the echo buff when you wipe in duty support so that if you are banging your head on the wall you can still get past it?

I want to play FFXIV for as long as I can. It doesn't hurt anyone to make it more accessible be providing more variable difficulty in single player modes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aidorouge

This only works when there's other people who are willing to tolerate you failing repeatedly, and such people are unsurprisingly rare in Final Fantasy 14 given the attitudes that prevail here, on social media, and in-game towards anyone who dies on "sooo easy" content, to say nothing of the hair-trigger accusations and worse that happens in the PF scene even during progs.

Hell, we had people player-killing others in Forked Tower with tank-busters because how dare they use the same entry method they did that Square-Enix themselves implemented. And sure enough Square-Enix buckled and made the entry process easier for premades and hardcore players, while randoms and casuals were told they were literally not worth Yoshi-P's time or money to cater to.

The idea this game has a "welcoming and friendly" community is a myth, especially when it comes towards causal players, and even the game its self became openly hostile towards their presence with Dawntrail. There's no getting up and dusting yourself off to try again when the "favored" part of the playerbase and the developers collectively work together to grind the face of low-skill players into the dirt for over a year, and wouldn't you know it, a lot of those players have been quitting in droves from being "filtered as intended".

---

I've been playing the game for seven years and can count the number of such experiences I've had on one hand, and it takes nothing to just mute and report those players if you run into them. In my first run we wiped to boss one and I was the only one who died several times to boss two. No one complained, they rezzed me we beat the boss and we kept going. Its not a big deal and you all act like its the end of the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JudgeRAW

I've been playing the game for seven years and can count the number of such experiences I've had on one hand, and it takes nothing to just mute and report those players if you run into them. In my first run we wiped to boss one and I was the only one who died several times to boss two. No one complained, they rezzed me we beat the boss and we kept going. Its not a big deal and you all act like its the end of the world.

---

You're lucky then, because I've been playing for almost three years and yet I've rarely encountered anyone that tolerated my failing of mechanics and dying too much, where it finally hit a critical level when I tried to do Ivalice and the nightmare than turned into over the course of almost a dozen attempts because I would keep getting kicked here or there, including during cutscenes.

But then Stormblood in general was a skill-check I barely got through, which is why I'm still staring at the quests to go find the twins in Shadowbringers months later because I honestly don't think I'll be able to beat it, much less reach or complete anything in Dawntrail.

I just did the dungeon for the first time and I'm unsure what the difficult part was actually supposed to be.
It didn't seem harder or easier than most others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Canadane

I just did the dungeon for the first time and I'm unsure what the difficult part was actually supposed to be.
It didn't seem harder or easier than most others.

---

If anything the second boss is subject to tank solos. I did it my first run, second run was an inprog to wait for it... a tank with 3 of them at the same time. Aside from their first one they do no damage to tanks. It's creative at least.

But hey we got those phoenix downs now right.

Dungeon boss was fun and felt original. We need more of this. Stop with this non-sense where everything has to be braindead easy. It's ok to wipe and learn from your mistakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OogaShaka

Thats for the support all, i took your advice and went back to my old legacy data center and asked for help with it went as summoner tho,dying as dps is better then as heals,and altho i died thru that whole 4 boss fight they were nice and just kept rezzing and assisting.Figured i would give an update.

---

Congrats on the clear :)

Always remember that people will help if asked!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

i hope the people whose reflexes are apparently too slow for xiv's combat don't drive or anything.

---

Lest this keeps you awake at night, I can confirm I no longer drive. But keep twisting the knife!

On a side topic, I'm amazed at the passion some of you have for dungeons given the combination of fast-paced DDR with a slow server tick, chronic snapshotting, and a 2.5s GCD is one of the dumbest combat design choices I've ever encountered.

Players have come here to express their struggles with the game. They are shot down by people whom they have never met telling them what they are capable of. Invalidating the experience shared by others is mean arrogance.

If the requests by some of us for an easier MSQ mode would have any impact whatsoever on those who prefer more of a challenge, I would understand the barbs being thrown. But that is not the case!

One simple solution among many is to allow Duty Support NPCs to rez players. Problem completely solved.

Worried this would be a fast-track to get loot? Fine, make this a no-loot mode.

Worried you will have to carry players "who never learned how to clear braindead content"? Don't be. We're not attempting any harder content and DS is being added to all normal content.

If an option to make MSQ content easier for those who desire it is not added, player numbers will continue to fall. How do you suppose SE will respond? More $40 glam outfits in the store? More apologies for the lack of content because of "costs"? Putting the game in genuine maintenance mode?

If one of the "git gud, braindead content, skill issue, you just suck" crowd can explain to me how they will be negatively impacted by a DS rez option, I would really like to hear it. Because in the absence of such an explanation... Hmmm. I'd get banned if I completed that thought and I currently have forum permissions for another 18 days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Ladies and germs, I present to you a shining example of the wonderful FFXIV community!

---

Pretty much.

It's wild what a day can do to a thread. Started out innocent, OP was having trouble with content and venting, people offered to help OP clear the content. Sure, there was the occasional jab, but most were here to help. OP later cleared, and people congratulated them. You know, good community stuff. And that should have been it.

Then, it's like the ******** just took over. I've seen more toxicity in this one thread than in-game over the course of 15 years. Plus someone made this additional thread just to clown on OP for struggling. Just nonsense.

This is kind of a weird thread. If you look at the tells for the aoes, they aren't any quicker than any other standard telegraph. I always wonder if these people are looking at the bright orange telegraphs that show up for a fraction of a second, not being able to react to that, and blaming it on old age... rather than looking at the correct telegraph which would be the blades, spiked balls, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilford111

This is kind of a weird thread. If you look at the tells for the aoes, they aren't any quicker than any other standard telegraph. I always wonder if these people are looking at the bright orange telegraphs that show up for a fraction of a second, not being able to react to that, and blaming it on old age... rather than looking at the correct telegraph which would be the blades, spiked balls, etc.

---

I'm getting the tells off the objects. I find it difficult to see them when they first drop because of the mess the boss is producing. Consequently I accumulate too many vuln stacks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Then you practise. Simple

---

15 wipes was enough practice, thank you.

I realize doing the same repetitive task over and over is normal for those of you prog EX+. For many of us who don't, it is simply frustrating and boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanzz96

Then play animal crossing. This is an MMO with combat and gameplay, there shouldn't need to be a brain dead "I win" mode

---

There is no "winning" in an MMO. You engage with the world. You're thinking of single-player games that must be "beaten."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm getting the tells off the objects. I find it difficult to see them when they first drop because of the mess the boss is producing. Consequently I accumulate too many vuln stacks.

---

Then you practise. Simple

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

second boss is really bad when the add having high amount of HP that makes killing it fast as possible as dancer pure nightmare and i died on second boss like 4 times by boss normal attacks when like 99% of time i didn't get healed by healer at all and last boss have few really annoying mechanics that is quite hard to see due to camera max zoom being simply too short to see enough the arena and the boss it self.

---

It's not any higher than normal, if your own damage is low that would be the reason it'd take longer as it's only your damage until others kick in with their boss dead. This also sounds like your party was both new and didn't care to top you up, which is to be expected on first day and not the mark of "bad dungeon".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

While i don't mind dungeons have some challenge on them but making bosses doing multiple really fast AoE attacks in seconds with lots of visual clutter like they did with almost every dugneon bosses in Dawntrail is by far worst way to make content more challenging.

---

Except it's not, they have other tells other than the orange circles, looking around the arena itself for other tells is necessary. Eg. the last boss uses people running around to dictate AOEs such as where lines will cleave through or the size of AOE circles based on how many goldy boys are hit. This is at level 100, the combat does get more difficult but this is nothing revolutionary, it's standard in basic content, even fates (very casual content) as the player to look if an enemy is using their tail or claws for example to get out of dodge.