So Drks getting rekt 3 expacs in a row great job devs

DRK is in such a bad state that its Megathread is at 400+ pages by now lol

I was a Tank for yeeeeears now and i had enough of this personaly i gonna stop tanking next expansion im waiting for meaningfull changes for DRK so many years now and all we are getting is a Middle finger.
I just gonna Join the DPS Mongoloid Viper train with the others.

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

DRK is in such a bad state that its Megathread is at 400+ pages by now lol

I was a Tank for yeeeeears now and i had enough of this personaly i gonna stop tanking next expansion im waiting for meaningfull changes for DRK so many years now and all we are getting is a Middle finger.
I just gonna Join the DPS Mongoloid Viper train with the others.

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They want you to play Warrior. That's the only tank that matters to the developers.
I'm quiting tank too in DT. If only Warrior matters, let Warriors sort out the queue times.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They want you to play Warrior. That's the only tank that matters to the developers.
I'm quiting tank too in DT. If only Warrior matters, let Warriors sort out the queue times.

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WAR is too simple, my brain turns off and I screw up mechanics. One of the reasons why I had to switch to PLD once it got reworked. I'll wait for the media tour results, but if I tank main again it's gotta be one of the other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

WAR is too simple, my brain turns off and I screw up mechanics. One of the reasons why I had to switch to PLD once it got reworked. I'll wait for the media tour results, but if I tank main again it's gotta be one of the other jobs.

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Paladin getting reworked made it almost as boring as Warrior. I guess anything is better then how low the bar of warrior gameplay is but PLD in it's current state is the reason why I quit being a tank main and played DPS, No point in tanking if it's really bad slow Melee dps with very simple rotations. Without much unique gameplay quirks to offer.

No surprise how DRK's getting far worse after the PLD changes, because if any tank has any slight difference in gameplay (like higher apm) it's got to be equalised, While I wasn't a fan of DRK it's high APM kept it at a little more interesting.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They want you to play Warrior. That's the only tank that matters to the developers.
I'm quiting tank too in DT. If only Warrior matters, let Warriors sort out the queue times.

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My feelings exactly.
Its either go Warrior and feel like a god and have extremely easy and fast runs or go F yourself as a Tank when it comes to 90% of the Farm content in the game.
Warrior is so damn broken it created its own meta farm comp with 1 War and 3 Dps totally removing Healers lol

They either needs to tone down Warriors so other Tanks Don't feel crap to play or play with in your team on most of the content.
Or they need to seriously change all the other tanks to worth playing them and bringing them to most of the content.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Paladin getting reworked made it almost as boring as Warrior. I guess anything is better then how low the bar of warrior gameplay is but PLD in it's current state is the reason why I quit being a tank main and played DPS, No point in tanking if it's really bad slow Melee dps with very simple rotations. Without much unique gameplay quirks to offer.

No surprise how DRK's getting far worse after the PLD changes, because if any tank has any slight difference in gameplay (like higher apm) it's got to be equalised, While I wasn't a fan of DRK it's high APM kept it at a little more interesting.

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GNB is my favorite tank (picked it up once they destroyed DRK in ShB) but my cotank was already playing it, so I didn't have much choice. Just give me HW or StB DRK back...

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Originally Posted by Emitans

GNB is my favorite tank (picked it up once they destroyed DRK in ShB) but my cotank was already playing it, so I didn't have much choice. Just give me HW or StB DRK back...

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This, I've already switched over to gunbreaker having way more fun playing. But honestly I hope alot of us do drop playing tanks (Outside of Drk, Dragoon was my other favourite FF class, probably will switch to that, although not looking forward to how much they are gonna suck after the rework) Then when the queue time is so egregious the devs will maybe have to actually do something, like fix their trash tank design.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Then when the queue time is so egregious the devs will maybe have to actually do something, like fix their trash tank design.

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Which will most likely be their usual approach to the support roles, doubling down, making them even more failure proof and braindead to play, because that's what they've already been doing to increase player numbers for tanks and healers since Shadowbringer.

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Originally Posted by Zordrage

DRK is in such a bad state that its Megathread is at 400+ pages by now lol

I was a Tank for yeeeeears now and i had enough of this personaly i gonna stop tanking next expansion im waiting for meaningfull changes for DRK so many years now and all we are getting is a Middle finger.
I just gonna Join the DPS Mongoloid Viper train with the others.

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Don't worry, changes will happen when the page count of the megathread exceeds our maximum item level. :D

I disagree with most of this, and feel like most people do. You don't speak for the community.
Living Shadow is a great lore ability, though it is basically a dot.
Delirium is fine, I preferred it when you got 5 but oh well.
If you are only pressing 3 buttons for 10m you are playing wrong.


Hate to be that guy but....

If you want to be more engaged, then why not try more engaging content. It is easy and not engaging to do rotations when the hardest content you do is Alliance.



EDIT:

I have just seen how you described the rotation in later posts and you aren't even doing it correctly.
Please do no post on threads complaining about DRK being not engaging when you don't play it correctly and only do casual content.

People like you are the reason I am glad SE does not take into account forum feedback.

The thing I don't get is that all of the changes basically align with shit I read on these very forums two years ago.

Bloodspiller spam is gone, thats what made people compare it to WAR. If using 3 things after a buff in a burst window makes it a WAR clone then GNB and PLD are also wars and your inner release is replaced with No Mercy/Fight or Flight.
This is the first expansion in a long time DRK has not recieved a new oGCD, and instead it got 4 new GCDs.
Infact the ammount of weaving has gone down, which was also complained about a lot in early endwalker, BW Delrium merger and plunge to this new chaos control dash are how they did it.

I'll even go so far to say it would not surprise me if it gets a trait DRK gets, or even the ability of the new Shadowwall directly gives DRK some sort of regen or healing, as that was the last major thing people bitched about early endwalker.

What's the difference between spamming bloodspiller (1 button) and spamming a consolidated 3 step combo ala confiteor (still 1 button)? None in terms of input, it's just visual. But I'll grant you that it's marginally better since you spamm 3 instead of 5 (like warrior has since the last expansion). That's less spamm, so it's already something. I think players are too dumb to be given more inputs to use inside delirium/confiteor/inner release/etc, I guess. We're just apes that can't manage more than one button.

I wish the heat blast spamm was gone on MCH as well tbh. Those types of combo/gameplay are just total brain rot.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

If using 3 things after a buff in a burst window makes it a WAR clone then GNB and PLD are also wars and your inner release is replaced with No Mercy/Fight or Flight.

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I dont think this is incorrect. DRK and GNB at least weave stuff inbetween but its not much of a difference anyway.

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Originally Posted by Valence

What's the difference between spamming bloodspiller (1 button) and spamming a consolidated 3 step combo ala confiteor (still 1 button)? None in terms of input, it's just visual. But I'll grant you that it's marginally better since you spamm 3 instead of 5 (like warrior has since the last expansion). That's less spamm, so it's already something. I think players are too dumb to be given more inputs to use inside delirium/confiteor/inner release/etc, I guess. We're just apes that can't manage more than one button.

I wish the heat blast spamm was gone on MCH as well tbh. Those types of combo/gameplay are just total brain rot.

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Whats the difference of weaving the new combo button with edge of shadow in between and gnashing fang with continuation in between? Its always been functionally pretty similar.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

I dont think this is incorrect. DRK and GNB at least weave stuff inbetween but its not much of a difference anyway.

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This is where I currently stand with it as well, either all the tanks are WAR clones or none of them are.
I will agree that tanks are to homogenized right now, but that isn't a DRK exclusive issue, nor do I even think DRK is the worst off in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Whats the difference of weaving the new combo button with edge of shadow in between and gnashing fang with continuation in between?

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There is fundamentally none

The difference is the 30 second cooldown making Gnashing a downtime filler as well and the fact that GnB needs to build up resources instead of just pressing the "Hurrdurr burst damage"-button, in execution they're identical.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

The thing I don't get is that all of the changes basically align with shit I read on these very forums two years ago.

Bloodspiller spam is gone, thats what made people compare it to WAR. If using 3 things after a buff in a burst window makes it a WAR clone then GNB and PLD are also wars and your inner release is replaced with No Mercy/Fight or Flight.
This is the first expansion in a long time DRK has not recieved a new oGCD, and instead it got 4 new GCDs.
Infact the ammount of weaving has gone down, which was also complained about a lot in early endwalker, BW Delrium merger and plunge to this new chaos control dash are how they did it.

I'll even go so far to say it would not surprise me if it gets a trait DRK gets, or even the ability of the new Shadowwall directly gives DRK some sort of regen or healing, as that was the last major thing people bitched about early endwalker.

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"4 new gcds"
When in reality it's gotten 1, that you press every 120, these different GCD's don't matter if A: You use it once per minute/2minute & its just a CD gcd or B: One that just cycles into another GCD, It's just visually a difference it plays a cool animation it doesn't actually effect gameplay.

This is my issue when I say I want more gcds, I don't mean meaningless buttons or visual gcd's I want it's rotation to be different then 1, 2, 3 + spend gauge & press 120/60 burst buttons, which every tank falls under.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

The thing I don't get is that all of the changes basically align with shit I read on these very forums two years ago.

Bloodspiller spam is gone, thats what made people compare it to WAR. If using 3 things after a buff in a burst window makes it a WAR clone then GNB and PLD are also wars and your inner release is replaced with No Mercy/Fight or Flight.
This is the first expansion in a long time DRK has not recieved a new oGCD, and instead it got 4 new GCDs.
Infact the ammount of weaving has gone down, which was also complained about a lot in early endwalker, BW Delrium merger and plunge to this new chaos control dash are how they did it.

I'll even go so far to say it would not surprise me if it gets a trait DRK gets, or even the ability of the new Shadowwall directly gives DRK some sort of regen or healing, as that was the last major thing people bitched about early endwalker.

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I don't think you got 4 new GCD's, i think you only got 1.
There's no reason to believe it's anything other than a new animation set for your Bloodspiller spam after Delirium.
It's the same as Warrior's infuriate turning Fell cleave into ''not Fell cleave''

At this point I think I’d take literally anything over the incredibly basic rotation DRK has right now. I don’t think it’d even be hard to give it a mildly interesting rotation, you could just shuffle some CDs around at the very least. Iirc DRK has 60% or more of its damage tied up in one 20 second window each minute, so surely it wouldn’t hurt to give it the tiniest crumb of activity outside of burst.

Even something we simple as, say, a 40s Delirium and a standalone DoT or damage GCD with a 30s CD (hell, make Carve and Spit 30s or decouple Abyssal Drain and make it 30s). That would make it so you do your opener, 123 for a little bit, fire off your 30s thing, Delirium combo, 123 for a little bit and fire off your 60s and 30s CDs, Delirium combo, 30s thing, 123 for a little bit, and voila you’re back to 2 minute burst. Just the most basic barebones cooldown management, like not drifting anything that goes into 2m, or knowing when you should use or hold your DoT because the boss is about to be untargetable. I could care less about damage, nerf the bloodspiller potencies, I don’t care, just let me do something.

At level 100, I shouldn’t be staring at the same 3 attacks for something like 80s every 2 minutes, with 3-4 bloodspillers thrown in just to keep from overcapping. Beyond being unfun, it runs antithetical to this push from Square for aesthetically pleasing and flashy rotations over all else. I enjoy the super powerful burst and tiny bits of damage optimization you can squeeze out, but DRK’s downtime at level 90 is one of the most boring jobs in the game short of a healer with no one to heal. 123 of the same floaty, generic looking attack animations over and over. At least give us Power Slash or old Delirium back or something.

Making DRK the tank with a 40s action cycle could actually serve as a form of identity among the other tanks, since it wouldn’t be losing much damage except potentially its 60s personal burst under Mug (which it didn’t benefit much from anyways because DRK’s odd minute burst is anemic).

My stance hasn't really changed. I still think that DRK should be spending its own HP on attacks like it does in PVP which would require extensive changes to address survivability, and so that it can still function as a tank. Another DRK change I would like to see is that Plunge be put on the GCD, and have its potency, animation, and sound design beefed up while still retaining its its movement capabilities, and have it be an upgrade to Bloodspiller. I think DRK's attacks should feel slightly unwieldy, and dangerous, and being able to overcome their quirks will lead to a sense of mastery.

Coming from someone who does like what we're getting, what we are getting isn't really changing the gameplay of Dark Knight, it's merely just going to make pressing Delirium and Living Shadow feel fresher because the GCD's are being updated and LS actually gives an ability and isn't "just" a glorified DoT.

You're still going to press Delirium and have 3 GCD's, you're still going to press Living Shadow but now you'll have another ability to press. The only difference is it's going to be easier to weave defensives in while we're bursting since Plunge is a dash and Blood Weapon upgrades to Delirium now.

The job mechanically has not changed or evolved and that is the core issue, and unless Delirium is put on a 30s CD like gnashing fang we're still drooling at the keyboard spamming our normal 1-2-3 for 40 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

"4 new gcds"
When in reality it's gotten 1, that you press every 120, these different GCD's don't matter if A: You use it once per minute/2minute & its just a CD gcd or B: One that just cycles into another GCD, It's just visually a difference it plays a cool animation it doesn't actually effect gameplay.

This is my issue when I say I want more gcds, I don't mean meaningless buttons or visual gcd's I want it's rotation to be different then 1, 2, 3 + spend gauge & press 120/60 burst buttons, which every tank falls under.

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That unfortunately seems to be SE's current design philosophy for tanks in general, all flash and zero substance. Just throw some new flashy visual effects and animations onto the same stale "press button to do big numbers, X seconds cooldown"-skills they've been shoveling into our troughs for the easily impressed to gobble up, partially since Shadowbringers but certainly since Endwalker.

And judging by all the reactions of talking heads on Youtube and Twitch it clearly still works, because they're all acting like more VFX clutter with the bare minimum of actual player input is somehow the best thing since sliced bread.

I dropped DRK when EW didn't give the job any significant changes. Entering DT, I still won't touch the Job. Tool Tips haven't come out yet, but I don't think that alone will convince me to play the Job again (unless a miracle happens).

I played through DRK during the start of ShB and played through it even though the Job wasn't well-designed. I just liked how the Job looked. I realistically started in 4.05 and would've loved to play DRK at the time, but due to real life issues, I had to quit the game. Really wish I played 4.0 DRK. Looked really fun. Wish DT would give us something that gives the Job some "flash" or "flare". Maybe reduce the cooldown of Delirium to 40secs or have Blood Weapon / Delirium gain it's old Haste effect again. It can work, but I doubt SE would do anything about it.

I have a gut feeling DRK will get a rework mid-expansion, but that's just me being too hopeful.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I don't think you got 4 new GCD's, i think you only got 1.
There's no reason to believe it's anything other than a new animation set for your Bloodspiller spam after Delirium.
It's the same as Warrior's infuriate turning Fell cleave into ''not Fell cleave''

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I mean if thats how you want to look at it, yeah.
But the community loves gnashing fang, and 2 years ago one of the biggest complaints EW DRK got for its addition was "even more ogcds", and people were mad that DRK wasnt getting a GCD finisher like Primal Rend. I remember the posts.
So seeing them focus on GCDs just feels like a response to that, and they eliminated the source of it being compared to Fell Cleave spam, at least according to everyone who views Gnashing Fang as anything different.

I just view feedback of this job specifically to be very schizophrenic, and a lot of people are either attached to the aesthetics and just want those aesthetics attached to another tank entirely, or alternatively people aren't willing to admit that Dark Knight does have things and advantages over other tanks in these arguments, or alternatively act like other tanks have these deep and engaging rotations when in reality they're all just sorta 123 spam until its time to do your job specific thing. I'll give you DRK has the biggest gaps between its job specific thing and 123 spam but I don't really view any of them in particularly good spots.

Like I've seen people say things like "Tanks shouldn't be so homogenized" and "TBN should be free and on a 25s timer" in the same sentence, so I can't say I'm surprised the devs barely listen to feedback on this.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Like I've seen people say things like "Tanks shouldn't be so homogenized" and "TBN should be free and on a 25s timer" in the same sentence, so I can't say I'm surprised the devs barely listen to feedback on this.

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I think that's because the first is about gameplay, while the latter is about balancing. Look at Sentinel, Vengeance, Shadow Wall, and Nebula. They are perfectly the same abilities, including to all of them beeing learned at lv 38, aside from Vengeance having this tiny 55 potency retaliatory damage cherry on top because of...WAR I guess. Removing those 55 potency from Vengeance would not count as further homogenizing tanks imo, because they effectiveley already are the same abilities. But it would balance them.

Generally, I wouldn't say I'm disappointed in DT DRK (didn't expect much anyway), it's just sad in which state Tanks are, while melees clearly show that minor design differences can make huge impact on job identity.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Like I've seen people say things like "Tanks shouldn't be so homogenized" and "TBN should be free and on a 25s timer" in the same sentence, so I can't say I'm surprised the devs barely listen to feedback on this.

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Whats funny is, the people most vocal about homogenisation were crying the loudest when any tank did something better than War.
It's genuinely hillarious to see people cry about Gnb's damage being slightly ahead of Warrior still, or Paladin somehow being more tanky than Warrior.
Some people going as far as to insist that War needs more mitigation because Xenos Christ said so.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Whats funny is, the people most vocal about homogenisation were crying the loudest when any tank did something better than War.

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I don't think so to be honest. I think Paladin rework made Paladins the people who were vocal about homogenisation then Dark knight players.
What I think you need to remember is to separate warrior players from warrior mains, lots of people play warrior because it's easy and op so making it more difficult takes away why they play it while warrior mains care more about the class design of tanks becoming gutted.

Edit: it didn't register that i was replying to the guy who said to stop talking about it on the forums bc Devs don't read, and to switch jobs. That was my intention!

At this point why talk about anything here then.

Like, yea they don't read our forums but seriously it hurts seeing a job you love and play the game for get less and less exciting as dlcs go on. I don't see how i would enjoy this drk more than EW drk, and with no tooltips idk what they want me to think when they show me the trailer, making it clear this job is easier than it already was as the easiest tank and pretty much the same as ew which si the same as SHB. Look man you can play all jobs in this game etc etc, but we all have our mains truly, and if the main i play the game for just stops being fun, then ig the game stops being fun to me and im out.

Nice to see they are functionally giving Paladin a TBN move. Remember in Shb when we were told we don't get good self sustain as we're the only ones with TBN and do the most damage. Then from every patch onwards they increased all other tanks dps to be practically the same as ours and gave them all a TBN move, meanwhile we aint got jack.

Remember when an War solo'd the first raid of endwalker day 1......

Im after the tooltips media tour, im moving onto Gunbreaker. Good luck bros and hope you'll have fun in DT.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Genuinely wonder if I can get a refund on my expac purchase. I'm tired of them destroying the class expac after expac, we've had a megathread about Drks being terrible and un fun for over 2 years now and the dev's have listened to precisely none of the feedback.
To sum it up

The community for the past 4 years:
WE HATE LIVING SHADOW is a crap mechanic that doesn't fit the class and is un fun.
We hate delirium spam that basically makes us a less fun warrior.
We have no self sustain for doing levelling content.
Pressing 3 buttons repeatedly for 10m is NOT ENGAGING,

Dev's response:
Best we can do, give you another button attached to living shadow, remove you blood weapon mechanic and give you 1 button to press for 10m.

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"WE HATE LIVING SHADOW"
who is "we"m living shadow mmakees a lot of sense for how the role quests went, thats the part of your yapping that makees no sense to me

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

"WE HATE LIVING SHADOW"
who is "we"m living shadow mmakees a lot of sense for how the role quests went, thats the part of your yapping that makees no sense to me

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So you really like your class identity being a 2m dot that spawns an NPC that does stuff. Cool.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

"WE HATE LIVING SHADOW"
who is "we"m living shadow mmakees a lot of sense for how the role quests went, thats the part of your yapping that makees no sense to me

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He's right though, Living Shadow sucks.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

who is "we"

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slowly raises hand

Cool idea, thematically awesome, very, very dull implementation. I'd rather go back to playing tennis with my MP and blood gauge than use a fire and forget ability for as much potency as it is. If only all that damage could be baked back into the kit in a more interesting playstyle, ya know?

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

"WE HATE LIVING SHADOW"
who is "we"m living shadow mmakees a lot of sense for how the role quests went, thats the part of your yapping that makees no sense to me

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I do.
It's a glorified DoT we press once every 2 minutes.
It just LOOKS cool and you like it because of the job quests.
But the implementation of the ability is dog shit and should be improved upon.

I dont want it removed but it could be way more interactive than it currently is.
I think an easy way to make it cool is if say you used it as a 20s buff and he just sorta acted as an after image, and it doubled your damage and resource generation of any skill you did.
I think its lame they keep overwriting it with skills as a way to update it for expansions, and I'm tired of seeing "Enhanced Living Shadow" traits in general.

Literally the first time I've seen someone like Living DoT

Weren’t the job quests basically just the king and his horse deal from bleach? I don’t really get how the walking dot thematically works here.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

"WE HATE LIVING SHADOW"
who is "we"m living shadow mmakees a lot of sense for how the role quests went, thats the part of your yapping that makees no sense to me

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Hi, I've been among the first against Living Shadow and Automaton Queen! I've quit MCH because they doubled down on the Automaton Queen.
I don't like having so much potency behind an AI that can screw up.

They can't effectively switch targets and lose a lot of damage in the process, this is especially annoying in Eureka Orthors where they keep beating a dead add about to explode.
Bonus point for the Automaton Queen who just gives up and do not execute Pile Bunker/Crown collider if its current target died.
Their "process and forget" design makes them change nothing at all, they could be invisible and making no sounds, they'd be the same. AQ&LS got new actions but they effectively remains the exact same as before.

We're not against the visual aspect or the summoning of the shadow, but the execution of the idea.
The person who designed those ability should be forced to what a game playing itself and doing annoying mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

Literally the first time I've seen someone like Living DoT

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It's a poor man's Scourge.