7.0 BLM Changes will kill the job

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

I will never understand how people don't get this: once we have the tooltips, we already KNOW how the jobs will play. What new information do you think will be gleaned from playing the job vs. having all the info from the media tour?

"Oh, I had predicted that choosing between dropping flare star or losing enochian because I had to cancel a fire IV cast to move out of an AoE, and the tools I would normally use to recover are removed, would feel terrible but it actually feels great now that I'm the one pressing W!"

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I see it like how when I first tried out Savage Raids that when watching the tutorials and reading everything up I was like "this is impossible. I'm never gonna learn everything."
but lo and behold, I did after actually trying it out myself.
Sometimes one has to actually try something out and not just read before getting the clear picture on how something actually plays out.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I see it like how when I first tried out Savage Raids that when watching the tutorials and reading everything up I was like "this is impossible. I'm never gonna learn everything."
but lo and behold, I did after actually trying it out myself.
Sometimes one has to actually try something out and not just read before getting the clear picture on how something actually plays out.

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the problem with your statement is that there is a massive difference between not being able to understand an entire savage raid from a tutorial and being able to read a tooltip, it's a very flawed comparison

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Originally Posted by Doublejho

the problem with your statement is that there is a massive difference between not being able to understand an entire savage raid from a tutorial and being able to read a tooltip, it's a very flawed comparison

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still, something might feel better to play than one might've initially thought by just reading/watching something.
People are too quick to judge before giving things a fair chance.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Is it a hot take to suggest people should wait until they actually play the job(s) before passing judgement? Don't get me wrong, I expect the conversation to get even more heated up after release, but it's just weird to see judgements being passed by from only previews and 3rd party reports.

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>Just wait until skill showcase, it's not going to be that bad

>Just wait until live letter explanation, it's not going to be that bad

>Just wait until tooltips release, it's not going to be that bad

>Just wait until early access, it's not going to be that bad [YOU ARE HERE]

>Just wait until savage balance patch, it's not going to be that bad

>Just wait until next expansion's skill showcase, it's surely going to be better

>Repeat from start

Dang all this explosive hype/derision on BLM makes me want to move one of my BLMs to one of the new Dynamis servers when they open and actually play her!

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

still, something might feel better to play than one might've initially thought by just reading/watching something.
People are too quick to judge before giving things a fair chance.

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what'll feel better to play? we can't make a comparison anymore because they've surgically removed the old way it was played, they're now forcing a clunkier rotation on the class's entire population that reduces mobility, expression and fun factor that'll also be more awkward for both inexperienced BLMs and BLMs levelling their class, as well as BLMs in ultimate raiding.
this isn't some new experience, this is literally just what the class can currently do with mechanics subtracted and railroaded, the only additions are restrictions

your flippant "omg just give it a chance" mindset is completely off-the-mark in this specific scenario, we're actively losing out on mechanics here, there's no new things to explore

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Originally Posted by Print_Screen

I think that killing job optimization isn't an unforeseen side effect of any of the job changes, it's a goal. Monks choosing their next weaponskill based on buff timers? Remove timers and make the intended path the only path. Samurais using meikyo to sync the timing of their iaiutsus to raid buffs? Make meikyo automatically prepare tsubame. SE wants the skill ceiling as close to the skill floor as they can get it.

Its been like this since Stormblood. Every new expansion is a chance for them to change course. It wasn't this one.

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If I remember correctly, one of the reasons they made so many changes in Shadowbringers was because they felt there was too big of a discrepancy between top and bottom players. I don't see how that is an issue though. Especially when so many players refuse to even try to play their jobs above a subpar level. They already removed some of the systems that became an issue due to this, so them continuing down this path is incredibly dumb. I've pretty much given up finding jobs that I really like, because every time I find one I enjoy, they change it.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

I will never understand how people don't get this: once we have the tooltips, we already KNOW how the jobs will play. What new information do you think will be gleaned from playing the job vs. having all the info from the media tour?

"Oh, I had predicted that choosing between dropping flare star or losing enochian because I had to cancel a fire IV cast to move out of an AoE, and the tools I would normally use to recover are removed, would feel terrible but it actually feels great now that I'm the one pressing W!"

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Be aware that when talking to an FF14 player, you may be talking to someone who cannot piece together simple math in their brain by themselves.

I think the job will survive, it had a niche playerbase. Maybe the people in the niche will change but it will still have plenty people who enjoy it. I look forward too the changes. Some things too improve such as getting umbral soul at lower level but really on the whole I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by Doublejho

what'll feel better to play? we can't make a comparison anymore because they've surgically removed the old way it was played, they're now forcing a clunkier rotation on the class's entire population that reduces mobility, expression and fun factor that'll also be more awkward for both inexperienced BLMs and BLMs levelling their class, as well as BLMs in ultimate raiding.
this isn't some new experience, this is literally just what the class can currently do with mechanics subtracted and railroaded, the only additions are restrictions

your flippant "omg just give it a chance" mindset is completely off-the-mark in this specific scenario, we're actively losing out on mechanics here, there's no new things to explore

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see this is the fualty part,
the "old way it was played" ios still primarily 90% the same for a majority of people in a majority of situations, youre talking about the non standard transpose server tick gimmick being removed,

and, by virtue of wording, "non standard" inheretly means not standard, most people wont notice a change

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Which rotation a player happens to use more isn't the factor to look at. What's important here is if a player wants to look for opportunities to optimizes dynamically instead of performing the same static rotation for the entire fight. Non standard lines are a boon for standard rotation users as long as they find adjusting on the fly interesting. If we're going to be forced to go through our full rotation in every situation we've lost decision making and the chance to be creative, and is boring. It's boring for experienced BLM's that might be using non standard regularly and it's boring for beginner BLM's that use non standard once in every dozen fights. People aren't defending the unintended rotations for the sake of numbers, or at least I don't see why they would. They're defending it because it genuinely makes BLM less about mindless repetition and memorization. Those things are heavily ingrained into FF14's combat design and it's terrible for gameplay longevity.

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Because the concept of "server ticks" is an esoteric concept that is not explained in game, and can change player to player depending on their relationship with the server in regards to ping, packets, etc , and not inheretly intuitive.

Could be worse. BLM could of gotten the Dark Knight treatment. Where it was entirely gutted, pruned and retooled and gave all it's toys to Warrior and PLD and tries to be both and fails at it.

Or SMN with it's rework and now has no setup and is all style and no substance. Makes for a good chill job requiring no brain.

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Originally Posted by AnimalsALot

Be aware that when talking to an FF14 player, you may be talking to someone who cannot piece together simple math in their brain by themselves.

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You know. you might as well better off became Nijisanji's Nijisister go out and harrass Vtuber and their fans you don't like.

Or better, make fun of Nijisanji's Nijisister if you want to.

Trust me you can get overdose of enjoyment through your rage-baiting at there.

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Originally Posted by Zadood

You know. you might as well better off became Nijisanji's Nijisister go out and harrass Vtuber and their fans you don't like.

Or better, make fun of Nijisanji's Nijisister if you want to.

Trust me you can get overdose of enjoyment through your rage-baiting at there.

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Is it rage-baiting to speak the truth?

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Originally Posted by Doublejho

your flippant "omg just give it a chance" mindset is completely off-the-mark in this specific scenario, we're actively losing out on mechanics here, there's no new things to explore

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Do you care about a random player's validation or are you posting for Square Enix to actually take your feedback in consideration?

If that's the former, then you're just here to argue. Which won't achieve anything and you know it.
If that's the later, then you also already know that SE won't rework the job for the end of the month because the forums had a few angry people.

Pre-release doomsaying is mostly pointless.
Having post-release constructive criticism based on actual gameplay is way more impactful.

But regardless, there have been quite a few examples though the years of people coming to the forums, going full on doomsay, and then the jobs becomes actually way more popular than before without SE doing anything.
There isn't much reasons for SE to act right now (they can't anyway).

I will vote with my money, not pre ordering dawntrail. Unsubbing as well.
Don't enjoy the new blm.
EW blm was perfect.
I would be okay with a little bit finetuning of potency. Maybe after despair if they wanted us to cast a new spell with the new gauge, then have a potency diminishing return.
For example 3 fIV casts min. 600 pot
4 fiv casts 650 pot
5 f1V casts 675 pot
6 fiv casts 700 pot

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Is it rage-baiting to speak the truth?

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Gaslighting the playerbases for making everyone thinking it is their fault for causing the current state of FFXIV.

If anything, he either is a rage-baiter, or he is someone just as bad and manipulative as Yoshida-san himself. Which means he is just as bad as the Yoshida-san who he make fun and criticized of.

Consider Yoshida-san himself did employ the same manipulative trick to use against the playerbase in general and gaslighted the playerbase for not able to "come together" when asked for do something about 2 min meta.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

see this is the fualty part,
the "old way it was played" ios still primarily 90% the same for a majority of people in a majority of situations, youre talking about the non standard transpose server tick gimmick being removed,

and, by virtue of wording, "non standard" inheretly means not standard, most people wont notice a change



Because the concept of "server ticks" is an esoteric concept that is not explained in game, and can change player to player depending on their relationship with the server in regards to ping, packets, etc , and not inheretly intuitive.

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except people ARE going to notice a change because the changes aren't just related to server ticks and will make the class even less forgiving for less-advanced players, your rudimentary understand of nonstandard doesn't give you the authority to say what will and will not make a change

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Do you care about a random player's validation or are you posting for Square Enix to actually take your feedback in consideration?

If that's the former, then you're just here to argue. Which won't achieve anything and you know it.
If that's the later, then you also already know that SE won't rework the job for the end of the month because the forums had a few angry people.

Pre-release doomsaying is mostly pointless.
Having post-release constructive criticism based on actual gameplay is way more impactful.

But regardless, there have been quite a few examples though the years of people coming to the forums, going full on doomsay, and then the jobs becomes actually way more popular than before without SE doing anything.
There isn't much reasons for SE to act right now (they can't anyway).

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what constructive criticism is there to offer? i'd love to offer alternative ideas, but none of the current ideas are well-thought-out and are purely a borderline-malicious assassination of nonstandard at the cost of any flexibility the class may have, the only criticism i could offer would be that these changes don't go through - except maybe movable ley lines, if only because it achieves so little that it's as inoffensive as the changes to most of the rest of the classes.
BLM won't become popular because of these changes, it'll remain unpopular for the same reason it's always been - because it's an awkward, acquired taste that turns away far more players than it retains

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Originally Posted by Doublejho

100% agreed to both responses ~Snipped Quotes~

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There are many people who, without any proper examples or understanding of the job, are just jumping in to say their piece.
(Ranging from effective random to well known players in the community)

Sadly most of their reactions seemed skewed, it's like they just fall into the concept that BLM some how sucks with how it currently.
It's like when you say something so much and it gets parroted ad nauseum, that people take it as true. Or they naturally get told or believe a few examples of bad natured BLMs is a representation of all of them. That they feel "good" when they "suffer". (if some of you read this as saying all that disagree, that the changes aren't good for BLM in the long term unless they plan to expand or revert somethings. you're Misunderstanding the Point)

They come in here unironically wanting the job to change what it is, when doing so would be like getting constant reworks like monk.(But what do we have here: It says Monk always gets a specific community interested in it, and doesn't expand much in its usage over time. It only Retains their DieHard Players. or Gets usage in PVP Cause of its Hard Utilities.)

The only ones that will end up playing BLM are those who already have been for awhile.

Those who got only a Granular or basic understanding of it may end up getting accidentally filtered cause of the changes.

(If being charitable. They Broke the BLMs Bones and Structures to see how we could potentially grow and evolve. but as we know the Random Heal Tick will only Really Procc after the entire .X Series is completed)

Players will still experience the "Slowest.., Leveling.., Experience.., EVER" and then Say "Suck It BLM" regardless. (Except Unironically, Unlike I do against Summoner.<from the pint 10k hr> FULL of irony, cause I know some of them aren't as enthused about their changes, but they can always wait and see their additions. rather see what has been gutted from them.)

Most<aka those who don't play> will just play the other jobs while they came to chime in their "IOU Gil Notes".
Rather than most BLM who know they will try it, and either adjust or head out til their leylines can flex harder than a Manderville.

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Originally Posted by Zadood

Gaslighting the playerbases for making everyone thinking it is their fault for causing the current state of FFXIV.

If anything, he either is a rage-baiter, or he is someone just as bad and manipulative as Yoshida-san himself. Which means he is just as bad as the Yoshida-san who he make fun and criticized of.

Consider Yoshida-san himself did employ the same manipulative trick to use against the playerbase in general and gaslighted the playerbase for not able to "come together" when asked for do something about 2 min meta.

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The current state of FF14 is in large part due to the playerbase though. The average player in FF14 is, shall we say, as human as ChatGPT2, and as mentally sophisticated as a decent fourth-grader.

Atleast ff14 should have one job that is satisfying to play and do it's rotation.
And now there would be none. Everything is done for you.
You do just standard lines.
Fire /thunder prox all is decided for you.

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

Because the concept of "server ticks" is an esoteric concept that is not explained in game, and can change player to player depending on their relationship with the server in regards to ping, packets, etc , and not inheretly intuitive.

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If a player is using the standard rotation, server ticks were already solved. Blizzard IV is free, Xeno is free, Thunder procs are free, Paradox is free. A change to the MP system, with all the potential consequences that trickle down to BLM leveling, wasn't needed to solve ticks. That had been addressed long ago.

I see that a lot of people on this thread are under the impression that these changes only impact nonstandard rotation and that the standard rotation is mostly the same, but that isn’t true. Nonstandard is gone, but standard is *worse*. It is more punishing and less flexible. I would recommend everyone watch Eksu Plosion’s video on the subject if you want to know more. These changes are bad for casuals and optimizers alike.

Yoship once said to a certain game. "Do these developers even play their own games".
I'd like to ask them the same question

The only thing I am scratching my head about is why umbral soul is not level one.

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Originally Posted by sdr26

The only thing I am scratching my head about is why umbral soul is not level one.

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At this point it has to be... and I raise the stake, at this point Scathe should not cost MP anymore. The moment you use it once, even in Umbral Ice, you have to recast a Blizzard spell or you wont get enough MP to do a full fire phase.

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Originally Posted by kidknee

Yoship once said to a certain game. "Do these developers even play their own games".
I'd like to ask them the same question

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I'm sure he used to.

Though I can't say the same after he got promoted. IIRC they're working on 2 new IPs right now

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Originally Posted by Daralii

You will adhere to the two minute window and you will be happy.

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You are literally rage baiting which is so inappropriate to begin with. How do you expect people to have a meaningful conversation with an attitude like that?