Pictomancer is absurd

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

you are wol
i am wol
we are all wol
meteor/hiroshi/derplander is our generalised standin.
throw all the players in pot, stir very hard and make smooth paste out of us. that's him

- but surely not negligible slice of us want to play casters? ruin your dungeon run by dressing up as piggy/tonberry/fat chocobo, spam /paintyellow?
...

then there is marketing.
their analysis and diagramns and research perpetuates the idea that to SELL
our standin must be melee/tank appearing fella. which is just smooth pastefied version of us.
we are all wol.
but none of us is really made of general paste only.

dont. play. pictomancer. if. it. hurts. so. much.

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You were making some solid points in your post until the final sentence came across as a bit passive-aggressive. It's important to remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions, and the forums are a place to express them openly. Additionally, it's worth acknowledging that even those who aren't fans of Pictomancer might still play it due to its integration into the game, complete with achievements and rewards. So, discussing ways to improve the experience for everyone is more constructive than dismissing differing opinions with a "don't like it, don't play it" attitude.

If people like it, they like it. It's like when I explain why I don't like Dancer and people get all up in arms, and that's before I get to the goofy animations.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

You were making some solid points in your post until the final sentence came across as a bit passive-aggressive. It's important to remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions, and the forums are a place to express them openly. Additionally, it's worth acknowledging that even those who aren't fans of Pictomancer might still play it due to its integration into the game, complete with achievements and rewards. So, discussing ways to improve the experience for everyone is more constructive than dismissing differing opinions with a "don't like it, don't play it" attitude.

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I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't voice your opinions. What people are saying is that if the job aesthetic isn't for you then don't play it. I don't think that's very hard to understand or do. You can say it's ugly, garbage or whatever, and people are allowed to say the opposite. However, what I am seeing is a lot of people that dislike the job are arguing that pictomancer is somehow a flaw in game design or a stain on the game's image. How is ONE job affecting YOUR experience? Saying "don't like it, don't play it" isn't dismissive, it's a valid solution to your problem. This goes for everyone and not just you. There are jobs in this game that I will not play because I just do not care for them. I really don't like the aesthetic choices for reaper, samurai, or dark knight for example, and I am free to express those opinions, but what I am not gonna do is claim that these jobs "don't fit" in FFXIV. Like, what makes the job or theme of pictomancer, "less" FFXIV than the other jobs?

Personally, I think it's mighty self-righteous for some players to dictate what is or not aesthetically acceptable in MMO that's heavy in the RPG.

I have never heard of an instance where the developers have changed a job in a stylistic sense meaningfully based on player feedback.

So it's definitely a don't like it, don't play it scenario. I mean to be clear it's not like that means the situation can't be changed tomorrow, it's just that 10+ years of data and yeaaah, I am going to assume these animations are set it stone.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

After the shirt reveal at fan fest there were several threads about speculating on the job and people were talking about green mage, geomancer, and pictomancer.

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That's wonderful. In a previous post I stated that the rise in pictomancer discussion is recent, i.e. as a result of the Yoshi's shirt hinting at the job and the job reveal itself a little later. Those discussions, be they positive or negative, would fall under that umbrella. Am I not being clear when it comes to the timeline involving these discussions?

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And a whole thread from 6 years ago:

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Wow... six years ago. Bravo. No, seriously you have my commendation for digging this up. I asked you to provide a receipt and you most certainly did that. You're someone I would want on my side if I ever go through a tax audit. Unfortunately, you're still missing the point. You even admitted it yourself that we're basically stuck with this job design choice from the dev team. That you would choose something different if given that choice, and that is my point. I am really not sure what it is exactly you take issue with. Is it the fact that some people, myself included simply do not like this job? I'm quite sure many players will think, "Well, you don't have to play it then." And they're right. I don't have to play it, and I don't have to like it either.

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I don't even know where to start with this or what "NPC mindset" is supposed to mean.

I don't know what else to tell you other that "cartoony" stuff has already entered the game. You can get turned into water imps, frogs, green chicken, or even paint the floor in a raid like was brought up above. You can go to a casino that is in the shape of a giant cactuar covered in domes, filled with bunny girls, and hop in a tiny plane to shoot cartoony balloons. You can summon a cartoony rabbit on your head if you mess up mudras or summon a bright neon glowing cat-rabbit thing that does gem magic. While none of them had cartoony effects as core to their content and this is certainly an escalation, it's at least not alone.

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So what? Whoever I said I'm in favor of that crap as well? You need to understand that this isn't an argument. If I directly ask you why you feel Pictomancer is good choice to bring into the game, and your response is, "We already have silly stuff in the game." You are admitting the choice is silly. You have already made valid and strong statements why Pictomancer can work in FFXIV, and you did it without resorting to the nonsensical word salad in this quote.

It's fine to have fun, cute, and cartoony stuff in the game. That within itself I do not take issue with. However, the jobs in FFXIV take on a more serious approach. I am not saying that Pictomancer doesn't have a place among them. I am saying that based off of what I have seen thus far, it has missed the mark. I am saying they could have done a better job crafting this new job in a manner that fits the overall aesthetic of FFXIV jobs. The cartoony battle effects does not line it up with the other jobs, it lines it up with the cutesy crap in the game we don't take very seriously for obvious reasons. Hopefully that can put it into perspective why this argument is weak and doesn't help you. They are also not your own words. You're just regurgitating them.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That you would choose something different if given that choice, and that is my point. I am really not sure what it is exactly you take issue with. Is it the fact that some people, myself included simply do not like this job? I'm quite sure many players will think, "Well, you don't have to play it then." And they're right. I don't have to play it, and I don't have to like it either.

...snip...

The cartoony battle effects does not line it up with the other jobs, it lines it up with the cutesy crap in the game we don't take very seriously for obvious reasons.

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I think part of the problem is that SE is running out of design space and that covers mechanics, visual art, etc. They probably also have only a handful of serious designs already lined up and they need at least one for Meteor to take on each expansion.

In terms of visual space, while I personally minimize other people's effects, not everyone does and having something visually distinctive helps a lot. I did appreciate the broad slicing effect of Reaper, but since that's already taken a gloppier slower effect gives it some distinctiveness. You've got literally about 600 battle effects give or take maybe 50. Adding another 50 battle effects on top of that that all need to be distinctive and it's getting kind of difficult to make abilities that look like a particular job and not like the other jobs, so I'm going to give the designers a little slack on this and actually applaud them for making something really distinct. It may not be your preferred style, but it serves at least one job really well.

I don't understand the argument that Picto abilities are out of place. There's literally paintbrushes in this game, paint effects in at least one main story boss I can think of, and moogles are an FF staple that's in XIV itself. So what exactly is out of place about it? The fact it's not an effervescent neon laser fest like most of our current abilities? If you've come to this conclusion did maybe not stop and think to yourself that doing something different was the entire point?

I think the problem is that it’s another class like the healers, dancer and arguably bard that really seems like it will fit the game but it doesn’t fit the WOL per say

They have done a lot to characterise the WOL recently outside of meteor and the characterisation leans strongly towards the tank/melee/BLM favouritism that meteor himself also leans towards

Like for example my WOL is a healer but I’ve also had to held alot of his OC lore around making that fit, the canon WOL lore and personality really doesn’t fit these sorts of jobs

Don’t get me wrong I’m super excited for PIC but I think that’s white a lot of the complaints come from

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't understand the argument that Picto abilities are out of place. There's literally paintbrushes in this game, paint effects in at least one main story boss I can think of, and moogles are an FF staple that's in XIV itself. So what exactly is out of place about it? The fact it's not an effervescent neon laser fest like most of our current abilities? If you've come to this conclusion did maybe not stop and think to yourself that doing something different was the entire point?

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My complaint and opinion is that it looks cartoonish and rather dumb. Some are going to like it prob, but I doubt it'll be widely played because it's a literal eyesore. And for every Moogle fan I'd wager there's 5 or more that would drown their entire species in a river given a chance, lol. I'd rather they would keep the game thematically in-line with a more traditional, darker and serious tone but at this late stage in ff14's development cycle the well of ideas is probably starting to run dry. So, it is what it is. We embrace the absurd, try to ignore it, or go play something else.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...65/687/b0c.png

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Originally Posted by Truen

My complaint and opinion is that it looks cartoonish and rather dumb. Some are going to like it prob, but I doubt it'll be widely played because it's a literal eyesore. And for every Moogle fan I'd wager there's 5 or more that would drown their entire species in a river given a chance, lol. I'd rather they would keep the game thematically in-line with a more traditional, darker and serious tone but at this late stage in ff14's development cycle the well of ideas is probably starting to run dry. So, it is what it is. We embrace the absurd, try to ignore it, or go play something else.

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I base my thoughts on data and of the data that is accessible that I last reviewed, jobs are played at roughly the same levels across the board. There's no evidence to support that any Job so far is unlikable enough to be played by significantly less people outside of endgame meta preferences which are, for the purposes of this topic, completely irrelevant. If Picto is an eye sore played by almost no one, then it will officially be the first of its kind.

What is actually happening here, what almost always happens., is that someone is trolling and a minority of players perpetuate the topic and scare monger "x is going to flop" based on their own projected hatred.

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Originally Posted by Truen

My complaint and opinion is that it looks cartoonish and rather dumb. Some are going to like it prob, but I doubt it'll be widely played because it's a literal eyesore. And for every Moogle fan I'd wager there's 5 or more that would drown their entire species in a river given a chance, lol. I'd rather they would keep the game thematically in-line with a more traditional, darker and serious tone but at this late stage in ff14's development cycle the well of ideas is probably starting to run dry. So, it is what it is. We embrace the absurd, try to ignore it, or go play something else.

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Hell yes. Inject the whimsy into my veins.

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Originally Posted by Truen

My complaint and opinion is that it looks cartoonish and rather dumb. Some are going to like it prob, but I doubt it'll be widely played because it's a literal eyesore. And for every Moogle fan I'd wager there's 5 or more that would drown their entire species in a river given a chance, lol. I'd rather they would keep the game thematically in-line with a more traditional, darker and serious tone but at this late stage in ff14's development cycle the well of ideas is probably starting to run dry. So, it is what it is. We embrace the absurd, try to ignore it, or go play something else.

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My soul is a black abyss, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Dorito_Burrito

Hell yes. Inject the whimsy into my veins.

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now now, let the PAINters suffer with dignity

rest of us, prepare your rainbow filters (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

EDIT this, and way earlier discussions about PIC and how fun, whimsy, and colour = not good just makes me think of this ancient extra credits episode

Hard-Boiled - Why Are There So Many Gritty Video Games? - Extra Credits

its not happening to ffxiv, but... just the attitudes, my dudes.

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Originally Posted by Asterden

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't voice your opinions. What people are saying is that if the job aesthetic isn't for you then don't play it. I don't think that's very hard to understand or do. You can say it's ugly, garbage or whatever, and people are allowed to say the opposite. However, what I am seeing is a lot of people that dislike the job are arguing that pictomancer is somehow a flaw in game design or a stain on the game's image. How is ONE job affecting YOUR experience? Saying "don't like it, don't play it" isn't dismissive, it's a valid solution to your problem. This goes for everyone and not just you. There are jobs in this game that I will not play because I just do not care for them. I really don't like the aesthetic choices for reaper, samurai, or dark knight for example, and I am free to express those opinions, but what I am not gonna do is claim that these jobs "don't fit" in FFXIV. Like, what makes the job or theme of pictomancer, "less" FFXIV than the other jobs?

Personally, I think it's mighty self-righteous for some players to dictate what is or not aesthetically acceptable in MMO that's heavy in the RPG.

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It's easy to dismiss dissatisfaction with a simple 'don't like it, don't play it,' but that's hardly constructive advice. Everyone has their own preferences, even when it comes to the aesthetics of a job. We've all likely found ourselves playing jobs we didn't particularly enjoy for various reasons – perhaps for the sake of rewards, fashion, or even at the request of a static group. This game does offer the option to explore other jobs, with achievements and titles tied to leveling each one. Labeling someone's dissatisfaction as 'self-righteous' seems unfair, as it implies superiority in one's own stance. Opinions are valid on both sides, but it's essential to acknowledge that 'don't like it, don't play it' isn't a solution. This forum serves as a platform for players to voice their feedback, whether it pertains to gameplay mechanics or aesthetics. Criticism about aesthetics holds weight just as much as gameplay feedback does. If we were to adopt the 'don't like it, don't play it' mentality universally, it would lead to absurd conclusions – such as telling players unhappy with the character graphics updates not to play. After all, glamour is the real endgame on FFXIV is it not? The "don't like it, don't play it" stance often seems like the only recourse, but it's not a real solution. Let's encourage open dialogue and constructive criticism rather than shutting down valid concerns.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

It's easy to dismiss dissatisfaction with a simple 'don't like it, don't play it,' but that's hardly constructive advice. Everyone has their own preferences, even when it comes to the aesthetics of a job. We've all likely found ourselves playing jobs we didn't particularly enjoy for various reasons – perhaps for the sake of rewards, fashion, or even at the request of a static group. This game does offer the option to explore other jobs, with achievements and titles tied to leveling each one. Labeling someone's dissatisfaction as 'self-righteous' seems unfair, as it implies superiority in one's own stance. Opinions are valid on both sides, but it's essential to acknowledge that 'don't like it, don't play it' isn't a solution. This forum serves as a platform for players to voice their feedback, whether it pertains to gameplay mechanics or aesthetics. Criticism about aesthetics holds weight just as much as gameplay feedback does. If we were to adopt the 'don't like it, don't play it' mentality universally, it would lead to absurd conclusions – such as telling players unhappy with the character graphics updates not to play. After all, glamour is the real endgame on FFXIV is it not? The "don't like it, don't play it" stance often seems like the only recourse, but it's not a real solution. Let's encourage open dialogue and constructive criticism rather than shutting down valid concerns.

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Nothing in 14’s reward structure is worth playing outside of a limited collection of jobs you do enjoy

For example I’ve been playing since legacy and I’ve always been a (ignoring legacy classes themselves) SCH main who is happy to flex to another healer based on the expansion (so right now my preferred flex is SGE), PLD, BLM/SMN (before EW) and BRD.

In 13 years and many savage statics I have never felt the need to actively play jobs I don’t like (namely the melees) and this has never been a problem

There is enough jobs that “if you don’t like it don’t play it” is a perfectly acceptable response. The amuro is not worth changing an entire job because a person who is never going to main it isn’t going to play it anyway

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Nothing in 14’s reward structure is worth playing outside of a limited collection of jobs you do enjoy

For example I’ve been playing since legacy and I’ve always been a (ignoring legacy classes themselves) SCH main who is happy to flex to another healer based on the expansion (so right now my preferred flex is SGE), PLD, BLM/SMN (before EW) and BRD.

In 13 years and many savage statics I have never felt the need to actively play jobs I don’t like (namely the melees) and this has never been a problem

There is enough jobs that “if you don’t like it don’t play it” is a perfectly acceptable response. The amuro is not worth changing an entire job because a person who is never going to main it isn’t going to play it anyway

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Dismissing dissatisfaction with a "don't like it, don't play it" attitude isn't genuine advice. It's a stance I firmly stand against.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Dismissing dissatisfaction with a "don't like it, don't play it" attitude isn't genuine advice. It's a stance I firmly stand against.

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That would be valid if it was actually advice about problematic gameplay design (like current WAR) but right now people are complaining entirely on aesthetic basis

Not liking a classes aesthetics 100% falls into the “if you don’t like the aesthetics don’t play the class”

Arguing that you want different aesthetics is pointless because you can get different aesthetics by playing a different class

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That would be valid if it was actually advice about problematic gameplay design (like current WAR) but right now people are complaining entirely on aesthetic basis

Not liking a classes aesthetics 100% falls into the “if you don’t like the aesthetics don’t play the class”

Arguing that you want different aesthetics is pointless because you can get different aesthetics by playing a different class

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I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye on this. To me, "Don't like it, Don't play it" also applies to job design. It could also be used on the graphic update too. Don't like your dead eyes? Pick a different race. That's aesthetics too. I don't understand how aesthetics is unacceptable as valid criticism.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

It's easy to dismiss dissatisfaction with a simple 'don't like it, don't play it,' but that's hardly constructive advice. Everyone has their own preferences, even when it comes to the aesthetics of a job.

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Okay you say it yourself: Everyone has their own preferances.

And when "don't like it don't play it" is not a valid argument:

How on earth do you solve this problem? By this logic everyone has to like everything despite everyone has different preferences. You simply can't please everyone. And arguing about it will lead to nothing. That's why we have different races, jobs and - since this is a theme park MMO - different types of content.

I don't like Viera, Reaper, Blue Mage, Savage Raids and dozens of other things in this game.

Do I complain that I get paired with a Viera in a dungeon? No of course I don't.

I just mind my own business and play the race I like, the jobs I like and the content I like.


Of course you have a valid point if there were no options. Like the graphics update you mentioned. Or like every healer is boring or there is no proper endgame content beside savage raids. Don't using the only option you have does not create a new option.

But there are many jobs to choose from which may be more to your liking.

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After all, glamour is the real endgame on FFXIV is it not? The "don't like it, don't play it" stance often seems like the only recourse, but it's not a real solution.

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Yes it is a solution. The whole purpose of glamour is "don't like it, don't wear it".

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye on this. To me, "Don't like it, Don't play it" also applies to job design. It could also be used on the graphic update too. Don't like your dead eyes? Pick a different race. That's aesthetics too. I don't understand how aesthetics is unacceptable as valid criticism.

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Because there is no logical ending to an aesthetics criticism

If I said I wanted DRK’s 1-2-3 to look like sailor moon’s transformation would that be a valid aesthetic criticism of DRK that is worth considering changing DRK for

No of course not I’d just be told to play a different job

Aesthetic criticism just really isn’t a valid reason to change a job because it doesn’t affect gameplay. It’s the same reason why it’s pointless to argue against others taste in glamour, because you don’t have to wear what they are wearing

The only time I’d really argue aesthetic criticism is valid is a situation like modern healers where all 4 options are “UWU I'm h-h-hewe t-to make aww youw wounds nyice and bettew“. However casters are visually diverse so you have options

I think it's unrealistic to "improve the experience for everyone". Whether it's a job rotation or aesthetic change, no matter how many people like it, there will still be a portion that don't like it.

You both present compelling arguments that I find difficult to refute, yet I can't shake the feeling that "Don't like it, don't play it" shouldn't be the default response. It's challenging for me to let go of that stance.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye on this. To me, "Don't like it, Don't play it" also applies to job design. It could also be used on the graphic update too. Don't like your dead eyes? Pick a different race. That's aesthetics too. I don't understand how aesthetics is unacceptable as valid criticism.

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Unfortunately applying one type of logic to everything doesn't really make sense. Some things can be true about one thing but not others.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

You both present compelling arguments that I find difficult to refute, yet I can't shake the feeling that "Don't like it, don't play it" shouldn't be the default response. It's challenging for me to let go of that stance.

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It's not being used as a default response here, though, it genuinely applies. Aesthetics are subjective and plenty of people are excited for Pictomancer. People are simply recognising that. This isn't taking away what somebody already has (such as changes from the graphics update or an unsatisfactory job rework) or offering no other choice (like the MSQ or the massive boss hit boxes) so, as long as it does please a lot of other players, "don't like it, don't play it" is a reasonable response. But in the other examples given it'd be a terrible response.

The fact that an argument is bad in some situations, doesn't mean it's bad in all situations. I do understand your concern with it's use but I think it's fine here in discussion of the aesthetics of a new job.

Job design is false equivalency because it's undefined. We are talking about altering trailers, the Scion being a wrong choice, the armor being bad, the animations being out of place. The magnitude of that seems massive when you think about a single instance of job Design i.e. "this ability is removed", "this ability is buffed". Don't like it don't play it isn't consistent across every single topic, but it can be applied to things that consume an unreasonable amount of resources and just aren't going to change.

The FFXIV community conflates dev openness to feedback with all feedback being valid and that just isn't true. Conversely, that kind of thinking is too broad and too extreme to apply to any given situation. It's important to be objective when it comes to recommending changes to the game. Complaining about Picto (aesthetically anyway, devs will willfully homogenize its gameplay for you) is both futile and self serving.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I'm afraid we won't see eye to eye on this. To me, "Don't like it, Don't play it" also applies to job design. It could also be used on the graphic update too. Don't like your dead eyes? Pick a different race. That's aesthetics too. I don't understand how aesthetics is unacceptable as valid criticism.

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Fine then, provide us an aesthetic that everyone likes.

Bonoki: I'm not really a fan of the looks of the Pictomancer.

ITT: "omg, the data says..." "that's not a logical argument", "make one everyone likes then"

lol, since when does not liking something have to be logical and have data supporting it? She doesn't like it, she shared her opinion on it. (and yes, you're allowed to share your responses to her criticism too, as silly as I may find them)

I'm sure PIC aesthetics were tested internally, at a minimum. So they have some indications that it'll so it's job in terms of selling units.

Honestly and personally, I find the modern clothes glams to be more immersion breaking. Sneakers, CK-style bands, hoodies are all modern, sometimes very. All this without the intervening fashion and technological evolutions that made them possible. For me, they're very out of place with no in universe explanation of why fashion suddenly shifted from medieval and Renaissance to 21st century street clothes

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Bonoki: I'm not really a fan of the looks of the Pictomancer.

ITT: "OMG, tHe dAta SaYS..." "THatS NOt A lOgICaL ArGUmENT", "MaKE oNE EVerYOnE LikES ThEN"

lol, since when does not liking something have to be logical and have data supporting it? She doesn't like it, she shared her opinion on it. (and yes, you're allowed to share your responses to her criticism too, as silly as I may find them)

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No offence, but like. Grow up. Either peoples' opinions are valid or tHeY'rE sOmEtHiNg YoU mAkE fUn Of LiKe ThIs. Pick one.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Bonoki: I'm not really a fan of the looks of the Pictomancer.

ITT: "OMG, tHe dAta SaYS..." "THatS NOt A lOgICaL ArGUmENT", "MaKE oNE EVerYOnE LikES ThEN"

lol, since when does not liking something have to be logical and have data supporting it? She doesn't like it, she shared her opinion on it. (and yes, you're allowed to share your responses to her criticism too, as silly as I may find them)

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That's not what the argument is. The argument being made is that "don't like it, don't play it" isn't applicable advice because the aesthetic presentation of Picto is subjectively bad. Unfortunately, that's exactly why "don't like it, don't play it" is applicable advice. There are numerous other jobs you can play, and jobs are not designed to appeal to every single player. Jobs are designed to appeal to as many players as possible. The only thing you're right about here is that people have a right to complain. And I have a right to tell them that while I respect their opinion, their opinion is most likely going nowhere. But as long as you are aware that your complaints are self serving, that's totally fine. Don't pretend it's objective, reasonable, etc.

I think if anything, you rendering it back down to "well it's just my opinion", demonstrates there's no credible or coherent argument being formed ITT for Pictomancer actually being a problem.

And it *is* important to clarify when statements are not supported by data or historical trends (at least) because there has to be some well agreed upon base for all of us to work with or else it's just you talking to yourself, basically.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Yeah given outside of her outfit design she's mostly been a mature and serious character, I mean she's meant to be respected academic so giving her the goofy/silly cute job seems a little off

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as if she hasn't been wearing a goofy silly outfit the whole time.

Edit: you did mention the outfit, which I missed, but still, I don't really see why her going for a "silly" job is wierd, when she has has that thing on

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Originally Posted by Doozer

No offence, but like. Grow up. Either peoples' opinions are valid or tHeY'rE sOmEtHiNg YoU mAkE fUn Of LiKe ThIs. Pick one.

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Why do I have to pick one? Also, what does growing up have to do with this? Bonoki shared her opinion, and was met with a bunch of condescending responses, so I responded in kind.

Bonoki is the one who started quoting and arguing with people first, and it was still silly arguments. "Picto is bad because Astrologians use cards and Bards use bows". Like that somehow makes Bards and Astrologian unique lol.

All 3 classes use tools one would expect of them.

I just want to put my opinion on here to say that, at the moment, Pictomancer is going to be the caster I level first and do the role quests with.

I like the aesthetic and I hope I enjoy the gameplay so that I can have a caster I do enjoy playing whenever I feel like playing a caster.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I just want to put my opinion on here to say that, at the moment, Pictomancer is going to be the caster I level first and do the role quests with.

I like the aesthetic and I hope I enjoy the gameplay so that I can have a caster I do enjoy playing whenever I feel like playing a caster.

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Same. I can't wait to wave that paintbrush with my lala. She is going to be so cute

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Bonoki is the one who started quoting and arguing with people first, and it was still silly arguments. "Picto is bad because Astrologians use cards and Bards use bows". Like that somehow makes Bards and Astrologian unique lol.

All 3 classes use tools one would expect of them.

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Rather than arguing, I was engaged in civil debates. Furthermore, it's important not to misrepresent my words. I never labeled Pictomancer as 'bad'; rather, I simply stated that it didn't captivate me and elaborated on why that was the case. Additionally, I defended Bard and Astrologian by explaining why their whimsical animations recieved less scrutiny. While I recognize that my opinions may be unpopular, let's ensure that the initial message remains clear and accurately conveyed.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Rather than arguing, I was engaged in civil debates. Furthermore, it's important not to misrepresent my words. I never labeled Pictomancer as 'bad'; rather, I simply stated that it didn't captivate me and elaborated on why that was the case. Additionally, I defended Bard and Astrologian by explaining why their whimsical animations recieved less scrutiny. While I recognize that my opinions may be unpopular, let's ensure that the initial message remains clear and accurately conveyed.

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I'm happy to agree that you didn't literally use the word bad, but nonetheless my point to that user is that you were not being addressed in any particularly unusual way as they have clearly implied. I agree that the topic has been civil, I'm puzzled why they seem to disagree.

Also worth noting I was using the word argument more traditionally, not to denote anger. I'm trying to assess your various positions and ultimately they seem to boil down to personal preferences. What I'm really looking for ITT is something that proves Pictomancer is somehow a problem, but I haven't seen that from you or anyone.

I think with all animations on, many other jobs have actually problematic "compelling" abilities that make fights more challenging, whereas Pictomancer's seem cleaner. Interestingly it's the opposite of a problem in this sense.

Picto is a stand user. It’s not silly, it’s cool

https://i.imgur.com/xNt2qmA.gif

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Why do I have to pick one? Also, what does growing up have to do with this? Bonoki shared her opinion, and was met with a bunch of condescending responses, so I responded in kind.

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Do I really have to haul out the "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, y'know, the one you say to a child?