The Perfect Response to "Take a Break"

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

That's honestly the perfect response to this thread. People keep talking about how lackluster things are or say other games do other things better. Offer ideas of what exactly 'high-quality content' is to you. Chances are if its something that has never been in the game before, it might not ever be included, but this dev team does like to try new stuff in each expansion from time to time or try a different spin on old stuff as well. Offer ideas, not just say ambiguous stuff because that just comes off as being someone who's trying to get attention. Unless you have someone paying for you to post here, then you should be old enough to give SE money to keep posting here, so act 18+ and use words to form proper opinions that can be used to start a proper discussion.

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Offer ideas!

But definitely not in the way a certain dreamer does. Thats a bit too much offering.

There's a difference between offering ideas for improving the gameplay, and bemoaning how the story direction isn't catering to your bespoke interests.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

That's honestly the perfect response to this thread. People keep talking about how lackluster things are or say other games do other things better. Offer ideas of what exactly 'high-quality content' is to you. Chances are if its something that has never been in the game before, it might not ever be included, but this dev team does like to try new stuff in each expansion from time to time or try a different spin on old stuff as well. Offer ideas, not just say ambiguous stuff because that just comes off as being someone who's trying to get attention. Unless you have someone paying for you to post here, then you should be old enough to give SE money to keep posting here, so act 18+ and use words to form proper opinions that can be used to start a proper discussion.

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I quite literally wrote out an entire patch schedule in response to a similar post such as this one. That too, was deemed insufficient.

It is not my job to spell things out in such detail regardless. I have been direct and to the point about what brings me and players like myself to the game and what is and is not capable of holding our attention in terms of both playable content and writing.

Given the severity of the situation with Endwalker, we are long past the point where feedback can afford to be prefaced with unnecessary fluff. And attempts to mischaracterize the desires of other players or tone police their feedback will not result in the changes the game so desperately needs if it still wants to try and claim to be a Final Fantasy title. With gameplay and story in this state, it is unrecognizable as one. Both aspects have been stripped of grit or compelling elements in favor of creating a wholly inoffensive and transient experience.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I quite literally wrote out an entire patch schedule in response to a similar post such as this one. That too, was deemed insufficient.

It is not my job to spell things out in such detail regardless. I have been direct and to the point about what brings me and players like myself to the game and what is and is not capable of holding our attention in terms of both playable content and writing.

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Can you put aside your personal vision a few minutes to understand that others simply don't agree with you on what would make the game better?

Players like yourself are fewer than you realize. If the game content and story aren't holding your attention, then chances are good it's not intended to.

You can keep returning in an attempt to push your vision on the game but it will be futile effort. The game's vision is that of the development team, not yours. As players, we are either entertained by their vision or we aren't. If we aren't, it's time to move on.

I read your stuff. It was utter tripe.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Can you put aside your personal vision a few minutes to understand that others simply don't agree with you on what would make the game better?

Players like yourself are fewer than you realize. If the game content and story aren't holding your attention, then chances are good it's not intended to.

You can keep returning in an attempt to push your vision on the game but it will be futile effort. The game's vision is that of the development team, not yours. As players, we are either entertained by their vision or we aren't. If we aren't, it's time to move on.

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No bro, you dont get it. The next time he posts his fanfics, they will surely hire him. /s

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Players like yourself are fewer than you realize. If the game content and story aren't holding your attention, then chances are good it's not intended to.

The game's vision is that of the development team, not yours. As players, we are either entertained by their vision or we aren't. If we aren't, it's time to move on.

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I can't help but feel it worth pointing out that completely discounting players who now find themselves unable to enjoy the game is a pretty bad idea. Why shouldn't long time players who don't like where the game they've put so much time, effort, and money into is going be allowed to voice their opinions? These are public forums; people are entitled to their opinions, whether the "majority" agrees with them or not. It's fine to disagree, but continually telling someone their posts aren't welcome when, near as I can tell, none of them are actually inflammatory or offensive, isn't exactly a good look. Disagree if you want. Call whatever thing a bad take if you want. Don't sit there and try and marginalize people for having differing tastes and/or opinions.

The "oh, but there are so few of you guys" argument is done to death. Someone's position on a matter won't magically change simply because they're in a minority, and I'm pretty sure most people know that. Using this argument is in effect simply an attempt to discourage further discourse by making someone feel outnumbered or shamed.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

It's fine to disagree, but continually telling someone their posts aren't welcome when, near as I can tell, none of them are actually inflammatory or offensive, isn't exactly a good look. Disagree if you want. Call whatever thing a bad take if you want. Don't sit there and try and marginalize people for having differing tastes and/or opinions.

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How else will we prove we're the best community though if we don't continue trying to snuff out anyone without a popular opinion?

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The "oh, but there are so few of you guys" argument is done to death. Someone's position on a matter won't magically change simply because they're in a minority, and I'm pretty sure most people know that. Using this argument is in effect simply an attempt to discourage further discourse by making someone feel outnumbered or shamed.

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I respectfully disagree. Pointing out that negative critics of the game (whether it be story or gameplay) are in the minority is meant to put things in perspective - it's easy to forget hanging out in locales that are frequented only by people with concurrent opinions, but more people than not are happy with the state and direction of the game. In spite of its flaws (and they do exist), people enjoy the game and its story - even if you don't and have objections to their direction. Vis a vis telling these people what they're enjoying is low-quality and poorly written isn't going to change their minds, and is pretty likely to leave them incensed.

Or at least, enough people are happy with it to keep it profitable, and at the end of the day that's what matters to the SE suits.

The game - with its current story direction and gameplay - might just not be for you. Sometimes you gotta accept that, and refusing to do so because of how much time and money you've spent on it is just Sunk Cost Fallacy. If you're not having fun with it, tell SE / CBU3 in the only way that really matters.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Why shouldn't long time players who don't like where the game they've put so much time, effort, and money into is going be allowed to voice their opinions?

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No one is saying they shouldn't. By all means leave feedback. But the same person leaving the same feedback over and over doesn't accomplish anything. It takes thousands of different voices leaving the same feedback to get noticed and change to occur.

Aveyond has spent every patch release since 6.1 bashing the game and trying to push their personal fanfic as the "savior" of the game when general reaction to their ideas has been negative.

How does the saying go? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

The results here aren't going to change. The game is in the hands of the developers and they have set their course for Dawntrail already.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

I respectfully disagree. Pointing out that negative critics of the game (whether it be story or gameplay) are in the minority is meant to put things in perspective - it's easy to forget hanging out in locales that are frequented only by people with concurrent opinions, but more people than not are happy with the state and direction of the game.

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If you say so. For people who are so concerned with how others come across it's interesting that of all things you chose this to follow up and then proceed to double down on.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Vis a vis telling these people what they're enjoying is low-quality and poorly written isn't going to change their minds, and is pretty likely to leave them incensed.

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I am not responsible for your reaction to criticism of FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The game - with its current story direction and gameplay - might just not be for you. Sometimes you gotta accept that, and refusing to do so because of how much time and money you've spent on it is just Sunk Cost Fallacy. If you're not having fun with it, tell SE / CBU3 in the only way that really matters.

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It has been explained multiple times that for users such as myself at the point of purchasing Crysta the money has gone to SE and where they choose to allocate those funds is completely beyond our control. The Crysta I have purchased for FFXI has no doubt been funnelled into FFXIV over the years so unfortunately this tactic is not effective. However, as the chart posted by Deceptus shows, the player population is plummeting back down to the level of previous expansions after having completely failed to retain the WoW population boost.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No one is saying they shouldn't. By all means leave feedback. But the same person leaving the same feedback over and over doesn't accomplish anything. It takes thousands of different voices leaving the same feedback to get noticed and change to occur.

Aveyond has spent every patch release since 6.1 bashing the game and trying to push their personal fanfic as the "savior" of the game when general reaction to their ideas has been negative.

How does the saying go? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

The results here aren't going to change. The game is in the hands of the developers and they have set their course for Dawntrail already.

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I think they been trying to push there fanfics since mid-shadowbringers or during the content lull before endwalkers release.

I say let them do their fan fiction. It's harmless and the game will NOT take that direction just because one person wants it.

They are minor in comparison to other problems the forums/game has.

Post more fanfic. It's always a laugh how hard he tries to be edgy. Reminds me of when I was a teenager and my parents just didn't get it, man.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Post more fanfic. It's always a laugh how hard he tries to be edgy. Reminds me of when I was a teenager and my parents just didn't get it, man.

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It's not a phase!

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Post more fanfic. It's always a laugh how hard he tries to be edgy. Reminds me of when I was a teenager and my parents just didn't get it, man.

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I mean, he might still be in that. He did say in another thread that he's in his early 20s and god, that explains so much. I look back on my late teens and early 20s and go "Man...I was such a cringe tryhard and an idiot." I mean...I'm still that second one, but hey, 33 years old and I'm at least not a cringe tryhard anymore! Just cringe!

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I quite literally wrote out an entire patch schedule in response to a similar post such as this one. That too, was deemed insufficient.

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If I remember correctly, your patch schedule wasn't deemed 'insufficient', it was deemed infeasible and completely disregarding the health and well being of the developers. Which I remember that last part, because I wrote up and almost posted a very, very, very strongly worded, seven or eight paragraph response to it but ultimately didn't post it cause it wouldn't be worth it. Because I've been on the developer side of the fence, and in the games industry in general, for like 13 to 15 years. And I've been through things like hard crunch and the sheer disregard you had/have for the developers health and well being left me rather...livid, to put it gently.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It is not my job to spell things out in such detail regardless. I have been direct and to the point about what brings me and players like myself to the game and what is and is not capable of holding our attention in terms of both playable content and writing.

Given the severity of the situation with Endwalker, we are long past the point where feedback can afford to be prefaced with unnecessary fluff. And attempts to mischaracterize the desires of other players or tone police their feedback will not result in the changes the game so desperately needs if it still wants to try and claim to be a Final Fantasy title. With gameplay and story in this state, it is unrecognizable as one. Both aspects have been stripped of grit or compelling elements in favor of creating a wholly inoffensive and transient experience.

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https://media.tenor.com/CkASCfIfaWIA...pinion-man.gif

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

I mean, he might still be in that. He did say in another thread that he's in his early 20s and god, that explains so much. I look back on my late teens and early 20s and go "Man...I was such a cringe tryhard and an idiot." I mean...I'm still that second one, but hey, 33 years old and I'm at least not a cringe tryhard anymore! Just cringe!

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I too used to be a cringey teenager. But I can say for certain, after years of personal growth, I am no longer a teenager.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

I mean, he might still be in that. He did say in another thread that he's in his early 20s and god, that explains so much. I look back on my late teens and early 20s and go "Man...I was such a cringe tryhard and an idiot." I mean...I'm still that second one, but hey, 33 years old and I'm at least not a cringe tryhard anymore! Just cringe!



If I remember correctly, your patch schedule wasn't deemed 'insufficient', it was deemed infeasible and completely disregarding the health and well being of the developers. Which I remember that last part, because I wrote up and almost posted a very, very, very strongly worded, seven or eight paragraph response to it but ultimately didn't post it cause it wouldn't be worth it. Because I've been on the developer side of the fence, and in the games industry in general, for like 13 to 15 years. And I've been through things like hard crunch and the sheer disregard you had/have for the developers health and well being left me rather...livid, to put it gently. That aside, the bigger thing I think some people forget was that Yoshida was also in charge of FF16 and to think that wouldn't impact 14's development in some way is naive, especially since SE handles all development in house.



https://media.tenor.com/CkASCfIfaWIA...pinion-man.gif

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Plus I think some people really forgot Covid was a real thing and greatly affected how many in the workforce value themselves and their time (part of the reason why the patch schedules we had before were extended by about a month). SE could've easily pulled a blizzard during the pandemic and went a year without updating the game, then what? Some people dont think in terms of reality.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

See the following image.

https://i.imgur.com/9J4FhPx.png

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When I tell someone to take a break or go outside I don't care how frustrated they are. They are acting irrationally and need an intervention. I am there for them.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I am not responsible for your reaction to criticism of FFXIV.

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I neither said nor implied that you were.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It has been explained multiple times that for users such as myself at the point of purchasing Crysta the money has gone to SE and where they choose to allocate those funds is completely beyond our control. The Crysta I have purchased for FFXI has no doubt been funnelled into FFXIV over the years so unfortunately this tactic is not effective. However, as the chart posted by Deceptus shows, the player population is plummeting back down to the level of previous expansions after having completely failed to retain the WoW population boost.

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Spoiler alert: where the money anybody spends on a subscription-based game goes is entirely unknown. Ideally it will be reinvested into the game itself, but nobody knows for sure. (You mean the money I spent on XIV might have been reinvested into Marvel's Avengers or, heavens forfend, Forspoken? G-gasp!) Whether you spent money on Crysta for XI is kind of irrelevant; if you aren't satisfied with the product, don't buy it. If you spent so much money on Crysta you can sub to this game every patch and even buy an expansion despite allegedly not playing and hating it all the same, you ought to find yourself a new hobby.

Player population always goes down between patches and expansions, and anyone doing a modicum of research could have told you post-6.0 MSQ would be kind of lackluster (as the 2.0 story arc concluded in 6.0 and they told us so, meaning the devs / writers were going to use 6.x as filler to get 7.0 written instead of leading to the expack's "True End" and setting up the next as per usual). CBU3 also had its hands full with XVI, and one thing Yoshi-P has said over the years is that the SE suits don't properly fund the game. Failing to retain the WoW population boost - at this point in time - is not as big of a deal as you seem to want it to be.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

I mean, he might still be in that. He did say in another thread that he's in his early 20s and god, that explains so much. I look back on my late teens and early 20s and go "Man...I was such a cringe tryhard and an idiot." I mean...I'm still that second one, but hey, 33 years old and I'm at least not a cringe tryhard anymore! Just cringe!

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My tastes have been pretty consistent. They were shaped by stories and games of substances and naturally I continue to seek and advocate for more in that vein. FFXIV was one of those games before they unceremoniously threw away everything in favor of what Endwalker turned out to be – an expansion that made me feel like I was being treated with gloves because people on twitter gave the impression that they didn’t want a story with proper consequences and required painfully frequent slice of life moments in order to “ease the tension” which I have never needed in any video game prior in my entire life. These players should have known what they were getting into in picking up a 16+ game, though Endwalker hardly resembles one at this point with stuff like the Fall Guys collaboration on the horizon.

This is not how you attract FF players to your game.

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Originally Posted by StarRosie

If I remember correctly, your patch schedule wasn't deemed 'insufficient', it was deemed infeasible and completely disregarding the health and well being of the developers. Which I remember that last part, because I wrote up and almost posted a very, very, very strongly worded, seven or eight paragraph response to it but ultimately didn't post it cause it wouldn't be worth it. Because I've been on the developer side of the fence, and in the games industry in general, for like 13 to 15 years. And I've been through things like hard crunch and the sheer disregard you had/have for the developers health and well being left me rather...livid, to put it gently.

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You do realize that my schedule including relic zones releasing in the .25 patch was literally what we had back in Stormblood, yes? Seeing your join date I would think you would have remembered and played through that expansion. In any case however, your personal emotions are not relevant to FFXIV’s current circumstances.

For the past 3 years there has been no content of substance so yes, unfortunately now this large company with ample resources at their disposal is going to have to play catchup. It is not my job to “regard” much beyond the quality of the product I’m receiving.

If you produce work of insufficient quality then expect criticism in return. I apologize if this comes across as blunt, but I am not willing to change my tone when the current situation demands clear and unapologetic communication.

And if this happens continually, it is only natural for the player’s patience to eventually evaporate and drop any pretense or this community’s exclusive ideas like “say something positive along with every negative thing” that hasn’t been helpful in the slightest. The game should not be in the state it’s in right now and advocating against it’s improvements by attempts at stifling feedback, which is an unfortunately commonplace practice, will only harm the game in the long term.

That is not what I want to see happen. I want to see the quality of content improve along with rewards such as in the case of Variant/Criterion – it should not have taken streamers pointing out the obvious when these issues would have been apparent from the inception of that content to anyone who actively plays the game. Unfortunately when articles get written that characterize individuals as “former mmorpg players” you can understand why this is some cause for alarm amongst those of us who still held out hope for improvements.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Plus I think some people really forgot Covid was a real thing and greatly affected how many in the workforce value themselves and their time (part of the reason why the patch schedules we had before were extended by about a month). SE could've easily pulled a blizzard during the pandemic and went a year without updating the game, then what? Some people dont think in terms of reality.

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What SE did was worse in my view, releasing no content with staying power for an entire expansion. A manufactured content drought.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In any case however, your personal emotions are not relevant to FFXIV’s current circumstances.

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I stopped reading here, because honestly? You're just coming across as a bit of a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This is not how you attract FF players to your game.

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"Final Fantasy players" is a pretty broad umbrella. You are aware there are games in the franchise not set in Ivalice, and all of them (Ivalice included) have humorous moments to ease the tension, yes? Even the ultra-edgy Stranger of Paradise has some softer and lighthearted moments. It's called "good writing." Furthermore if the only customers the game was trying to attract were "Final Fantasy players" it would never have grown to the juggernaut it is.

In NA the game is rated T (16+, weirdly; why not just go with M, it's only a 2 year difference) but in EU it's rated PEGI-13, and so is meant to be acceptable for anyone 13+. (In JP it's CERO 15, just for the record.) That you personally don't enjoy the tension-cutting slice of life scenes is just a difference in taste, not a mark of the game's writing falling off a cliff.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

In any case however, your personal emotions are not relevant to FFXIV’s current circumstances.

For the past 3 years there has been no content of substance so yes, unfortunately now this large company with ample resources at their disposal is going to have to play catchup.

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Comedy gold. Anyway...

There's been plenty of content of substance, it's just not to your taste.

SE is in financial disarray due to Yosuke Matsuda's ruinous business moves, and SE has chronically underfunded this game anyway.

However, I have good news for you, kiddo! A TTRPG version of the game was announced a few weeks back, meaning so long as you get a few friends together you can play through your story rewrites. It'll be on tabletop, and if you're GMing there's no guarantee your players will follow your story threads how you want them to (unless you decide to railroad and that's not cool at all), but playing through the game with your bespoke desires indulged is not so farfetched now!

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I stopped reading here, because honestly? You're just coming across as a bit of a hypocrite.

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Admittedly, it's always been quite clear that he thinks he's always right and everyone who disagrees is wrong, so if anything, that behavior it's consistent with his character.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

snip

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your personal emotions are not relevant to FFXIV’s current circumstances.

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Neither are yours buddy.

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This is not how you attract FF players to your game.

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Let me correct that one for you bud

You dont speak for the community.

I'll rephrase it just for you.

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This is not how you attract Aveyond-dreams to your game.

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And you know what ? So be it. You are a narcissist.

The game doesnt need your edgy teenager made up story that you keep writing on the forums.

Its funny how not too long ago, everyone started to have a sort of respect for aveyond after he made his quit declaration and didnt come back to the forums after 6.3 (or was it 6.4) where people actually started to take him seriously during this content lul.

But now that he broken his own quit moment to come back and nag at the forum posters with "I told ya so" posts about the state of post-EW just proves how low standards he actually has for any kind of integrity. It's all hypocritical.

And the thing is, I knew he was gonna come back and do this, or at least I expected him to during 7.0, not within the same patch lul that he has been criticizing for the current game being at

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Its funny how not too long ago, everyone started to have a sort of respect for aveyond after he made his quit declaration and didnt come back to the forums after 6.3 (or was it 6.4) where people actually started to take him seriously during this content lul.

But now that he broken his own quit moment to come back and nag at the forum posters with "I told ya so" posts about the state of post-EW just proves how low standards he actually has for any kind of integrity. It's all hypocritical.

And the thing is, I knew he was gonna come back and do this, or at least I expected him to during 7.0, not within the same patch lul that he has been criticizing for the current game being at

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I fully expected him to return due to how much attention seeking he does here. I also had no change in opinion while he was gone as I literally don’t think about him unless his posts are constantly on the top of the page.

I really don't have anything to say right now besides that I really struggle with the concept that the commonplace fantasy elements I embrace are viewed as too dark for a game that embraced them in the past back in Heavensward/Shadowbringers. If nothing else Endwalker gave me ample time to spend in games that invoke the same the spirit FFXIV used to before it lost its way.

In any case I'm not sympathetic towards the state of things in this game seeing as how obvious the solutions to dilemmas surrounding Endwalker content and reward structure, in addition to it's writing faults, could have been resolved at their inception rather than attempting to make amends this late. The game needs more work and less vacation time/visiting international game festivals if it's going to stand a chance at improving, and I stand by that.

I can't imagine what it must be like in SE's offices having seen the WoW boost in population only for Endwalker to completely lose it and continue seeing falling trends that show little sign of stopping. The last thing I would do in such a situation is be ok with increasing patch length cycles and making content that just does not make any attempt to entice the player or compete for their time.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

How else will we prove we're the best community though if we don't continue trying to snuff out anyone without a popular opinion?

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I think it's important for a healthy gaming community to be able to openly and critically discuss aspects of the game so that it continues to improve. I think the lack of this has had not had a positive effect on FFXIV, as the situation demonstrates.

Yeah, it's just a matter of either taking the approach of agreeing to disagree or just making use of the ignore function. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

In an ideal world we'd have community representatives present here and more moderation but that isn't the case and repeated attempts to request such have fallen on deaf ears.

So it's up to us, as posters, to curate a pleasant experience.