Which part of summoner's rotation am I meant to find satisfying?

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

The game runs on whatever code they use, not imagination. There are clearly limits to what can be done. I'm a big fan of pet classes and played one every chance I got. I stuck it out through a lot of different bugs and issues in different games. I would have very much liked to see something functional here, but it's clear that it's not going to happen. I'm not brushing anything off, just accepting the reality of the situation.

btw, Read the full text again if you don't understand what it is I'm saying.

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god i love people outing themselves like this, i see why people hunt people like this. you explain to me why our current combat system can handle an entire 50+ abilities being added to the game in the form of bozja lost actions (granted only like 30 were actually new or reused older actions but my point still stands) or an entirely new combat mechanic like the elemental system in eureka. or hell i'll do you one better BLU mage which basically requires unique coding for some abilities or reworking older code from the enemies moves to work in the players hands. but they can't even make AI more responsive or snappy when mobs/bosses have better AI than our pets in THEIR OWN SYSTEMS/coding mind you.

also systems can be updated/changed same with the internal coding will you run into issues? sure thats just coding in general. should it be used as an excuse? absolutely not. especially when they have the funds to hire someone or a team to make a proper pet system despite the technical and systematic issues we had here. i wouldn't doubt if modders had gotten their hands on how pets operate they could've done it in a week. they already made noclippy and alexander XIV which both dealt with the ping and desync issues people had. but we can't expect the company itself to deal with those issues? we should have to rely on outside resources? what about console players? should they be forced to suffer with ping and desync issues instead of something being done about it since it's very clearly able to be done on PCs? should they just give up and let things slide? once again you're brushing off things to defend SE when you and i both know what you bring up is false and shouldn't be an excuse. the only semi excuse they have is the server shortage, and even then it didn't take a meteorologist to see how much the player base was gonna shoot up especially for an expansion that was going to be a big story finale and they could've planned ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

The game runs on whatever code they use, not imagination. There are clearly limits to what can be done. I'm a big fan of pet classes and played one every chance I got. I stuck it out through a lot of different bugs and issues in different games. I would have very much liked to see something functional here, but it's clear that it's not going to happen. I'm not brushing anything off, just accepting the reality of the situation.

btw, Read the full text again if you don't understand what it is I'm saying.

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Don't be obtuse, you know what you said was stupid.

It's easy to imagine a functional pet DPS because there's a functional pet Healer. Why are you even pointing to the "code" and saying "see? nothing they could do, they said so after all" are you an employee? Why defend such a flimsy excuse? Every issue with the pets in ShB was from Demi and Egi being mutually exclusive (single exception being Phoenix's infamous Scarlet Flame. No, needing to play around Bahamut wasn't an issue) it's not hard to imagine a Job that puts those two at odds less, or not at all.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

god i love people outing themselves like this, i see why people hunt people like this.

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Comments like this make me feel that some posters are a little unhinged.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Comments like this make me feel that some posters are a little unhinged.

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why cause we call people out on their BS? and i have to keep doing it so might as well take a little joy in it

It's easy to imagine people putting thought into their responses, yet here we are. How does Selene / Eos equate to a pet that can handle constantly attacking mobs and changing on the fly? Take a good look at that system and show me how it actually translates into something that can function on its own in a constantly changing situation. Selene used to be a DPS pet and they took that away.

What do Bozja spells have to do with functioning pet AI? This is almost comical, but generally sad to read through. Apples are being compared to oranges and lugnuts and pencils.


(edit: Unhinged is an understatement)

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's easy to imagine people putting thought into their responses, yet here we are. How does Selene / Eos equate to a pet that can handle constantly attacking mobs and changing on the fly? Take a good look at that system and show me how it actually translates into something that can function on its own in a constantly changing situation. Selene used to be a DPS pet and they took that away.

What do Bozja spells have to do with functioning pet AI? This is almost comical, but generally sad to read through. Apples are being compared to oranges and lugnuts and pencils.


(edit: Unhinged is an understatement)

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Honestly the Pet-Summoner ship has sailed, and really all of their comments here aren't going to bring it back. So I guess let them talk in circles *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

How does Selene / Eos equate to a pet that can handle constantly attacking mobs and changing on the fly?

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Well they already Embrace allies changing on the fly so I guess the basic attack, for example Wind Blade, is handled. If all pets have to be ranged to manage, so be it I can handle that Garuda-Egi was my favourite anyway. Automaton Queen, however, demonstrates a very stylish dash that could be used to mitigate the melee disadvantage.

As for pet abilities the big problem came from ability queueing, which they handled sluggishly if you for instance tried to weave Devotion and Enkindle after an Egi-Assault, and only was a serious problem if you wanted to follow up with a Demi. The solution here is also easy to imagine extrapolating from SCH, simply don't incentivize slamming all the pet abilities into a narrow window, don't give a variety of oGCDs and GCDs just pick one category, and don't make the cooldowns such that you need to use a bunch before a Demi or they're wasted.

Hopefully this helps you with your feeble imagination, maybe you can have some fun too and extrapolate from other parts of the game, for instance how easily you could solve everything with carefully designed temporary pets who finish their ability queue before despawning (hint: Arcanum summons technically do this even if they just feel like spells).

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Honestly the Pet-Summoner ship has sailed, and really all of their comments here aren't going to bring it back. So I guess let them talk in circles *shrug*

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Yep. That's the plan. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I played FFXI summoner and it was pretty much like the way XIV summoner is now. It was impossible to actually maintain a summon other than carbuncle. You summoned x for y benefit and switched back to Carb.

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No it most certainly does not. FFXI pets couldn't stay out because of developer made it consume massive amount of MP, not because of some spaghetti code. Even in the early days of FFXI you never kept Carby out because the Damage to MP cost ratio didn't justify the downtime which is why most SMN was SMN/WHM who mainly healed with occasional Summon to mitigate damage, (Stoneskin, Aerial Armor, Fenrir Roar). It was a sad joke.

The fact that we are still actively discussing SMN even after this redesign was supposed to "fix" the job just shows how much of a failure it was.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

No it most certainly does not. FFXI pets couldn't stay out because of developer made it consume massive amount of MP

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That's exactly what I meant by "impossible to maintain." Next time check for clarification? Ya'll are in such a mood to fight me. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

That's exactly what I meant by "impossible to maintain." Next time check for clarification? Ya'll are in such a mood to fight me. :rolleyes:

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Just for context the threads in this part of the forum is 95% complaining, so they really do find it hard to believe a lot of players have no issues with the class as it is now.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Just for context the threads in this part of the forum is 95% complaining, so they really do find it hard to believe a lot of players have no issues with the class as it is now.

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Complains are also important part of feedbacks because it shows something is definitely not right with what they immediately did to the object in question (in this case, SMN). If everything was alright no one would be here wasting their time.
Your attempts to disregard something this basic is also amusing. Keep going and bumping the thread for us.

Not a SMN main myself, but they’re one of my more frequently used amongst DPS jobs.

I think the only gameplay perk I found missing is the distinction between Bahamut vs Phoenix phases. The two felt way too similar.

The reason why I kinda disliked Bahamut pet AI in ShB was because their Wyrmwave was tied to their summoner finishing their GCD casts. Now that they have made Wyrmwaves procs independently, I would expect now we would still retain two trances: one immobile but hard hitting (Bahamut) & another mobile but less hard hitting (Phoenix, still hits harder than legos obviously). But no, they’ve outright removed those nuances by making both almost identical.

Also why do they remove the alternating 1-2 rotation on Phoenix phase? I personally liked those better than the current one :( Especially the 2nd button animation—I won’t get to see them in boss encounters…

Bio & Miasma removal is up in the air imho. Rotation wise I don't see any problem it'll impose by adding them back, but it feels rather shallow if it exist currently for the sake of 'to be there', if that makes any sense.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Given you have been complaining about current summoner for nearly 7 months now I doubt you need me to bump this for you. Have. A great night!

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and if you want yes men who don't see anything wrong with the class and get triggered with any criticism go back to reddit. at least with the forums people who are critical of the class dont get overflowed with people saying, get over it and pick a different class. if there is something wrong with the class people would and should be vocal about it. it would be a completely different story if this was a 100% new class instead of killing the old class to make this one.

honestly just ignore them they have no real points aside "but muh limitations". and just want the game to become a one button game, oh wait you basically play most jobs with only one button and clear 90% of content, but our glorious leader SE/yoshi-p couldn't make any mistakes. no we're in the wrong for providing feedback and ways to handle the situation for months and get presented with this dumpster fire instead. don't even bother replying i ain't arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the basics of the systems that they scream "limitiations" at. or even the basics of coding. modders can do what they say they "can't" within one day but sure bud limitations is the issue

If you actually believe the immovable spaghetti code excuse that gets thrown around to excuse everything, you should really start to worry about how much more longevity this game has. Certainly not another decade. It's not a great defense of a MMO to constantly argue very simple run of the mill technical solutions are just uniquely impossible for it.

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Originally Posted by stellahawke

and if you want yes men who don't see anything wrong with the class and get triggered with any criticism go back to reddit. at least with the forums people who are critical of the class dont get overflowed with people saying, get over it and pick a different class. if there is something wrong with the class people would and should be vocal about it. it would be a completely different story if this was a 100% new class instead of killing the old class to make this one.

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I'm not triggered at all. I like the class I get to actually play in the game right now.

I'm sorry it seems like the people in this sub-forum don't enjoy it, and everyone who felt the class has been a huge "bait and switch" since release. I can respect not wanting an entirely different class every few years, so I can agree on that.

Though I love current summoner, in the back of my mind I worry they will dramatically change it again come next expansion - as I've already experienced several times with this class, so I do know what that feels like.

As someone that hates the removal of but one skill on Samaurai, I can appreciate people look at the current Summoner and ask, "WTF is this class now?"

None of it, except in pvp. (Where it reigns supreme in high player count content)

SMN was the first class I actually maxed. Even learned some savage content with it. Then, the rework hit. I go from a slightly complex rotation to needing like 6 buttons. I went from trying to hit max Ruin IV stacks before summoning bahumut while keeping up all DOTS on multiple enemies using aetherflow to who gives a F about that crap? Push the summon buttons, push the attack buttons, and pretty much hit skill ceiling.

Had about 10 minutes of fun with it, then I realized it wasn't really possible to improve my gameplay with the class. I couldn't really mess up unless I died, but that's a really shitty bottom line...We already had an easy mode DPS class, dancer. You wanted pretty much no skill required? Play dancer and link with the other DPS. We don't need multiple high skill floor/low skill ceiling classes.

...I realize this is all just a rant from me. But as someone who loved this class so much to play savage content with it (as casual player), it still makes me mad how dumb they made it.

change summoner, but let the wyrm waves still proc automatically

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Originally Posted by godvivec

None of it, except in pvp. (Where it reigns supreme in high player count content)

SMN was the first class I actually maxed. Even learned some savage content with it. Then, the rework hit. I go from a slightly complex rotation to needing like 6 buttons. I went from trying to hit max Ruin IV stacks before summoning bahumut while keeping up all DOTS on multiple enemies using aetherflow to who gives a F about that crap? Push the summon buttons, push the attack buttons, and pretty much hit skill ceiling.

Had about 10 minutes of fun with it, then I realized it wasn't really possible to improve my gameplay with the class. I couldn't really mess up unless I died, but that's a really shitty bottom line...We already had an easy mode DPS class, dancer. You wanted pretty much no skill required? Play dancer and link with the other DPS. We don't need multiple high skill floor/low skill ceiling classes.

...I realize this is all just a rant from me. But as someone who loved this class so much to play savage content with it (as casual player), it still makes me mad how dumb they made it.

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It was in remembering ruin stacks that I realized how broken SMN was before EW and how I actually stopped enjoying it. I realized I left this job behind for well over a year and enjoyed jobs like RDM more and got into tanking and back to healing again.

I'm curious: How did you enjoy a job where you seldom used one of your pets, if ever? Using Titan for anything was generally frowned upon, mainly for its inability to generate as many stacks. Pathing was a problem. The trances had a lot of gaps in between. DoT spreading sounded great, but the damage wasn't even there.

We're better off just doing straight AoE damage and always using our full kit (all summons) and having full control of our DPS. I'm not saying it's perfect. There's definitely room for improvement, but it's way better than what we had before.

Are people just upset that more people are actually enjoying it and that special feeling of being one of the few to tolerate it is now gone?

Anyone else feel like Energy Drain and Aetherflow just feels out of place with current SMN?
Like they're just kinda weird thematically?

They rly feel like the black sheep to me in the rotation.
Not saying they should be removed but maybe reworked somehow to be more thematically consistent and also offer more choice, maybe a way to generate Aetherflow outside of Energy Drain.
Perhaps a way to spend them to extend a summon ( with a cd ).
Fester is just very strange currently and feels out of place, it made sense with the dots but I don't think it makes sense now.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Are people just upset that more people are actually enjoying it and that special feeling of being one of the few to tolerate it is now gone?

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Here is a non-comprehensive list of my grievances:

• The unenjoyable rotation- it has no build up, no thought, no anything but recoloured gemshines.
• The complete lack of “weight” from the summons. Casting 3 and a demi every minute rapidly erodes any sense of specialness about them.
• How few hardcasts there are/minute. I’m a caster, not a physical ranged.
• This is a bit more nebulous, but the loss of identity. It doesn’t feel like an alternate branch to scholar in any way beyond rotational complexity. It also doesn’t feel like a ff summoner either.
• The fact that for this, a job I quite liked was sacrificed.
• What exactly is the point in the pet? Nothing is cast from it anymore.
• The near-unchanging rotation. I’m at level cap, but I really pity anyone leveling from arcanist to 90.
• The complete lack of room for further development. While this is an issue with a lot of the reworks - see drk, war, mch, whm, ast, sch and kind of sage since it’s just a scholar with a new coat of paint.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Are people just upset that more people are actually enjoying it and that special feeling of being one of the few to tolerate it is now gone?

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This is the stupidest shit, why do I have to read it so often? No, it's not about being special or being loud about "oooh I love self flagellation soo much"; we just liked the job, and the job we liked was replaced with something not only borderline unrecognizable, but also comparatively mind-numbing to play. Why is that so hard to understand?

Your comments don't apply because you didn't like the job gameplay-wise or thematically. Spreading DoTs was cool, I liked doing it because it was a cool way to apply AoE damage. I liked Titan-Egi because he had a distinct purpose he was good at; it didn't matter so much that it was niche. Trances having a "gap" created a swell to the rotation, part of the reason SMN is boring as sin now is that there is no crescendo to the rotation. It's just big boring boss models every ~15s while you spam the same button. What's the point of using "all summons" if it requires that they're all the same? It doesn't even require this, just another way the rework is lazy. You straight up lack the mindset and preferences that old-SMN players have.

Currently a smn main, and honestly before the rework I dreaded leveling it to 90 (before we got a glimpse of what it was going to look like.)

I played it from 70-80 (After leveling SCH from 1-70 and finding it thoroughly unenjoyable) and found myself playing one of the most unsatisfying jobs I'd ever played - second only to Bard. I leveled it to 80 and didn't touch it again. Now I find it satisfying to play. But that's just my opinion /shrug

Can you say what it is you find satisfying about the current incarnation?
I imagine that having 40 levels of scholar after arcanist didn't help much with your experience with the previous version? I'm not sure any dps is particularly easy to jump right into at such a high level.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

We're better off just doing straight AoE damage and always using our full kit (all summons) and having full control of our DPS. I'm not saying it's perfect. There's definitely room for improvement, but it's way better than what we had before.

Are people just upset that more people are actually enjoying it and that special feeling of being one of the few to tolerate it is now gone?

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EW SMN is far from perfect. We're now set in a position that we don't "use" our summons, they are just a flashy AoE ability that replaced Egi-Assaults and after that we're left with one single spell a limited number of times and an ability that should come from the summon instead of the SMN. Not to mention we get our burst for free regardless of what we do during gem summons, which, I already said it before, is stupid as far as EW SMN goes.
Structure-wise EW SMN kit is so simplistic and rigid at the same time that saying we have full control of our dps feels like a bad joke. We have control of our dps when we have a choice in what spell we use at any time during a fight and how that choice weights on your overall dps. Right now, the SMN's overall dps is just given to him with the way it is designed, you simply don't have meaningful options.
Best example of having control of your dps is HW SMN, despite the pet AI problems. Lots of freedom with spells, different types of abilities doing different things and not tied to specific windows. The way we achieved DWT making Aetherflow meaningful... still can't understand why they removed this mechanic. EW SMN pales in comparison with HW SMN in terms of rotation flexibility and DPS management.

Actually, during HW a lot of jobs had interesting abilities but everything went downhill from Stormblood onwards, maybe excluding one or two jobs. Game been getting better at presenting story and casual content but the jobs gameplay wise just got worse every expansion from there. /shrugs

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Originally Posted by tearagion

This is the stupidest shit, why do I have to read it so often? No, it's not about being special or being loud about "oooh I love self flagellation soo much"; we just liked the job, and the job we liked was replaced with something not only borderline unrecognizable, but also comparatively mind-numbing to play. Why is that so hard to understand?

Your comments don't apply because you didn't like the job gameplay-wise or thematically. Spreading DoTs was cool, I liked doing it because it was a cool way to apply AoE damage. I liked Titan-Egi because he had a distinct purpose he was good at; it didn't matter so much that it was niche. Trances having a "gap" created a swell to the rotation, part of the reason SMN is boring as sin now is that there is no crescendo to the rotation. It's just big boring boss models every ~15s while you spam the same button. What's the point of using "all summons" if it requires that they're all the same? It doesn't even require this, just another way the rework is lazy. You straight up lack the mindset and preferences that old-SMN players have.

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It's hard to understand because after a while I looked at the job in ShB and I saw that it was clearly broken. I very much enjoyed the concept and the theme. I heard about how it used to be and that sounded nice, but that just didn't exist anymore. You ask what's the point of having all summons if they all do the same thing? What was the point of having them if you didn't use them all? Don't even try to argue about my mindset like you even know me. You have no idea what I'm like and what I did beforehand. I'm just trying to understand what people saw in it and what could possibly come back in some way. Quit being so goddamned defensive over some simple questions. I could care less how much you've heard them. I'd like to know for myself.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's hard to understand because after a while I looked at the job in ShB and I saw that it was clearly broken. I very much enjoyed the concept and the theme. I heard about how it used to be and that sounded nice, but that just didn't exist anymore. You ask what's the point of having all summons if they all do the same thing? What was the point of having them if you didn't use them all? Don't even try to argue about my mindset like you even know me. You have no idea what I'm like and what I did beforehand. I'm just trying to understand what people saw in it and what could possibly come back in some way. Quit being so goddamned defensive over some simple questions. I could care less how much you've heard them. I'd like to know for myself.

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It's hard to understand because you're being obtuse, or you're just stupid. They didn't fix SMN, they replaced it. This would upset anyone who liked something despite its flaws.

I did use them all, Titan-Egi in ShB did more damage on an Egi-Assault 2 vs. 2 targets than Ifrit-Egi, so I used it.

You clearly don't give a shit about anyone's answers to your "questions" otherwise you would have responded to the post above mine. You're not trying to understand anything, successfully.

This conversation continues going in circles meanwhile it is still inexcusable that after 8 years of not knowing what to do with this job that at level 90 it is missing half a typical FF summoner's pantheon and associated abilities. The people who wanted dot gameplay should not have been deceived into thinking Summoner was the class for them, they should have had another class to suit that fantasy better. A time mage who could stack and spread multiple dots, triggering bursts with "Spell-in-Waiting" mechanics maybe. I don't know. But Summoner was not the job to co-opt for this.

The Summoner of Shadowbringers was not working well for either group. The Summoner of Endwalker is not working well for either group. Which is why I find myself playing a lot more FFXI these days where I can use Shiva and Fenrir whenever I want. If they had simply used the FFXI model as their base when making this job then none of this would have happened and gameplay styles wouldn't need to be deleted this late into the game. Unfortunately they chose to course correct at the absolute last minute.

The current state of things is difficult if not outright impossible to defend any longer especially when Dragoon and Astrologian are about to receive "changes" by the same people who thought removing Kaiten was a good idea. Summoner needs an expanded kit to work with. Not reversions. What little worked of previous iterations need to go to Necromancer or Time Mage - assuming that another caster is even an option given that we have the problem of Blue Mage taking up a slot. They could announce 7.0 will have a scouting and physical ranged dps and the community would justify such a decision by pointing to another job with massive controversies over its implementation, and the problem would go unresolved.

Goodness, they'd probably also argue against the addition of Shiva as a summon citing lore so precious to them that it cannot be touched despite the fact that we call up Phoenix every other cycle of the rotation. We need more gems, we need those gems to actually do unique things, we need an Elder Summon to build up to, and we need for this job to get the attention and love it deserves.

After 8 years why does ff14’s summoner not count as a valid incarnation?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

After 8 years why does ff14’s summoner not count as a valid incarnation?

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Because one look at any other Summoner in the series puts FFXIV's version to shame. If dots were your thing then you deserved a full fledged Time Mage or Necromancer, you would have been far happier with that than having to engage in this seemingly endless discourse against those of us who prefer to be traditional Final Fantasy Summoners.

Merging these two identities helped no one in the end.

I am not satisfied as someone who has almost all available summons in FFXI (and their many abilities) and you aren't because after 8 years things got so bad on Summoner that they had to wipe the slate clean entirely.

Let’s look at ff3: if it’s something important you use bahamut until you can’t, then drop to leviathan etc. I’m pretty sure there’s an item you can cast lower level summons from to bypass the mp restrictions but it’s been a while.

Ff4: rydia also has black magic and white too initially.

Ff5: ff5’s entire combat system is multiclassing

Ff9: looks like it’s white mage + summoner?

Ff11: oh another game where you have subjobs. White mage, scholar and black mage by the looks of it.

Tactics: summons stuff, also a game where you’re likely to be multiclassing summoner and black or time mages. Not even necessarily with summoner as the main job.

Tactics advance 2: kind of bad, viera only and like most things getting doublecast off red mage is a good idea for it.

Perhaps this anaemic summoner is true to form seeing as cross class skills are no longer in the game.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Let’s look at ff3: if it’s something important you use bahamut until you can’t, then drop to leviathan etc. I’m pretty sure there’s an item you can cast lower level summons from to bypass the mp restrictions but it’s been a while.

Ff4: rydia also has black magic and white too initially.

Ff5: ff5’s entire combat system is multiclassing

Ff9: looks like it’s white mage + summoner?

Ff11: oh another game where you have subjobs. White mage, scholar and black mage by the looks of it.

Tactics: summons stuff, also a game where you’re likely to be multiclassing summoner and black or time mages. Not even necessarily with summoner as the main job.

Tactics advance 2: kind of bad, viera only and like most things getting doublecast off red mage is a good idea for it.

Perhaps this anaemic summoner is true to form seeing as cross class skills are no longer in the game.

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And in not one of these instances is Summoner cross-classed or subjobbed with a dot class. The only possible instance of this would be in Tactics but that is purely the player's decision and not anything that is forced onto them. I'll stop you in advance before you or anyone else tries to argue that "Rydia had Bio!" and that how that was somehow justification to build FFXIV's Summoner around that with our Summons being an afterthought until Stormblood.

The main gimmick is and has always been summon magic, regardless of how it functions. I play Summoner in FFXI not because I stand there waiting for their auto-attacks to chip away the enemy's HP, because literally all auto-attacks do this, my main satisfaction there comes from Bloodpacts that take huge gaps of HP away whenever they land, and I like the support effects they can do. I can also swap summons mid-battle as the situation demands. If I want to play a dot class in that game, Scholar fills that niche better than Summoner ever could.

I'm certainly not defending the lack of things to do, but injecting irrelevant abilities like Bio or Miasma back would do nothing for the job's namesake. They are, and would always have been, better off on another class. Scholar is the obvious choice for these abilities, along with Fester and Bane, though if some version of them were given to a dark-themed caster then it would also be more fitting.

There's more potential for additions and tweaks in this state than the previous. We may not get Shiva for lore reasons, but Fenrir is the same element. Looking at the lead up to UT, there's reason to believe we too could learn more summons. They're doing a lot of work to have things in a better state to receive additions in the future. I'm interested in where this could lead, but it seems I'm alone in that.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

There's more potential for additions and tweaks in this state than the previous. We may not get Shiva for lore reasons, but Fenrir is the same element. Looking at the lead up to UT, there's reason to believe we too could learn more summons. They're doing a lot of work to have things in a better state to receive additions in the future. I'm interested in where this could lead, but it seems I'm alone in that.

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You aren't alone in this at all, it's moreso that people's patience by this point has been worn away at for a number of reasons. We all agree that the job is not where it should be, but no one is in agreement as to what direction to take it in. For myself I refuse to let voices that even hint at favoring reversions go unchallenged, and I will forever maintain that Shadowbringers Summoner was in too compromised of a state to build upon further.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how Shadowbringers Summoner could have received new abilities? Because I sure don't. Bonus points to anyone who can figure out how to incorporate another Summon into that kit.

Since sch and smn are both branched off arcanist, a job that has shown up once before. Incidentally revolving around draining and dark. I wonder how best to convey draining as a gameplay element in such a way that matters but also doesn’t make it completely immortal (see WAR).

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Since sch and smn are both branched off arcanist, a job that has shown up once before. Incidentally revolving around draining and dark. I wonder how best to convey draining as a gameplay element in such a way that matters but also doesn’t make it completely immortal (see WAR).

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Base classes should in no way supercede the core fantasy of the job. Dragoons should not be more lancers than they are dragoons and Black Mages should not be more Thaumaturges than they are Black Mages. I already told you that mixing these identities together produced an unsatisfactory result for all involved. There is no situation that I can think of in which "Arcanist" should ever be permitted to reign dominant over Summoner.

Those who want dark and draining magic should by every right be better off with Necromancer, and be content with that rather than continuing to pine over Summoner. In all the time that has passed since 6.0 I cannot recall a single one of these individuals putting forth a job concept for Necromancer and instead they insist on trying to wrench back control of Summoner, despite overwhelming opposition to such a direction for *this* job - which is not to say that by consequence that those of us who oppose reversions are fully satisfied with a kit that is missing too much.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

[*]How few hardcasts there are/minute. I’m a caster, not a physical ranged.

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On the other hand the mobility does make SMN a bit more unique, I don't think spellcasters necessarily need to be hardcasting things.
Personally tho I do prefer it, to me hardcasting just feels better for spellcasters altho then again I actually liked '' Bowmage '' lol.

If SMN was to have this level of mobility tho then I think it could be tied to the Summons in a more direct way instead where it's the Summons doing the damage and you're commanding them.
But I kinda don't like the idea either that we need to be so tied down to these more generic ways of looking at role identity where casters need to be the hardcasters and physical ranged don't cast anything.
Some people say the same too about melee with things like Iajutsu but I think it's something that sets it apart from other melee and is fun.
I actually would find a melee that casted most of its skills pretty interesting too.
I don't think SMN not needing to hardcast is in and of itself a problem rly, however I still do think that either it could be tied to what I said about commanding the Summons or to specific Summons like Garuda.

Imo I kinda wish that you instead generated a resource that you spent on Summons, and that way if you knew a part was coming up with heavy movement soon you could save it for Garuda for example.
I suppose the question would be what to do with the others.
I mean give Titan defensive capabilities?
I think you'd end up in a scenario like Rekindle, I don't think you should have utility essentially be held hostage like that behind damage.
I don't think we'd end up using it to begin with if it came at the sacrifice of damage, but maybe some kind of longer buff to keep up or something and then Ifrit for the biggest damage Summon.

They will never add necromancer because china. We have heard this from the horse’s mouth. Now stop telling me that I’m not allowed to consider the summoner from the last eight years a summoner, that’s just absurd.

I’m still unconvinced, especially with the dearth of ogcds to do anything with. At least cast times would fill that up a bit. I think we have arrived back at the point that the summons are entirely insubstantial. I am unconvinced that defensive utility on titan would be the way to go, if it’s good enough to matter then it’s too useful for the current design philosophy and if it doesn’t then it’s just flavouring. I think the one/two/many target speciality of the egis worked well enough to distinguish between them, even if two was hardly worth it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You aren't alone in this at all, it's moreso that people's patience by this point has been worn away at for a number of reasons. We all agree that the job is not where it should be, but no one is in agreement as to what direction to take it in. For myself I refuse to let voices that even hint at favoring reversions go unchallenged, and I will forever maintain that Shadowbringers Summoner was in too compromised of a state to build upon further.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how Shadowbringers Summoner could have received new abilities? Because I sure don't. Bonus points to anyone who can figure out how to incorporate another Summon into that kit.

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I would agree that the new Summoner has a better flavor and identity, though I am sad to see dots be removed, seeing as now no class uses them as more then just a timer now.

But, I would challenge you on this point; you say that Shadowbringers summoner had no room to grow with new abilities. But, neither does Endwalker summoner. They have the two main Demis and the three gemstones in between. So how could they possibly add new summons? Make it so Ifrit becomes Ramuh or whatever at 92? I can't see how that could even begin to work. They've made an extremely static, on-rails rotation with zero room to grow, both in terms of learning the job, and in terms of future job expansion.