6.2 Hrothgar Update

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Originally Posted by XiRon

"mmm guys expending effort might make this take another eternity :/"

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This is what I was getting to with my criticisms toward the other two stooges a while back.

They had years to prepare, gather feedback and information and design hairstyles that fit Hrothgar. They did not.
They wrote it on their calendars that they had to give something to Hrothgars by 6.1. A thing that some people even pointed out got delayed (I have no sources though, would appreciate if people could link me to that).
They had ample time, and what they gave us on April 1st of 2022, April Fool's day, was easily the most cringeworthy low-effort meme s**tpost things I've ever seen. So poor, in fact, the dev team were giggling all throughout and the rest of the community agreed was not acceptable.
A reaction they weren't expecting, apparently. Despite the majority of the community finding it awful. Are you really telling me that in an entire office, not a single one thought it looked in bad taste? When millions of fans voiced their displeasure?
And that to do them, they needed to stretch them beyond belief and causing Peanut-Shaped Skulls and a complete removal of our ears.
So you mean to tell me a team that plans in advance, simply throws us bad copy-pasted content from another race with restrictions to make it easier? And that they can't afford to now prepare and act accordingly?

I made a feedback thread so they could understand why Hrothgar feel such outrage and why the community reacted poorly to their announcement. So that they can better orient and prepare accordingly. Not to randomly "acquiesce to our every demand", but to treat Hrothgars with respect and make quality content. One that won't garner such a horrible response. So they could reconsider, and make quality stuff in the future.

When they make furniture and hairstyles for other races without a lick of problems, doing the same for Hrothgars should not come with such a lazy response as "It will take a lot of time". It should take as much time as it has to. People clearly want it, far more than anyone asked for the Fellowship System, so get to it.

Time to really spare no expense.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

This is what I was getting to with my criticisms toward the other two stooges a while back.

They had years to prepare, gather feedback and information and design hairstyles that fit Hrothgar. They did not.
They wrote it on their calendars that they had to give something to Hrothgars by 6.1. A thing that some people even pointed out got delayed (I have no sources though, would appreciate if people could link me to that).
They had ample time, and what they gave us on April 1st of 2022, April Fool's day, was easily the most cringeworthy low-effort meme s**tpost things I've ever seen. So poor, in fact, the dev team were giggling all throughout and the rest of the community agreed was not acceptable.
A reaction they weren't expecting, apparently. Despite the majority of the community finding it awful. Are you really telling me that in an entire office, not a single one thought it looked in bad taste? When millions of fans voiced their displeasure?
And that to do them, they needed to stretch them beyond belief and causing Peanut-Shaped Skulls and a complete removal of our ears.
So you mean to tell me a team that plans in advance, simply throws us bad copy-pasted content from another race with restrictions to make it easier? And that they can't afford to now prepare and act accordingly?

I made a feedback thread so they could understand why Hrothgar feel such outrage and why the community reacted poorly to their announcement. So that they can better orient and prepare accordingly. Not to randomly "acquiesce to our every demand", but to treat Hrothgars with respect and make quality content. One that won't garner such a horrible response. So they could reconsider, and make quality stuff in the future.

When they make furniture and hairstyles for other races without a lick of problems, doing the same for Hrothgars should not come with such a lazy response as "It will take a lot of time". It should take as much time as it has to. People clearly want it, far more than anyone asked for the Fellowship System, so get to it.

Time to really spare no expense.

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Very, very well said.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The logical way in which the Hrothgar race could have been implemented without the chaos that later ensued is the following:

- *1* base round head shape that can accommodate the various in-game hairstyles and 4 unique faces for that head shape
- No hunchback
- The highlander build which generally looks better in armor due to no stretching of textures
- More expressive eyes
- Eyebrows for more than just one face (and from what I understand those eyebrows were only added at some point during Endwalker)
- No genderlocks and releases at the same time as the female variant

The result of this would have been a far less controversial product that strikes a good balance between catering to beast-race enjoyers and the otherwise anime style loving FFXIV crowd. The drama that erupted over gender locks and stereotypical "male" vs "female" races would have also been avoided. However, instead of choosing the logically sound option, a wrong turn was chosen at every other juncture. For what reasons, no one can say, all I know is it resulted in widespread unhappiness, frustration, and anger on all sides..

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This exactly. There were many better ways to go about making this race, and they fumbled the bag at every turn. Now they gotta lay in the watery poopy sheets they made when they shat the bed on this race. The only saving grace for me is the hope and assumption that they learned from this when it comes to the females.

That being said, I completely understand why they can't go back and fix the dudes like people want. It's like not getting off at the right exit or getting on the wrong express train ... can't really just rip a U-turn, gonna have to ride this one out, you're not getting that time back.

At this point I'd already be happy if they'd adopt the code from modders even if only I can see the headgear. That would at least be something.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

At this point I'd already be happy if they'd adopt the code from modders even if only I can see the headgear. That would at least be something.

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If they adopt the code from modders, everyone would be able to see it. Sharing the appearance with others has never been the issue. Everything is on the client and the only reason people can't see your mods is because they don't have it installed.

The reason they can't implement the code is because they have some limitations and clipping aversion they didn't really ever elaborate on.

They ain't fixing ur furry race, so stop complaining or go back to Vulperra.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

This exactly. There were many better ways to go about making this race, and they fumbled the bag at every turn. Now they gotta lay in the watery poopy sheets they made when they shat the bed on this race.

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The only issue with that is that they had 3 years to realize they needed to do that. And they just dug themselves a deeper hole. They knew the race was in the proverbial crapper, and they just decided to ram it further down the drain. Because the impromptu ear surgery they gave us and the head squashing a) doesn't fix anything, b) actually makes the situation a lot worse because now you have awkward code in the way of a proper fix, and c) opens up a precedent for them to be lazy with these things. And if it can happen with us, how far will they then push for similar on the other races? Because yeah, it's easy to think "Oh, it's just Hrothgar now because they're the hardest to design for", but if we're not careful (and with how many people actually defend this mess), we'll see them cut corners on other races or other content.

It's why it's important to set your foot down.

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

The only saving grace for me is the hope and assumption that they learned from this when it comes to the females.

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That's the thing, isn't it? :T

I hope they've finally seen what the Hrothgar playerbase and the rest of the community thinks about their methods. Not just for the males, but so that female Hrothgar doesn't get thrown into the drain before release.

But given how Male Viera were released, my hopes are in the pipe with the rest of the race.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

If they adopt the code from modders, everyone would be able to see it. Sharing the appearance with others has never been the issue. Everything is on the client and the only reason people can't see your mods is because they don't have it installed.

The reason they can't implement the code is because they have some limitations and clipping aversion they didn't really ever elaborate on.

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Something something quality control and their own set of rules, think of low-end PCs, something something. I honestly even think at least half of the 3rd party tools people use aren't heavy anyway, so they could take a few hints.
But they never will, because pride or something.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

> clipping aversion

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Endsinger's hair.

The final boss of the whole saga has hair locks clipping through themselves on her idle pose.

And that's not even getting into the VERY NOTICEABLE clipping in cutscenes.

Proper Hrothgar content? "Nah fam".
Animating sugar cubes and Miqo'te Ears? "THAT'S THE SH*T"

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

They ain't fixing ur furry race, so stop complaining or go back to Vulperra.

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Hello WoWfugee, the WoW cesspit is over here, you got yourself lost. Stop gatekeeping.

Let it be known the community is easily the worst part of being a Hrothgar. And I blame Square Enix for every second of it.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

They ain't fixing ur furry race, so stop complaining or go back to Vulperra.

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Cool story bro.

They can't just do what modders do because they are limited by the engine on everything server-side. Fixing things like this probably IS difficult for the people who need to make sure everything runs with the engine and is optimized. I don't know how the game's engine operates exactly but by all accounts it is Lovecraftian in its horrors.

That said...

It's past time the Hrothgar got some love. It's been years at this point. They need to figure things out.

This is an entire playable race that misses out on unlockable hairstyles which are fun rewards for most players to target and they miss out on most hats which is a shame since holidays often only reward head pieces. This is made worse by the fact that there is no account progression in the game. It's not like you can learn a hat appearance or a hairstyle on a Hrothgar and unlock it for alts. Hats and hairstyles are just meaningless unless you pay real money to race change out of Hrothgar.

It's really a shame since when Hrothgar were announced and SE mentioned they wouldn't have hats/hairstyles they said they would get more customization options to compensate but that didn't really happen. Viera are in a similar position but they have had more work done on them and hairstyles are added to them more easily (They still deserve hats though)

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

They can't just do what modders do because they are limited by the engine on everything server-side.

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There's nothing server-side. Whether your ears are showing, or your hat is being hidden, your character data is the exact same. Which is the reason why mods are able to display incompatible Hrothgar/Viera hats even on other players.
Mods don't exist in a different reality than the game. They say they can't implement those not because of a technical impossibility in a vacuum but because they don't want to for various reasons.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

There's nothing server-side. Whether your ears are showing, or your hat is being hidden, your character data is the exact same. Which is the reason why mods are able to display incompatible Hrothgar/Viera hats even on other players.
Mods don't exist in a different reality than the game. They say they can't implement those not because of a technical impossibility in a vacuum but because they don't want to for various reasons.

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What Kazhar said. Everything about your character on the server is just text saying "ON\OFF" and "option 1, 2". It's not rendered in the server at all, your PC does all the work. It's what we call "client-side", and it's why mods only work on the computer of the person using them and not on the people affected.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

They can't just do what modders do because they are limited by the engine on everything server-side. Fixing things like this probably IS difficult for the people who need to make sure everything runs with the engine and is optimized. I don't know how the game's engine operates exactly but by all accounts it is Lovecraftian in its horrors.

That said...

It's past time the Hrothgar got some love. It's been years at this point. They need to figure things out.

This is an entire playable race that misses out on unlockable hairstyles which are fun rewards for most players to target and they miss out on most hats which is a shame since holidays often only reward head pieces. This is made worse by the fact that there is no account progression in the game. It's not like you can learn a hat appearance or a hairstyle on a Hrothgar and unlock it for alts. Hats and hairstyles are just meaningless unless you pay real money to race change out of Hrothgar.

It's really a shame since when Hrothgar were announced and SE mentioned they wouldn't have hats/hairstyles they said they would get more customization options to compensate but that didn't really happen. Viera are in a similar position but they have had more work done on them and hairstyles are added to them more easily (They still deserve hats though)

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oh my god why do you guys always believe server side matters when it comes to graphics.

it's the most infuriating parts of these threads. there is nothing and i mean NOTHING server-side when it comes to displaying ANYTHING. the servers likely don't even have a graphical user interface. it'd be such a waste of resources if they did.

everything you see in-game is what your computer is told to display by the server. that's it. it says "hey, this person is a white and grey furred hrothgar wearing the radiant's fending set" and your PC/the engine on your machine is what actually shows the graphics. it would be an utterly ABSURD waste of resources to send literal graphical information over the internet. in fact in terms of data sent/received, FFXIV is extremely light. i was playing on mobile data and it used approximately 50-60MB of data over the course of 3-4 hours. that's all.

i'm sorry to be blunt but every 3-4 pages of threads like this there's someone who comes flying in saying UM AHCKSHULLY THE SERVER CAN'T HANDLE IT and it's just so entirely clear they've never actually looked into it or checked it for themselves and are just talking out their ass.

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Originally Posted by Denji

oh my god why do you guys always believe server side matters when it comes to graphics.

it's the most infuriating parts of these threads. there is nothing and i mean NOTHING server-side when it comes to displaying ANYTHING. the servers likely don't even have a graphical user interface. it'd be such a waste of resources if they did.

everything you see in-game is what your computer is told to display by the server. that's it. it says "hey, this person is a white and grey furred hrothgar wearing the radiant's fending set" and your PC/the engine on your machine is what actually shows the graphics. it would be an utterly ABSURD waste of resources to send literal graphical information over the internet. in fact in terms of data sent/received, FFXIV is extremely light. i was playing on mobile data and it used approximately 50-60MB of data over the course of 3-4 hours. that's all.

i'm sorry to be blunt but every 3-4 pages of threads like this there's someone who comes flying in saying UM AHCKSHULLY THE SERVER CAN'T HANDLE IT and it's just so entirely clear they've never actually looked into it or checked it for themselves and are just talking out their ass.

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I said limited by the engine, not the server (A better way to say that would be anything live on the server has to be engine compatible... but I didn't say that). Something about the way the game allocates data is very weird.

But this seems to be an excuse for everything: Inventory, character customization, glamour systems... It took forever for them to let us queue with our chocobos out for some reason...

The whole thing needs a fix if we're really going to be in this for the long haul. Ten more years of these limitations will be very rough.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I said limited by the engine, not the server (A better way to say that would be anything live on the server has to be engine compatible). Something about the way the engine allocates data is very weird.

But this seems to be an excuse for everything: Inventory, character customization, glamour systems... It took forever for them to let us queue with our chocobos out for some reason...

The whole thing needs a fix if we're really going to be in this for the long haul. Ten more years of these limitations will be very rough.

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you absolutely did not say that. stop trying to save face.

also, there is no limitation. otherwise modders wouldn't be able to do it. we -know the reason-. the heads simply weren't designed correctly for some of face choices and it would've required more than a day's work to fix it to work properly so that the ears would appear without clipping through some of the hairstyles.

modders can get them in - they got them in before the game even came back up. there are no resource constrains caused by them. in fact, viera ears take so many more resources than hrothgars entire body/model because hrothgars are just roes with a slouch.

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They can't just do what modders do because they are limited by the engine on everything server-side

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That is what I said, literally.

But it's a moot point. Whether there are limitations on devs that are not there on modders or not I agree that Hrothgar need hats and hairstyles.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

They ain't fixing ur furry race, so stop complaining or go back to Vulperra.

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https://c.tenor.com/aCVUT0x9WdoAAAAC/kizuna-vtuber.gif

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Snipped like my ears

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The thing is. It's just incorrect. Mods are Client-Side. Yes. As is your graphics settings... Your character model. All of the models, textures, meshes, bumpmaps. G-shade shaders. Your graphics card's potential. Everything is clientside. Because in that FFXIV game file is a bunch of Indices with all of this information. This is how datamining works. And thanks to that. We know how modding and such works. If people had never datamined xiv as much as they did, we would have likely never had mods because we wouldn't have figured out how it all works. Etc. Every time you spawn in, the server tells the game 'Display Au Ra with Hair X, Face Y, Other Attributes A through G and then Gearpieces H through R.' Your game client and your graphics card are what render that information from bits to visual models.

This is something that can be fixed with some slight METADATA changes (Binary Yes/No coding) and some model tweaks. This is something that, as stated in quite a few forum threads now. Has been done by one person in a single stream. A single person. Not even using new models, just simply adjusting the models we already have in game. With that they were able to enable all hats for viera and hrothgar. Yes there's clipping. But... Why should we care? I'd be happy to just be able to wear a top hat or a fedora to look snazzy as all hell. But I can't. Because SE rushed Hrothgar to begin with and have showed almost no inclination of wanting to actually make a beneficial change for a race that has been begging for it for years. Instead... I guess more earsocks for lalafell.

This is nothing to do with the engine. This is nothing to do with data allocation. This is something which. Every copy of the game has, even PS4 and PS5 copies. They all have this root data. All that these modifications do is change this root data, whether it be 'SHOWMIQOTEEARS' being on or off, which. As the name says determines if ANY ears just clip through. Hell, as stated in another post, the reason why the new hrothgar hairstyles hide the ears is because they're treated like headwear and have the 'SHOWMIQOTEEARS' metadata string as OFF.

The only thing that the server struggles to do for some reason is placing Glamour dressers in player housing. It apparently crashed an entire dev server or something like that.

Yes, I know all of that. I do remain skeptical that there are not challenges on SE's side we don't know about, given how often they bemoan technical issues.

I am a game designer and know how this stuff works, but not their specific challenges so I am still talking blindly. As a designer I wouldn't want people to think me not doing something was due to, say, laziness. I mean maybe it isn't a technical limitation but a pipeline one, getting someone to do the work, getting it into QA etc. They certainly talk like this is a non-trivial issue.

As for how modding works, I do not mod. Never have. So if I have implied anything about what mods do I am talking out my other end, I am not in that community.

Again though, and I want to make this VERY clear: I am saying all of this to indicate possible explanations for the delay and NOT as an excuse. It is long past time for Hrothgar and Viera to get their hats and hairstyles.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

At this point I'd already be happy if they'd adopt the code from modders even if only I can see the headgear. That would at least be something.

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No. No, no, no. I am not settling. This is crap. The way this has gone down is crap. I’m not settling for crap.

I do not want ears on my crappy Whitney Houston haircut. I do not want my ears attached to my skull. I do not want to wait three more years for garbage that only shows me how haphazardly Hrothgar were crammed into the game, built off a jacked-up Roe model. The original spec for Hrothgar involved things like highlights in our tails and stuff. We’re in beta, prioritize a damned overhaul.

The Snow haircut doesn’t look “sort of OK” to me. It looks like it’s one bloodstain away from me taking a shot to the head hard enough basic arithmetic or remembering where my car keys are is going to seem like ESP.

And, frankly, as things are right now they *can’t fix it, because the form factors of the skulls vary wildly. Also, I don’t have the Snow haircut because “We’re introducing 6 haircuts after 3 years, oh by the way one costs $10” because “$10 haircut” be should enough to give you a PTSD flashback.

This isn’t that Hrothgar are hated - we got our own zone of the game. And you can say “representation.” and I’ll agree - but Square didn’t owe us representation. They don’t owe us plot involvement. Or Hrothgar housing NPCs. “Not doing work” doesn’t mean hatred. It means it’s hard and they put us off. Again. Speaking of, Queen damned Gunnhildr is a Femroe? The head of the Hrothgar is a Roegadyn? What the hell’d you do, shave her? Is she on chemotherapy? Can I start a Kickstarter to put her on Hrogaine or something?

They do, however, owe me a damned haircut. Not only because they promised one, then forgot about it until the Zella video, but because every other race gets to pick ears and hair, etc. Viera had 68 skull/hair/ear combos at launch.

Hrothgar had 8.

This isn’t “hatred.” It’s neglect.

-Kelly

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Originally Posted by XiRon

Hrothgar can wear glasses and circlets by the magic of telepathy I don't think "fictional ear discomfort" should matter. I see miqote wearing the calfskin rider cap all the damn time theres no reason hrothgar would be less comfortable in a hat when their ears are smaller, especially not in some of the bigger hat like the flat cap or the lv.60 ast witch hat.

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Those aren't even remotely comparable. One just "looks" goofy and the other looks flat out anatomically uncomfortable and impeding.
And I mentioned I don't think Miqo'te should be having their ears flattened either.

I thought the point of these countless Hrothgar complaints was to have SE treat the race with more respect? So what, you guys would rather they keep half-assing gear design for races with animal ears by IGNORING the ears completely?

Have fun then chaps. Sometimes I forget this is the community that saw the ARR dungeons join the fray of faceroll hallway sims and then clapped.

Wouldn't it be something if they took all of this feedback and out came something 10 times worse then that Karen haircut you all got?

Not to poke fun but I just feel bad for you all at this point.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Wouldn't it be something if they took all of this feedback and out came something 10 times worse then that Karen haircut you all got?

Not to poke fun but I just feel bad for you all at this point.

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I'm honestly not sure if there is a single haircut that look worse on Hrothgar than the Karen one, ears or not.
I just expect them to pretend we don't exist for a few more years. They got really good at this during Shadowbringers.

Kupo, climb up past the developer ladder to where the $$ flows if you wish to point blame. kupo <3

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Originally Posted by Doc_Seraph

Kupo, climb up past the developer ladder to where the $$ flows if you wish to point blame. kupo <3

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I think when people say dev, they include the entire management. Not the workers who probably didn't get a say in the matter (and even worked behind Yoshi-P's back to give us glasses... which tells us a lot about the identity of the man who isn't interested in giving us basic glamour options).

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Originally Posted by Denji

i'm sorry to be blunt ... someone ...THE SERVER CAN'T HANDLE IT ... are just talking out their ass.

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This is not true. While the server is not involved in the raster operations, the server's certainly involved in character display. Here's why:

Imagine:

1) I had a Hrothgar with highlights in my tail, and custom fur patterns and all sorts of eyebrow selections. All of that data has to live somewhere. If it didn't, then I'd be able to do things like look differently to other people by playing on a different machine. Some data like gearsets does live client-side, but if I could do things like display arbitrarily complex faces, there wouldn't be that limitation. So that's a storage issue that lives on a server. Can't tell you if that's the limit that's important, can tell you that logically, that lives at Square.

2) When you see me in game, your client doesn't take my word for it. You're making a call to a server, which is sending a packet of information containing my entire identity to you. The only other way of doing that would be for me to send it to you peer-to-peer, which would mean that people who have bad internet would show up more slowly than people who don't, and create a holy host of security issues. Since all of the bones I have are alterable by things my height, etc, it stands to reason there's a limitation somewhere that if I sent you a jumbo packet that operation performed every time I see someone new in Limsa would be a lot of data - not for you, but for the server. So the low data usage you're talking about actually points to the server being the limitation. Your client doesn't care because it's chump change to it.

3) If the server were not involved, you wouldn't see re-use between models. As I've said, Hrothgar tail length is re-used from the Roe musculature. If the footprint - network or storage - were unimportant, that data would be a new variable, and we might get a tail length AND a muscle slider. We wouldn't lose bones from our ears when things got added to our jaws, tails and whiskers. This indicates that there is a limitation on model complexity, and since modders can change that, that limitation isn't client-side.

So, unfortunately, the server is involved, either from a network or storage standpoint. There's simply no other explanation for it. And while you are correct, interpretation of that data is client-side, otherwise you couldn't change things like screen resolution, the actual communication of my character has to be sent from an authoritative source - and there's only one of those.

So, who's that guy jumpin' in saying the server's involved?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...25/unknown.png

Dis guy. And I have looked into it. A bunch. I've spent the last three months trying to figure out why it's so hard, because YoshiP ain't so forthcoming with the "whys" of things.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Those aren't even remotely comparable. One just "looks" goofy and the other looks flat out anatomically uncomfortable and impeding.
And I mentioned I don't think Miqo'te should be having their ears flattened either.

I thought the point of these countless Hrothgar complaints was to have SE treat the race with more respect? So what, you guys would rather they keep half-assing gear design for races with animal ears by IGNORING the ears completely?

Have fun then chaps. Sometimes I forget this is the community that saw the ARR dungeons join the fray of faceroll hallway sims and then clapped.

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Well to begin with in order for them to HALF-ass something there would have to be an ass in the first place. There is 0% ass here.
Secondly, "uncomfortable" is up to PLAYER and how they interpret their character. You are arguing an entire gear slot shouldn't work because you don't think players should have the option to say "I like this on my scrimbly wolbo" and that is crap.

I. Want. The. Gear. Slot. To. Function.
If something looks awkward or whatever I can use that handydandy hat toggle hrothgar and viera have thus far 0 reason to have on their character page to begin with. "Impending" girl there are dozens of facemasks, eyepatches etc that do nothing to impede my ability to assault enemies. You are arguing discomfort or impediment that as far as gameplay is concerned does not exist. Nobody in the game has trouble casting spells if they have some kinda mask over their mouth wtf is the point of your argument here? Just to coddle the devs so in 2 weeks Yoship can say "oh well realistically in my fantasy game wherein you punch the physical manifestation of being sad in the throat viera or hrothgar might feel uncomfy wear a trilby :-/ so thats why yet more gear doesn't exist on your models pls to be understanding"?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

I'm honestly not sure if there is a single haircut that look worse on Hrothgar than the Karen one, ears or not.
I just expect them to pretend we don't exist for a few more years. They got really good at this during Shadowbringers.

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If they don't say jack during either 6.2 PLL we know we ain't getting shit the rest of the expansion so mark your calendars and prepare to be forgotten once again

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Originally Posted by XiRon

If they don't say jack during either 6.2 PLL we know we ain't getting shit the rest of the expansion so mark your calendars and prepare to be forgotten once again

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I'll one-up you.

If you noticed for the three PLLs before Viera hair got released, we saw concept sketches, prototypes, even Yoshida saying "So you can see this hair is so pretty, you can tell we've been working hard to get it out the door."

Meanwhile in Hrothgar-land?

"Hrothgar are going to have to be patient, you'll see in 6.1"
"Hrothgar hair is coming."
"We need more time to research Hrothgar hair."

But never a plan. Or a picture. Just we're working on it. Be patient.

So if you don't see prototypes, and mockups, and a discussion as to what they did? Say, some details other than "You have to think of the ears as inside the hair," and then not even showing us one profile view? Xi, the patch notes were incorrect - it said the two hairdos (which they never showed us the sides of) would be available at any point from the aesthetician or fantasia. But they weren't. One was. One wasn't. There was so incredibly little effort, they didn't even check that part.

Have you ever noticed when something is hard, Yoshida spends a little time explaining why it's difficult? Why it is that these things require dedication and time and resources? Have you noticed when these forum topics come up, people don't have to rely on drooling brutes like me to explain software-development issues, and I "get" to spend page after page explaining why it is that this must, from a development standpoint, suck to deal with? That's because when they've done their impact analysis, they tell us.

No effort was made to educate us. No explanation was given. No time was spent researching what the player base wanted.

So mark my words: If there's no more than 60s spent saying "Yeah, we're working on it," and no pictures/prototypes, and no attempt at explaining why this is hard, and what the game plan is?

Woe betide.

-Kelly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

There's nothing server-side.

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While you are correct that the sentence "They can't do what modders do because they are limited by the engine on everything server-side" is non-sensical, there's plenty server side going on. Why on earth would you design one race with ears attached, and static, when every other race in the game doesn't have that? A friend of mine sent me these pictures - don't ask me where they came from, I don't mod, to a large extent because I want Square to FIX. IT., I don't advocate third-party tools, and I'm not smart enough to do this - in fact, I'm barely housebroken. Also, would love it if my account didn't get banned.

But here's a Viera noggin:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...00/unknown.png

And here's a Hrothgar:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...68/unknown.png

Why, if we weren't missing ear bones would they have ears attached unlike every other race in the game? Why, if there weren't a server-side limitation, either network, or storage, would that be the case?

Don't get me wrong, it's not "technically impossible" - but it is hard, and will require re-factoring the models, or doing performance testing, or augmenting storage or something. So there are certainly server-side issues as well as the client-side issues such as clipping.

When I say "the problem is hard" that's because Hrothgar have a lot of moving parts to them.

So, the problem is hard, because you have client, network, race-design, data storage, and character customization issues all in one tidy little package. In other words, a mess.

And again, so that we are all really, really clear about WHOSE SIDE KELLY IS ON, this is not acceptable, and it's indicative of them not fixing Hrothgar correctly in three years. Adding hair and hats and physics to Viera is relatively trivial by comparison by two design decisions - all Hrothgar skull geometries are different, and there aren't enough bones.

That's why I keep saying "Hrothgar are in beta." We are living, breathing prototypes who were never standardized, which isn't bad, but when you monkey with something after it's out, there are a lot of ramifications to doing so. As a matter of fact, while I've listed a lot of reasons why this is hard, I do not, for one second think I know all of the issues with which they're going to have to deal. Dealing with the impact analysis and problem domain alone is beyond my ability, not to mention actually implementing such a thing.

We were never future-proofed, or even finished for that matter, and that's why we're so damned hard to rev or evolve. Hrothgar and Viera get lumped into the same bucket, but we're not even remotely the same from a technical standpoint.

-Kelly

Hrothgar aren't in beta. They were meant to be one and done: NO updates. It wouldn't matter how convoluted the process of their creation is, if they were never meant to get further updated.

This is a message to readers of the thread here:

I want to make sure my motivations are very, very clear here. I am not smart. I am not a software developer (I was in DevOps for many years, which is like software development for the self-loathing). I do not work for Square.

We recently lost a Hrothgar on Aether, a super nice guy. We had a memorial for him, and 75 gignormous cats, and a bunch of supporters showed up to tell him goodbye. It was one of the most moving things I've ever seen in a videogame.

I love the Hrothgar. I love the Aether community, we're a pretty tight-knit bunch, and even at 43 the sense of social belonging and camaraderie have helped me and a lot of others through a pandemic, nasty social climates, mental illness, substance abuse, and bone-crushing loneliness.

And while I will jump in to weigh in on what people are saying, and will as patiently as I can (I'm human too, and sick, and I get mad like everyone else) explain why it is that this problem isn't as simple as adopting modder code, or adding bones, or flipping flags, and I will explain passionately (but I hope politely) why it is that I'm this astonishingly angry, which isn't the hairstyles. Or hats. Or Queen Gunnhildr The Cop-Out.

It's that all of you, even the ones I don't know real well, in game or out are worth my time. And you are worth having the problem explained to you correctly. So that while I cannot fix your issue here, and that our "Community Representatives" who rarely, if ever weigh in, certainly never do twice. And even if no one at Square gave enough of a darn about you to even say "Yeah, we heard you?"

I did. And you guys did too.

So, please don't think for a minute me disagreeing with any one of you on a technical level is "Me > you." It's not that you're dumb for asking. Or putting your opinions up here.

And if I'm not communicating this in how thought-out and researched my posts are? Please let me say it explicitly here: You all deserve that respect and my time.

-Kelly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Hrothgar aren't in beta. They were meant to be one and done: NO updates. It wouldn't matter how convoluted the process of their creation is, if they were never meant to get further updated.

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I have a rebuttal:

No.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0/IMG_0817.png

Please let me know if you have a reply to this. Love to hear it.

-Kelly

Thank you to the people explaining server stuff better than I could as a lazy inarticulate weirdo. Limitations imposed by the server is one of those things that always makes sense in my head but I can never quite put in words.

I have severe ADHD though so my brain goes a million miles an hour, I lose patience with trying to put that into writing, and bleat out something that I hope approximates what I mean. I'm less bad about this in professional settings.

....At least I'm not explaining it out loud.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelev

I have a rebuttal:

No.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0/IMG_0817.png

Please let me know if you have a reply to this. Love to hear it.

-Kelly

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure Yoshida said he never said that. There should be a quote of it around here somewhere. ;) Saying that they weren't going to get any hairs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Yoshida said he never said that. There should be a quote of it around here somewhere. ;)

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Aka "This makes us look bad so I'm going to feign ignorance!" :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Aka "This makes us look bad so I'm going to feign ignorance!" :p

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I wonder if he honestly does ever remember saying that? Hrothgars probably aren't really thought about too often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I wonder if he honestly does ever remember ever saying that? Hrothgars probably aren't really thought about too often.

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He's an intelligent man. If he doesn't remember, that honestly doesn't make the situation any better. Quite the opposite really if they forget about them all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Yoshida said he never said that. There should be a quote of it around here somewhere. ;) Saying that they weren't going to get any hairs.

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Here's the image from our community rep:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

And here's the link I got it from:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Thread/page4

That's from a community rep on this forum, so the official translation.

Please let me know if you have a reply. I'd love to hear it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

...they forget about them all the time.

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but that blu mage weapon after many years is totally gonna be awesome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kelev

Here's the image from our community rep:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...18/unknown.png

And here's the link I got it from:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...e-Thread/page4

That's from a community rep on this forum, so the official translation.

Please let me know if you have a reply. I'd love to hear it.

---

Yeah, and I'm telling you there is a quote, it should be in the big hrothgar thread, of Yoshida saying he said they weren't going to get any hairs, and I am also pretty sure they might have said what you are showing was a "mistranslation" - at least that's what people were saying.