Why not a warning?

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Then it's "We will ban you but in a year we will add feature you used into a game, have fun" type of situation. You seem didnt even read what i wrote about Yoshi P and also about GMs, you basically defend people who abuse report system and lie in reports.

Casuals that are not even getting harrased by anyone abuse mass reports and pretend victims of .... UI mod?

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But if it's against the rules, it's still against the rules. Mass reporting anyone is not inherently wrong if it is justified. You can't just mass report anyone for anything and get them banned.

If I shout in town and say "The sky is green ya'll" and everyone mass reported me for saying that, do you think I would get sent to in-game jail for that? No I would not, and the odds are the people reporting in THAT situation would get in trouble for frivolous report abuse.

In this case, a user is caught in 4k using UI/Mod enhancements (according to the GM) during a highly stream event. If there is no legitimate case, GMs will do nothing. But if someone is reported, EVEN 1 REPORT is looked into and is found factual, then yes SE will act.

That's not hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

I don't blame them at all when SE turns around and decides to add the very thing they banned the person for. If it's a banable offence then why are you adding it to the game?

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Do you know what they are planning to add into the game? Because I have not seen any official comment on what particular modification they have reviewed and WOULD be adding.

It does not matter. If it's against the ToS today, you can get banned for it.

People have weird interpretations of what the ToS is and takes like this are straight bogus.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

"But you knew the risk" Shut up, your precious leader Yoshida has taken a neutral stance on this matter for far too long to act like he's got a spine now.

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Sorry but what's neutral about him saying "Don't do it"? I swear it's like alot of you folks haven't grown up. Rules are rules. You are at the mercy of the rule makers. They can ban you for anything they deem fit. You don't have to like it but those are the facts. Indeed, you DO know the risk. Stop acting like those breaking the rules aren't at fault. I'll say it again, they've been playing with fire this whole time n got burnt.

I hope people realize that these bans are the result of mass reporting from 5ch mobs.

But I must say that a lot of people in this thread will probably form a 4chan mob if given the opportunity too.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Sorry but what's neutral about him saying "Don't do it"? I swear it's like alot of you folks haven't grown up. Rules are rules. You are at the mercy of the rule makers. They can ban you for anything they deem fit. You don't have to like it but those are the facts. Indeed, you DO know the risk. Stop acting like those breaking the rules aren't at fault. I'll say it again, they've been playing with fire this whole time n got burnt.

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And yet the rule maker has been pretty lenient when it comes to things like ACT. Look I'm all for them enforcing the rules but they don't get to pick and choose when to enforce them. You either enforce it fully or not at all.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I'll say it again, they've been playing with fire this whole time n got burnt.

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Correct. This is something I won't ever argue. My main concern is with how broad their statement was yesterday. They should probably clarify their stance a bit more. Some people are making some seemingly outrageous claims in jest, but I feel that the concern is more than justified with how vague their statement really was.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

And yet the rule maker has been pretty lenient when it comes to things like ACT. Look I'm all for them enforcing the rules but they don't get to pick and choose when to enforce them. You either enforce it fully or not at all.

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Actually they do, that's ALSO in their Terms of Service.

" If a violation is confirmed as a result of our investigations, Square Enix may, in its sole discretion, issue a penalty to the relevant Final Fantasy XIV service account. "

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

And yet the rule maker has been pretty lenient when it comes to things like ACT. Look I'm all for them enforcing the rules but they don't get to pick and choose when to enforce them. You either enforce it fully or not at all.

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Yet that is not something for you to debate on. Its within their rights and Yoshi-P and the ToS clearly states that they can ban anyone at anytime whether they deem they're breaking their rules. Grow up.

Lol keep defending them harder, this is actually kind of funny.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Lol keep defending them harder, this is actually kind of funny.

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What's funny is your inability to read, both what was clearly stated or how to navigate the grey area.

But don't take any forumer's word for it, have someone more legally savvy read it for you: https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...&la=1&ret=rule

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Lol keep defending them harder, this is actually kind of funny.

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Has nothing to do with defending dude. It's just the fact of the matter. I don't fully like it myself as yes it means I can be banned for anything BUT I'm not foolish enough to put my foot in the fire n test it. Rules are rules. Follow them or risk the consequences. We're adults here not little children. This concept isn't taboo by any stretch

For me, in addition to what people have already stated multiple times here about this having been the TOS all along and Yoshi having made multiple verbal/written "warnings" to the general public over the years about it, before now, I think there's also some element at this point of the "suffering from success" meme at play.

FFXIV, at this point, has more eyes on it than it ever has in the past. Therefore, it's important that they maintain the image of integrity in the game if they want people to continue to have faith in them as a dev team and their product. If there are allegations of unfairness/cheating in a fairly publicized/currently popular piece of game content, it's in their best interest to do what they can to publicly remedy that situation ASAP to show they will not tolerate that kind of behavior and people can trust them to enforce their own rules. People reported someone flagrantly violating the TOS in a public sphere (i.e., streaming), so SE's options then were to do nothing and look like hypocrites and undermine public trust, or to hand down some kind of warning/punishment/whatever you want to call it for breaking their rules to the point where you've "riled up the commonfolk" enough that they're bothering to report you.

Do I get the impression from Yoshi's most recent message that they're going to necessarily be actively going around searching for such people at this point? Still no.

Do I get the impression that they absolutely could start doing that at any time that they wished because it is indeed a violation of the TOS that every player must agree to in order to use the game? Absolutely.

Do I get the impression that they are closer to taking some kind of widespread hardline countermeasure against 3rd party addons now than they ever were in the past, for a whole variety of reasons, many of which have been discussed in this thread? Again, yes.

To the point of whether a 10-day ban was justified vs. some kind of lighter warning, in my mind, absolutely yes. If Yoshi literally just put up that long message about "don't do this" and you're still very publicly doing exactly what he said not to do - no matter how you think the rules were or weren't enforced in the past - you're basically asking to get slapped. A "don't do this again" verbal warning with no actual consequence other than a strike on your account (which, again, we don't know if this person may have already had other previous strikes on their account) will do nothing to show you mean business. If you roll into work 10 minutes late on a consistent basis and your boss tells you not to do it again, does that usually mean you're NEVER going to do it again if there's no "teeth" behind the request? If your boss tells you not to do it again or there will be consequences, on the other hand, are you willing to do it again and find out what those consequences are? If the consequences are "up to and including suspension/termination," if you're in an area that has employment-at-will, is that something you want to test out to see if they're serious? Seems a bit like Russian roulette, to me... this feels the same as that, though arguably lower stakes than a job situation (though, maybe not even, if you're a streamer).

TL;DR: My opinion is that the ban was justified after many previous public warnings not to do exactly what the streamer was doing, and to show publicly that they enforce their own rules in this current era of unprecedented popularity for XIV.

SE can see that there is an advantage to using 3rd party tools but these tools aren't coming to consoles.
So their 2 choices kill off the console which is too many users, or 10 ban people that have been breaking the rules for years anyways.

Just because you speed to work every day doesn't mean that 1st time you get caught going 20 over they are going to give you a warning because it's your 1st time.

A 10 day suspension is a more than generous warning.
Should be outright bans.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There were warnings, sure, but very little action. Two wrongs never make a right, but in my opinion, SE is more at fault here than the player base. Don't make warnings if you don't have the balls to back them up, I say. They let this situation get out of hand.

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S-E were at fault for not doing something at first, for being lenient, but they can't be at fault since they are doing what they are supposed to do: applying their ToS against those players who are breaking them. They have decided that enough is enough. No one would be this mad if measures were taken against bots, no matter how late. People who use 3rd party tools were given a kind of "free pass" for a while and now they don't have it they are losing their mind. Well, you were never supposed to have it and you know it. Enough with the mental gymnastics. YOU WERE NEVER ALLOWED. End of discussion.

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Originally Posted by Xiu_Ye

Do people really think a 10 day ban after years of calling things grey areas and 'just don't harass people' is an appropriate response? Don't come in saying "THEY HAVE THE RIGHT", no one cares or argues they are within their rights. I'm not even saying "let them have the tools still..." I'm simply saying that pulling them to gaol, warning them, and then letting them go when they remove the offending material, accomplishes the same effect without making half the userbase angry that people are being pulled mid-prog for sudden 10-day bans.

Please dont reply with no thought comments. Actually think about the question I'm presenting and give real reasons why a ban is better than a warning in this scenario with the context of how things have been treated.

"Its against the rules no sympathy" posts miss the point entirely.

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If you are stupid enough to stream a violation of the ToS you deserve to lose your account entirely.

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Originally Posted by Ranhansha

S-E were at fault for not doing something at first, for being lenient, but they can't be at fault since they are doing what they are supposed to do: applying their ToS against those players who are breaking them. They have decided that enough is enough. No one would be this mad if measures were taken against bots, no matter how late. People who use 3rd party tools were given a kind of "free pass" for a while and now they don't have it they are losing their mind. Well, you were never supposed to have it and you know it. Enough with the mental gymnastics. YOU WERE NEVER ALLOWED. End of discussion.

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They are partially (as in...partially, not completely) at fault for being so lenient up until now. I don't use mods with FF XIV and I never have, so there's that too. But yeah, they were never allowed. Obviously. But their general inaction paved the way for players to keep pushing the limit to see what they could get away with. Apparently they pushed too far, hence the Lodestone announcement yesterday. And that is well within their right to act on. Anyone caught using mods and publicly displaying their ToS violations was playing with fire, and they burned. I have no sympathy for anyone who uses mods, knowing full well they aren't allowed, but this is a situation that SE had a bit of a hand in making.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If you are stupid enough to stream a violation of the ToS you deserve to lose your account entirely.

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The ToS of it was vague, and it still is vague.

The only reason this person was the fall guy and got banned was before a group of people mass reported him, that's it. SE would have never moderated his stream or found out.

Is it probably stupid to stream with add ons? Sure we can agree on that. But it also has been such a grey area and barely enforced for so long many people don't think it matters.
Funny thing is they banned him, then said we want to add some of the things that he was using in the game. Thanks SE.

The vague ToS is why this game doesn't have a lot of streamers, and its the reason people don't communicate in the game much anymore. Combine that with a community that is far more toxic than WoW could ever be by actively trying to get each other banned over petty arguments, it's a mess. Tighten the ToS tell players what the exact rules are.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

The ToS of it was vague, and it still is vague.

The only reason this person was the fall guy and got banned was before a group of people mass reported him, that's it. SE would have never moderated his stream or found out.

Is it probably stupid to stream with add ons? Sure we can agree on that. But it also has been such a grey area and barely enforced for so long many people don't think it matters.
Funny thing is they banned him, then said we want to add some of the things that he was using in the game. Thanks SE.

The vague ToS is why this game doesn't have a lot of streamers, and its the reason people don't communicate in the game much anymore. Combine that with a community that is far more toxic than WoW could ever be by actively trying to get each other banned over petty arguments, it's a mess. Tighten the ToS tell players what the exact rules are.

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Thats some hyperbole if I've ever seen some. And I'll say it again. YoshiP has already said not to do it. There's nothing vague about that. And they spoke of improving the UI in the future yes, but until then you still need to follow the rules until said rules change. The amount of gymnastics folks are trying to use here is astounding.

Can you prove ToS is why the game doesn't have alot of streamers? Can you prove ToS is why people apparently don't talk in game? Also news flash most of the community isn't mass reporting to get folks banned. The bad eggs don't represent the whole

Am i late the to bait post? Where's all the hot takes?

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

They are partially (as in...partially, not completely) at fault for being so lenient up until now. I don't use mods with FF XIV and I never have, so there's that too. But yeah, they were never allowed. Obviously. But their general inaction paved the way for players to keep pushing the limit to see what they could get away with. Apparently they pushed too far, hence the Lodestone announcement yesterday. And that is well within their right to act on. Anyone caught using mods and publicly displaying their ToS violations was playing with fire, and they burned. I have no sympathy for anyone who uses mods, knowing full well they aren't allowed, but this is a situation that SE had a bit of a hand in making.

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They might be at fault because they allowed people to get a bit too comfortable, but, in my opinion, now players are blowing things out of proportion. This stuff was never accepted, so what are they on about?
To be honest, the last one, wasn't the first announcement on the topic and their stance was always clear. At least it was for me. If people had any kind of doubt it was because of other players spreading misinformation or "just don't say" which, apparently still applies since Yoshi-P said they can't track what your PC is doing. The problem is people are shamelessly showing off their screens filled with mods and that's as dumb as it gets. What are they supposed to do? I don't use them and, what's more, I wouldn't even report someone if I knew they were using something like a damage meter, shadders or a translator. I don't see the harm in those. However, I like the fact that they seem to be cracking down on stuff like cactbot, which I believe is the one that calls the mechs for you.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

There were warnings, sure, but very little action. Two wrongs never make a right, but in my opinion, SE is more at fault here than the player base. Don't make warnings if you don't have the balls to back them up, I say. They let this situation get out of hand.

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yet when they crack down, you people whine.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

You do know that in real world you can get in trouble if you lie to cops that you called?

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you do realize the one who got suspended streamed proof of his crime right.
Why would people have the need to lie?

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Originally Posted by Xiu_Ye

Do people really think a 10 day ban after years of calling things grey areas and 'just don't harass people' is an appropriate response? Don't come in saying "THEY HAVE THE RIGHT", no one cares or argues they are within their rights. I'm not even saying "let them have the tools still..." I'm simply saying that pulling them to gaol, warning them, and then letting them go when they remove the offending material, accomplishes the same effect without making half the userbase angry that people are being pulled mid-prog for sudden 10-day bans.

Please dont reply with no thought comments. Actually think about the question I'm presenting and give real reasons why a ban is better than a warning in this scenario with the context of how things have been treated.

"Its against the rules no sympathy" posts miss the point entirely.

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It's a common tactic that authority uses to set an example. The goal here wasn't to warn, or politely tell people to stop, knowing that they might. It was to set an example that you WILL be banned for possibly ten days or more if you use these add ons. As much as I would of loved to see warnings handed out, this is a make an example out of streamers and popular players kind of situation, and It's more common than you think. It just hasn't happened in XIV for a long while. I would normally expect this kind of thing with government, education, or in a job situation.

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Originally Posted by hagare

yet when they crack down, you people whine.

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I'm probably one of a few people who have outright admitted to supporting SE on their right to enforce their ToS, so...I just feel it comes too late is all. I'm not whining. Just wondering what took SE so long.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'm probably one of a few people who have outright admitted to supporting SE on their right to enforce their ToS, so...I just feel it comes too late is all. I'm not whining. Just wondering what took SE so long.

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During a high profile world first race, and people submitting mass reports - that's probably what did it. It should have been enforced from the start if this is how they were going to do it.

https://i.postimg.cc/4dcMvqks/charibert.jpg

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

During a high profile world first race, and people submitting mass reports - that's probably what did it. It should have been enforced from the start if this is how they were going to do it.

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what you run into though, is that they likely figured, from the start, that saying, "dont do this, please dont do this, we may start banning over this so please just dont" would work. basically.... people. ran out of chances. and SE ran out of thinking people would just stop.

you can say "oh this is too severe" but its working isnt it? people are talking about it, and anyone going forward who streams while using a 3rd party, knows they could be banned as well.

there is always a first person to be banned.. or caught breaking some new law. the streamer wanted attention, well, I say they got it

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

what you run into though, is that they likely figured, from the start, that saying, "dont do this, please dont do this, we may start banning over this so please just dont" would work.

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Arguably their first mistake, in my opinion. Asking nicely on the internet usually falls on deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Arguably their first mistake, in my opinion. Asking nicely on the internet usually falls on deaf ears.

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I dont disagree. I think they believed however, in the same values as the game they create, people are inherently good and will do the right thing, follow the rules, people will make the right choices....

humanity however, and especially if you spend any forum time at all, will take any advantage they can of rules if it benefits them somehow, despite being warned. Then reserve the right to scream as loud as possible that they have been "wronged"

As a bunch of other people already said, a suspension is a warning because it's not permanent. I have hundreds of games I haven't played in 10 days, it's not that big a deal.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Arguably their first mistake, in my opinion. Asking nicely on the internet usually falls on deaf ears.

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That's not exactly true. I mean, obviously it is for a certain group of people or we wouldn't be here discussing this, but the vast majority of players do not use any sort of mods to the game and I truly believe that many of those would have if SE had not ever asked them to not in the first place. For most people just knowing the rules is enough, and they are not going around pushing boundaries and risking their accounts.

I assume it’s because if there was just a warning without a punishment, then other people who use mods that provide gameplay or HUD advantages (not cosmetic tweaks that don’t affect the gameplay like adding missing Hrothgar hat support, which I hope Square Enix would focus on) would just keep doing it until they hit that harmless warning; this sends a stronger message. That said, ten days does feel kind of high for an initial punishment.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

not cosmetic tweaks that don’t affect the gameplay like adding missing Hrothgar hat support, which I hope Square Enix would focus on

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*Awkwardly stares at the temp ban that one player got because people mass reported their nsfw pictures from twitter to SE*

"Why not a Warning"?

Because SE has given us plenty of warnings on plenty of things, yet people chose to ignore them. At this particular point, a "Warning" is insufficient.

SE has asked us, multiple times over the years to Not use ACT or any 3rd party tools. While yes, it was more on the fence of a "dont show, don't tell" sort of scenario and I believe that will still remain. The issue is people being upset that people who actively broadcasted to the public that they were using 3rd party tools finally got slapped for doing it.

But why are they upset? Because it's "their streamer". Their pal, their best friend that doesn't know they exist.. Para-social relationships festering and hitting a boiling point. You can already see that coming to a head, with plenty of streamers being mass-reported for literally anything that could be against ToS. From 3rd party tools, to harmless UI shifts, to things that don't even show up in-game. (See above post)

There is blood in the water and people are currently going feral because of it, lashing out at the harmless because it's still technically against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

*Awkwardly stares at the temp ban that one player got because people mass reported their nsfw pictures from twitter to SE*

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To be fair, that’s different because everyone in PvP has to see someone’s adventurer plate that’s been made to look like… something that rhymes with procrastination; people can’t choose to opt out of NC-17 material like that. Hrothgar hat fixes are neither lewd nor even seen by everyone.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

To be fair, that’s different because everyone in PvP has to see someone’s adventurer plate that’s been made to look like… something that rhymes with procrastination; people can’t choose to opt out of NC-17 material like that. Hrothgar hat fixes are neither lewd nor even seen by everyone.

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Nah, the Adventure plate thing was legit since it showed the pictures before each match. This was a year or two ago when someone used texture mods to make nsfw pictures. They showed it off on Twitter and some people mass reported that person for hacking. The weird thing was that before they said that they won't use outside evidence (twitter, instagram, youtube, twitch, ect.) as evidence for hacking but I guess they changed their mind. Oh well, lol.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

I believe you have to agree to the terms of service to play the game so if they weren't aware of the rules, that's on them. Doesn't matter how new they are.

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And who reads the lengthy ToS ?
Surely, we agree, but it's hard to follow a ToS that even SE interprets on a case by case basis rather than a hard black and white and now we've arrived at this point because of that.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

Ignorance does not protect one from punishment.

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Ignorance on the players part ?
No, this was willfull ignorance and interpretation on SE's part.
They let it get this far while placing blame on the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

And who reads the lengthy ToS ?
Surely, we agree, but it's hard to follow a ToS that even SE interprets on a case by case basis rather than a hard black and white and now we've arrived at this point because of that.




Ignorance on the players part ?
No, this was willfull ignorance and interpretation on SE's part.
They let it get this far while placing blame on the playerbase.

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So you're blaming SE because folks decide not to read the ToS...
And folks expect the devs to listen to them...
Ik the xiv community has issues but the fact so many don't understand that rules are rules is astounding.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

So you're blaming SE because folks decide not to read the ToS...
And folks expect the devs to listen to them...
Ik the xiv community has issues but the fact so many don't understand that rules are rules is astounding.

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The community is in some weird parasocial relationship with the games developers.
The moment they realise that they are not their friends (which lately people are catching the hint)
then they won't be so pissy like they are now lol.

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Originally Posted by Xiu_Ye

Do people really think a 10 day ban after years of calling things grey areas and 'just don't harass people' is an appropriate response? Don't come in saying "THEY HAVE THE RIGHT", no one cares or argues they are within their rights. I'm not even saying "let them have the tools still..." I'm simply saying that pulling them to gaol, warning them, and then letting them go when they remove the offending material, accomplishes the same effect without making half the userbase angry that people are being pulled mid-prog for sudden 10-day bans.

Please dont reply with no thought comments. Actually think about the question I'm presenting and give real reasons why a ban is better than a warning in this scenario with the context of how things have been treated.

"Its against the rules no sympathy" posts miss the point entirely.

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I always love it when, people put in a pre-emptive defense against the following responses and telling people how not to react to the thread topic.

If you read the ToS, and you seen where it says it's against ToS to use said things, THAT is your warning. You are warned by it being against ToS, and anyone with an ounce of common sense, would know NOT to use them because they will be punished.

I personally hope that SE will continue banning those people who think, "Ah alright, I'll just use these anyways, I won't get caught." and provide those who believe the same, with examples why it's not wise to use them.

If you're a person, who is making use of Addons and alike, and subsequently get banned mid-whatever you're doing, it's YOUR fault, no one elses, no the fault of Mommy and Daddy SE for not telling you, "Oh no don't do that honey." Don't want to be banned? Don't break ToS.

Easy.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Ignorance on the players part ?
No, this was willfull ignorance and interpretation on SE's part.
They let it get this far while placing blame on the playerbase.

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What do you mean? None player was banned for using ACT even if it is known they should not use it. If they banned people for just using ACT, they would ban the entire first world group, but they banned only the red mage, who surpisingly had the same mod as Bengel who got banned. I didn't found a video of the player from Japan, but judging by some comments on his topic, he was using the same mod. To me it looks like they very specifically banned people that were using addon showing them specific information that is unavailable for other players. Because as I said, the other members of their groups were using the other mods, but not this one (or at least they were not taking visible advantage of it).

Yes, SE haven't been as strict with their policies in the past, that's fact. XIV hasn't ever been as popular, nor as visible, "A Titan among games", as it is now. It should come as no surprise that SE are taking a harder stance on enforcing their ToS; especially when it comes to highly visible streamers.

That's an important point from the recent post that people aren't talking about. With such an increased player base many more people are modding and with the greatly increased global awareness of the game, SE have to step up and start sending clear and present messages that even the most braindead person could understand. To people unfamiliar with Japanese communication, it seems like Yoshi's been mealy-mouthed and wishy-washy about explaining the use of mods and ToS. For those familiar with Japanese communication styles, the message is loud and clear: do not use them, at all, ever. His messages have been as clear to Japanese people as "ALL MODS ARE BANNED, DO NOT USE THEM EVER, NO EXCEPTIONS, IF WE FIND YOU, WE MAY SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT." would be to a Westerner.

It's a whole lot easier to hit an individual streamer with a suspension than it is to seek out many non-streamers. On top of that, how much publicity have these recent actions given the issue? How many thousands of people are now keenly aware of the repercussions of modding because three or four people got suspended mid-stream? The return on investment on that's been huge.