Revelations (and Feedback) from Pandæmonium: Asphodelos

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Originally Posted by Iscah

We can't say that he "knew exactly" at all. It could just be chance that he sent us to that exact time and place – doubly so if his own memories are still hazy.

(Come to think of it, his restored memories at this point may even be a muddle of everything stored in the soul stones, so bits of Emet and Lahabrea's memories as well.)




One third of a raid that's supposed to be about him, or rather his creations. We've only just set the scene at this point and there is plenty more story to unfold.

At this point in the Eden raids we hadn't even met Gaia yet.

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Yeah, honestly I would say for a first tier we got alot more out of Pand then usual for the first raid of the 8 Man. With the Coils being the exception, Alex/Omega/Eden all have very slow first tiers story wise where we only really get a basic set up.

Actually learning quite a bit about Lahabrea's family life is significantly more then normal for a first tier.

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Originally Posted by dynus

I've seen people use Persephone, which fits, as Persephone is a traveler of sorts. (Also, is Hades's wife in mythology, so WoL/Emet-Selch shippers love for that too =D )

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I prefer her alternate name, Kore. It's arguably more unisex too despite it meaning "maiden". Given that Artemis and Themis were both female gods, it seems the writers don't pay attention to gender specifics anyway.

I don't expect Azem will ever be given a name though. Azem would more than likely be Ardbert in Ancient form. I wish they'd hadn't gone with sundered reincarnations physically resembling their original unsundered forms, I think it needlessly complicates things.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I don't expect Azem will ever be given a name though. Azem would more than likely be Ardbert in Ancient form. I wish they'd hadn't gone with sundered reincarnations physically resembling their original unsundered forms, I think it needlessly complicates things.

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Considering how odd Azem in general is (as stated by the Ancients), it wouldn't surprise me if Azem showed up with an animal head, and kept changing what they looked like every time.

As mentioned by others in the thread, I am very confident that (our) Lahabrea's true name will end up being Hephaestus.

Also I am presuming that the events of Pandaemonium are taking place after the MSQ Elpis events (I feel like that's the natural default assumption until stated otherwise), and since the MSQ referenced the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" Tales from the Shadows has having already happened, I am guessing Themis is already Elidibus at this point in time (plus him wearing white robes also indicates that since they said only Elidibus and living former-Convocation seat holders wear white robes), but is concealing the identity of his status.

At the very least the events of Pandaemonium have to take place after the "Through His Eyes" short story, since the story stated during the lead in to the Phoinix fight, that the Words of Lahabrea have finished the finalized concept of the Phoenix already.

I do wonder if Azem predicting the WoL's arrival to help Themis is meant to indicate that Venat decided to let Azem in as part of the select few individuals she would tell about her knowledge and plans of the future. Or if it's indicating and/or leading to something else.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

I do wonder if Azem predicting the WoL's arrival to help Themis is meant to indicate that Venat decided to let Azem in as part of the select few individuals she would tell about her knowledge and plans of the future. Or if it's indicating and/or leading to something else.

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It makes me wonder...

Is Azem a Seer? Or perhaps we do more time travel at some point and meet ourselves? Or perhaps...the concept of Alexander itself was used in the Ancient world and it told Azem everything they needed to know after seeing the timeline?

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

I do wonder if Azem predicting the WoL's arrival to help Themis is meant to indicate that Venat decided to let Azem in as part of the select few individuals she would tell about her knowledge and plans of the future. Or if it's indicating and/or leading to something else.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Is Azem a Seer? Or perhaps we do more time travel at some point and meet ourselves? Or perhaps...the concept of Alexander itself was used in the Ancient world and it told Azem everything they needed to know after seeing the timeline?

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I think it's probably much simpler than that:

Azem doesn't necessarily need to know that specifically reincarnatedSunderedAzem would be arriving. It could just be that Azem willed a worthy companion upon their friend in a time of need, and their power as Azem would ensure that someone capable of helping their friend would appear. A call to anyone appropriately capable, and in this case the worthy companion capable of helping their friend just happened to be the WoX.

My concern is this:

We know from ShB that Azem had ghosted Venat. We also know from Azem's soul shards, the WoL and Ardbert, that they will go above and beyond to save their friends and their world. It's inconceivable that Azem would have supported Venat had she confided in them.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

My concern is this:

We know from ShB that Azem had ghosted Venat. We also know from Azem's soul shards, the WoL and Ardbert, that they will go above and beyond to save their friends and their world. It's inconceivable that Azem would have supported Venat had she confided in them.

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Maybe, there is something beyond the Final Days/Meteia problem that Azem saw. Like the Meteia is small peanuts compared to the problem he encountered or is actually behind the corruption of the Meteia. Or, Azem actually had contact with Venat before he/she was approached by one of Venat's allies. He/She might have agreed with the Sundering but wanted to be one of the Sundered so he/she can do his/her job as Azem in multiple worlds. Maybe someday the devs would expand upon into the far future.

There are a lot of possibilities for the his lack of presence in both groups.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

Maybe, there is something beyond the Final Days/Meteia problem that Azem saw. Like the Meteia is small peanuts compared to the problem he encountered or is actually behind the corruption of the Meteia. Or, Azem actually had contact with Venat before he/she was approached by one of Venat's allies. He/She might have agreed with the Sundering but wanted to be one of the Sundered so he/she can do his/her job as Azem in multiple worlds. Maybe someday the devs would expand upon into the far future.

There are a lot of possibilities for the his lack of presence in both groups.

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We already know how the Meteia got “corrupted” so to say, they fell to despair, the game shows that as much.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

Or, Azem actually had contact with Venat before he/she was approached by one of Venat's allies. He/She might have agreed with the Sundering but wanted to be one of the Sundered so he/she can do his/her job as Azem in multiple worlds. Maybe someday the devs would expand upon into the far future.

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Until told otherwise, I love this theory for Azem and am taking it as my personal HC, as it aligns Azem closer to my WoL and my biases as the player (there is a serious disconnect right now between me as the WoL and the Azem character because I feel no admiration or affection for the Ancients minus Venat) and fits with what the role of Azem is, to go out into the world instead of the curated seats of power to be among the everyday people helping them and learning from them.

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Originally Posted by Theozilla

We already know how the Meteia got “corrupted” so to say, they fell to despair, the game shows that as much.

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No, you didn't understand by what I meant. Sure the game showed that but maybe, perhaps it's just my tinfoil hat, that the story was not complete yet with only their perspective.

Can't even entertain the thought that something out there in space was behind the scenes of the Meteia turning nihilistic? Like deliberately being shown civilizations that are on the brink of self-desctruction and seeing no other civilizations that are actually thriving? What if this hypothetical force knows the concept/existence of dynamis and its functions? What if they had the intention of destroying the universe and used the Meteia as their proxy? If all of these questions have merit, this is nasty force we are dealing with as they "fed" the birds with despair until it grew strong independently.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

No, you didn't understand by what I meant. Sure the game showed that but maybe, perhaps it's just my tinfoil hat, that the story was not complete yet with only their perspective.

Can't even entertain the thought that something out there in space was behind the scenes of the Meteia turning nihilistic? Like deliberately being shown civilizations that are on the brink of self-desctruction and seeing no other civilizations that are actually thriving? What if this hypothetical force's goal knows the concept/existence of dynamis and its functions? What if they had the intention of destroying the universe and used the Meteia as their proxy? If all of these questions have merit, this is nasty force we are dealing with as they "fed" the birds with despair until it grew strong independently.

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Wait a minute...I just hope I didn't think of an antagonist that is/are similar to the Ascians but in a universal scale.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

Wait a minute...I just hope I didn't think of an antagonist that is/are similar to the Ascians but in a universal scale.

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Not another secret manipulator society behind all evils /groan

okay okay, as long as their visual design is an improvement on the bland Ascian robes+mask

Seriously though, there's only so many variations on overarching Big Bad villains for a long-form action oriented game, so it'll be interesting to see what replaces the Ascians moving forward

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Not another secret manipulator society behind all evils /groan

okay okay, as long as their visual design is an improvement on the bland Ascian robes+mask

Seriously though, there's only so many variations on overarching Big Bad villains for a long-form action oriented game, so it'll be interesting to see what replaces the Ascians moving forward

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Either way they go, I suspect Dynamis may play a important role in Season 2 and the antagonist.

6.0 may have been the end of Season 1 but it also introduced Dynamis and what Dynamis is. Not to mention confirm Limit Break is the power of Dynamis. Imagine what kind of powers WoL has if he/she can unlock the other powers of Dynamis beyond just Limit Breaks.

I said this in past comments in other threads before but I'll say it again here, I am guessing Season 2 may go down the Warrior of Despair path but how and why are still just guesses. Warrior of Despair is still a young concept SE introduced into the FF series in Final Fantasy Mobius which is sadly shutdown now but this concept is still open thanks to being established into the FF series.

Dynamis definitely seems like a good power to focus on and have the villains use, because the WoL is both skilled in it via their heroic willpower and ability to withstand negative emotions and still find positives - and that the mechanics of it are still mysterious to our cast

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Dynamis definitely seems like a good power to focus on and have the villains use, because the WoL is both skilled in it via their heroic willpower and ability to withstand negative emotions and still find positives - and that the mechanics of it are still mysterious to our cast

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Not to mention SE established in 6.0 that there are people researching into Dynamis in current era. While very few there are still people researching it. I suspect this may play a importatn factor in Season 2 since there could be a civilization in the unknown regions that have a better understanding of Dynamis than current regions that Eorzea have contact with currently.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Not to mention SE established in 6.0 that there are people researching into Dynamis in current era. While very few there are still people researching it. I suspect this may play a importatn factor in Season 2 since there could be a civilization in the unknown regions that have a better understanding of Dynamis than current regions that Eorzea have contact with currently.

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I could imagine a villain in Meracydia or the New World being capable of incredible feats with Dynamis, and becoming a threat pretty quickly.

Pandaemonium Asphodelos: The First Tier is a Slow Burn Like Always

So Pandaemonium takes place in the closely guarded secret of unsundered Elpis, centering around Amaurot's testing blacksite. Our companions are Themis (obviously Elidibus) and Erichthonios (probably the Lahabrea we know) trying to regain control of the facility after some unknown problem caused all the warders to go crazy and the creations to break loose. We learn nothing of real value about what's going on in this tier, other than a little bit of Erichthonios' family drama (he's an inept mage, but his mother Athena was amazing, and his father is the current Lahabrea... but his father is cold toward him because of that ineptitude, while his mother died some time ago).

So between becoming fast friends with Themis (Elidibus), being an inept mage (reflecting our Lahabrea being pitifully weak compared to fellow unsundered Emet-Selch and Elidibus), his boss form having Lahabrea's Convocation mask on top of his head, and carrying a crystal with Mateus' full glyph on it... any bets Erichthonios is our Lahabrea? Anyone?

Anyway, cool fights, even if they were a bit easy. I was having some lag spikes, but thankfully they cleared up by the time I challenged Hesperos, and I trounced that Dracula wannabe - one try, no deaths, no vuln up stacks.

As stated above this is just the first tier, and raids generally don't kick into high gear until around [X]10 or so. So patience is the name of the game, as usual.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Pandaemonium Asphodelos: The First Tier is a Slow Burn Like Always

So Pandaemonium takes place in the closely guarded secret of unsundered Elpis, centering around Amaurot's testing blacksite. Our companions are Themis (obviously Elidibus) and Erichthonios (probably the Lahabrea we know) trying to regain control of the facility after some unknown problem caused all the warders to go crazy and the creations to break loose. We learn nothing of real value about what's going on in this tier, other than a little bit of Erichthonios' family drama (he's an inept mage, but his mother Athena was amazing, and his father is the current Lahabrea... but his father is cold toward him because of that ineptitude, while his mother died some time ago).

So between becoming fast friends with Themis (Elidibus), being an inept mage (reflecting our Lahabrea being pitifully weak compared to fellow unsundered Emet-Selch and Elidibus), his boss form having Lahabrea's Convocation mask on top of his head, and carrying a crystal with Mateus' full glyph on it... any bets Erichthonios is our Lahabrea? Anyone?

Anyway, cool fights, even if they were a bit easy. I was having some lag spikes, but thankfully they cleared up by the time I challenged Hesperos, and I trounced that Dracula wannabe - one try, no deaths, no vuln up stacks.

As stated above this is just the first tier, and raids generally don't kick into high gear until around [X]10 or so. So patience is the name of the game, as usual.

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Regarding our two companions

Presuming that the events of Pandaemonium are taking place after the MSQ Elpis events (I feel like that's the natural default assumption until stated otherwise), and since the MSQ referenced the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" Tales from the Shadows has having already happened, I am guessing Themis is already Elidibus at this point in time (plus him wearing white robes also indicates that since they said only Elidibus and living former-Convocation seat holders wear white robes), but is concealing the identity of his status.

At the very least the events of Pandaemonium have to take place after the "Through His Eyes" short story, since the story stated during the lead in to the Phoinix fight, that the Words of Lahabrea have finished the finalized concept of the Phoenix already.
And since "our" Lahabrea was known for his fire creations and credited with making Phoenix, that currently makes it impossible for Erichthonios to be "our" Lahabrea since the Phoenix concept has already been finished. More likely "our" Lahabrea will probably turn out to be named Hephaestus.

That 565 item level is painful to even get into Pandemonium in the first place, especially when I apparently managed to get every other i560 accessory from Expert dungeons except for the one I actually needed (Healer ring).

It's a little bizarre for the Amaurotines to create an entire prison facility (for creations, rather than errant Ancients) lit in dark colours, have hanging spiked cages everywhere for no apparent purpose, built the thing in cold stone and iron, and then treat Hermes's depression as something strange and unusual. Pandemonium is a very hostile work environment with regards to the decor, and I pity the wardens who had to work there day in and out. I would not have been surprised if the wardens going mad was because they had tried and failed endlessly to petition for some proper lighting and paint.

As usual for the first tier of the raid, we have no idea what's going on. I do find it intriguing that Themis does at least appear to know more than he's letting on to us or Erich, given his knowing comments in the stinger scene of Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by symbiote129

Can't even entertain the thought that something out there in space was behind the scenes of the Meteia turning nihilistic? Like deliberately being shown civilizations that are on the brink of self-desctruction and seeing no other civilizations that are actually thriving? What if this hypothetical force knows the concept/existence of dynamis and its functions? What if they had the intention of destroying the universe and used the Meteia as their proxy? If all of these questions have merit, this is nasty force we are dealing with as they "fed" the birds with despair until it grew strong independently.

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What purpose would this serve to the narrative? This is not a rhetorical question, by the way; I would be interested to know if there is a story with a message (like every story in FFXIV so far) that can be told via the introduction of this mysterious Even Greater Force For Despair.

Personally, I don't see the need for anything beyond what we're told of the Meteia, including their instinctual ability to receive, broadcast, and amplify dynamis and emotions. We know that their act of "observing" civilizations had the effect of influencing those civilizations, especially since Meteion did not simply ask her question and leave, but instead kept asking the question without knowing understanding (EDIT: thought of a better word) that it was flawed, all while broadcasting her negative dynamis due to the initial Great Filter encounters.

So to me, having some other malevolent being behind the scenes deliberately doing this to Meteion would be just escalating the antagonist power levels for the sake of escalation, rather than for the sake of telling a story. But that's just my opinion, and I'm willing to be proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

The Story's Sake

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I would think that if they took the route to go for a theoretical super Dynamis set of bad guys, it would be the one race of beings we weren't shown in Ultima Thule. That would be beings composed entirely of Dynamis. They could then boil it down to a conflict between Aetheric beings and Dynamic beings. Perhaps even setup actual god figures for the entire universe. Say a goddess representing all of aether and a god representing all of Dynamis.

The possibility for new philosophical takes and moral lessons grows slim though, imo. It would just be another existential conflict. "Your existence is a plague to us that prevents us from living in peaceful blackness, so knowing that you like to burn brighter than you ever should, we set your civilizations up to grow until they collapse in on themselves."

I suppose they'd have to come out of the woodwork now, because the Sundered are partially dynamic beings and that's perhaps a curiosity they can't deal with indirectly? At the very least this would at least give them more ammo for, "Hydaelyn's monstrous act was for the greatest good." type deal, but I don't think the writers view the story as needing to justify that anymore than it already did.

It would at the very least give us new baddies that could go in any direction.

But something tells me that we're going to be turning inwards to the Source, that this expansion's answer to the Fermi Paradox was presented as it was so that we could do just that and flesh out the rest of the Source.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I would think that if they took the route to go for a theoretical super Dynamis set of bad guys, it would be the one race of beings we weren't shown in Ultima Thule. That would be beings composed entirely of Dynamis. They could then boil it down to a conflict between Aetheric beings and Dynamic beings. Perhaps even setup actual god figures for the entire universe. Say a goddess representing all of aether and a god representing all of Dynamis.

The possibility for new philosophical takes and moral lessons grows slim though, imo. It would just be another existential conflict. "Your existence is a plague to us that prevents us from living in peaceful blackness, so knowing that you like to burn brighter than you ever should, we set your civilizations up to grow until they collapse in on themselves."

I suppose they'd have to come out of the woodwork now, because the Sundered are partially dynamic beings and that's perhaps a curiosity they can't deal with indirectly? At the very least this would at least give them more ammo for, "Hydaelyn's monstrous act was for the greatest good." type deal, but I don't think the writers view the story as needing to justify that anymore than it already did.

It would at the very least give us new baddies that could go in any direction.

But something tells me that we're going to be turning inwards to the Source, that this expansion's answer to the Fermi Paradox was presented as it was so that we could do just that and flesh out the rest of the Source.

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Etheirys was pointed out as an anomaly in being so rich in aether, while the rest of the universe was more full of dynamis. I admit I don't know if Hermes meant that the empty space between stars/planets is full of dynamis and planets themselves including Etheirys are full of aether, or if Etheirys is special even among planets. (Given the Omicrons and Dragons all use aether, I'm suspecting the former, but I have no evidence.) But it would indicate that the Sundered of Etheirys shouldn't be this brand new problem for any potential overseer of dynamis, other than that we actually know Meteion and her creator, and thus have a personal connection.

I'm also looking at the hypothetical "big evil dynamis-user" from the standpoint of a fan of magical girl anime, too. Every year, Pretty Cure tells a story about how there's this big evil being that runs off despair/anger/apathy or whatever negative emotion, and the big climactic final battle is always the message of "yes, negative emotions exist, and we need to deal with that, but we can all get through it if we're together". Not denying the core of the big bad (although certainly denying their methods of making Monsters Of The Week), but reaching out and accepting them. Every year, more or less like clockwork (apart from the past few Covid-filled years).

So I see that story message as one worth telling, and it has been told with Meteion. Having another Despair Behind The Despair would be repeating the story in a very short time, to no real benefit I can think of.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I would think that if they took the route to go for a theoretical super Dynamis set of bad guys, it would be the one race of beings we weren't shown in Ultima Thule. That would be beings composed entirely of Dynamis. They could then boil it down to a conflict between Aetheric beings and Dynamic beings. Perhaps even setup actual god figures for the entire universe. Say a goddess representing all of aether and a god representing all of Dynamis.

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I'm not sure it's possible for a race of beings to be composed entirely of Dynamis. That is to say, with beings like Meteion and WoL, it appears as though the thinness of their aether merely allows for interaction with Dynamis, not that Dynamis comprises parts of their selves that are aether-bare.

However, I do wonder at the presence of "true gods" going forward in the story. So far we've only been dealing with false gods, manmade creations, so the introductions of beings with something like true divinity could shake up the narrative quite a bit.

A dreadful realization struck me just now. We're going to be traveling back in time to Etheirys Elpis at least four times, aren't we?

What're the odds that, by the end of Pandaemonium, we will have actually changed the past in some fashion?

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

What're the odds that, by the end of Pandaemonium, we will have actually changed the past in some fashion?

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I'll be frank, if we manage to save the Ancients in an alternate timeline via Pandemonium my opinion of EW will skyrocket. :P All would be forgiven if I could spare my favorite characters a horrific fate. Unfortunately, given that present timeline Elidibus remembers us from Elpis I figure that's just a pipe dream.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'll be frank, if we manage to save the Ancients in an alternate timeline via Pandemonium my opinion of EW will skyrocket. :P All would be forgiven if I could spare my favorite characters a horrific fate. Unfortunately, given that present timeline Elidibus remembers us from Elpis I figure that's just a pipe dream.

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Perhaps I'm misremembering this, but I recall Elidibus saying "You were there" in regards to us being in Elpis, but also saying "You were not there". Which, to me, suggests that the matter of us traveling back in time to Elpis is not so cut and dry. There's also the matter of Azem somehow predicting the time and place of our arrival on our second trip back. There has got to be a reason for that, or so I think. And, as I've said—we'll likely be traveling back in time twice more just to finish the Pandaemonium storyline. Who's to say it won't end with us spilling the beans to Themis about everything? The first time we did that, there was still a lot unknown about the situation. We didn't know what actually caused the Final Days. We didn't know why Zodiark tempered the Convocation. We didn't know where to find Meteion, let alone stop her.

But now we do know all that. And since we know, and we happen to have the ear of someone who can affect meaningful change... why not tell him?

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

And since we know, and we happen to have the ear of someone who can affect meaningful change... why not tell him?

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I'd love to see it, but I'm afraid to get my hopes up about it. One of the explanations I read was that the reason the alternate timeline worked in ShB is because G'raha did not have a return point thus there was no loop. I'm no expert in time travel shenanigans, I think anything outside of multiverse theory is confusing, but the implication would be as long as the WoL has to return to the present there will always be a loop.

Plus, it also seems like Claudien is going to end up being Eric sundered. The writers seem to be sticklers for this 'full circle' theme in EW, unfortunately. Azem's involvement is dubious as well.

I really hope we don't split the timeline.

Finding out what happened in the past? Interesting.

Splitting off a new timeline that no longer has anything to do with the past of the main timeline? I don't care. This ultimately turned me off from Age of Calamity.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Etheirys was pointed out as an anomaly in being so rich in aether, while the rest of the universe was more full of dynamis. I admit I don't know if Hermes meant that the empty space between stars/planets is full of dynamis and planets themselves including Etheirys are full of aether, or if Etheirys is special even among planets. (Given the Omicrons and Dragons all use aether, I'm suspecting the former, but I have no evidence.) But it would indicate that the Sundered of Etheirys shouldn't be this brand new problem for any potential overseer of dynamis, other than that we actually know Meteion and her creator, and thus have a personal connection.

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Considering that Dynamis is likely a reference/homage to real world dark energy, since scientist believe that dark energy is one of the main factors behind the acceleration of the expansion of the universe and that's what Meteion was using dynamis for as well, it's probably the former, in that dynamis (like dark energy) fill up the "empty space" of the universe.
And the 68.3% of the universe being made of dynamis is almost certainly a reference to work done in 2013 based on the Planck spacecraft observations of the CBM (Cosmic Microwave Background), which gave an accurate estimate of 68.3% dark energy, 26.8% dark matter, and 4.9% ordinary matter (which includes anti-matter and regular energy), for the composition of the universe.

Think even bigger.
Over the course of our adventures, we end up gathering all the remaining fragments of our soul, then we go back in time again and become Azem.
That's how they already knew about us. Azem's actually our future.

Right now I believe that Themis is already Elidibus but since the Ancients barely show their faces to another he choose to go there as Themis to investigate undercover. Him already knowing Azem (as Azem the position and not their real name) and seemingly being familiar enough with Lahabrea (the NPC asks him about this in Elpis - german version) makes imo only sense if he is already in his position.

Eric for me feels more like he will be the reincarnation of our questgiver in present time. Same skin tone and eye color. Maybe thanks to our actions he will remember some things.

Seeing how Eric describes his father as cold and uncaring, that Lahabrea imo fits our Lahabrea also perfectly and would just show how blind Emet was to the faults of his people. After all we already see in the beginning of the raid (and with the Elpis sidequests) that the Ancients were not much different from us. Maybe people that mostly lived in Amaurot were shielded from that truth, seeing how Themis did not understand the term Eric used about his mothers death.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Right now I believe that Themis is already Elidibus but since the Ancients barely show their faces to another he choose to go there as Themis to investigate undercover. Him already knowing Azem (as Azem the position and not their real name) and seemingly being familiar enough with Lahabrea (the NPC asks him about this in Elpis - german version) makes imo only sense if he is already in his position.

Seeing how Eric describes his father as cold and uncaring, that Lahabrea imo fits our Lahabrea also perfectly and would just show how blind Emet was to the faults of his people. After all we already see in the beginning of the raid (and with the Elpis sidequests) that the Ancients were not much different from us. Maybe people that mostly lived in Amaurot were shielded from that truth, seeing how Themis did not understand the term Eric used about his mothers death.

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Also agree with 'Themis = Elidibus trying to be undercover' and from the second that Emet started talking about Amaurot I thought it was blindingly obvious that thinking his society was anywhere as idyllic as he said it was absurdly ridiculous, not just because of his nostalgia but because he was talking from a position of power. Emet was one of the members of the Convocation, and any time a person of highest privilege and power extolls how perfect their society was and how content everyone was ... well, I'd no more believe it than I would one of the clergy or lords in Ishgard. Utopian societies take work to convince a reader that they aren't dystopias, and they do that by showing what are and how the lowest in status and the aberrations are treated, and realities like where the trash goes. Pandaemonium as exploring more of literally all the dark underbelly of Ancient society and their suppressed emotions like grief is thematically juicy.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Also agree with 'Themis = Elidibus trying to be undercover' and from the second that Emet started talking about Amaurot I thought it was blindingly obvious that thinking his society was anywhere as idyllic as he said it was absurdly ridiculous, not just because of his nostalgia but because he was talking from a position of power. Emet was one of the members of the Convocation, and any time a person of highest privilege and power extolls how perfect their society was and how content everyone was ... well, I'd no more believe it than I would one of the clergy or lords in Ishgard. Utopian societies take work to convince a reader that they aren't dystopias, and they do that by showing what are and how the lowest in status and the aberrations are treated, and realities like where the trash goes. Pandaemonium as exploring more of literally all the dark underbelly of Ancient society and their suppressed emotions like grief is thematically juicy.

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Well we always only seen the view of the Ancient's time through those who lived in Amaurot which was basically a Utopia city for the Ancients and everyone wanted to get in due to that.

However, outside the city was a different matter we see little about. Elpis gave us a glimps of life out side of Amaurot through Venat and what the Azem does for a living as the 14th seat mostly being a Adventurer and Protector for the Star.

Azem basically does what WoL does now during the Ancient's time and from what Venat said, there was still much of the world the Ancient do not understand through lost civilizations, unexplored lands, and etc. There was also constant danger outside of Amaurot that Azem had to directly involved himself/herself to protect those living outside of Amaurot which we know well enough that most of the other 13 seats did not like Azem doing since it went against protocol for first reporting the incident then acting on it after all 14 determine the best course of action.

Not to mention as Venat said, they only delayed the eventual suffering since their society manage to push away anything that cause despair on to another species or into some dark corner of their society where no one will see it outside of Amauort. While their society they built is ideal with basically 0% crime rates and all jobs provided them all personal necessary needs (heck a job at their version of Mcdonalds and Starbucks pay enough to cover every personal needs such as bills, food, and a home from what we know about how their job system works), most of the other benefits were inside of Amauort such as guarantee safety from outside threats, wild life attacks, and etc.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

Also agree with 'Themis = Elidibus trying to be undercover' and from the second that Emet started talking about Amaurot I thought it was blindingly obvious that thinking his society was anywhere as idyllic as he said it was absurdly ridiculous, not just because of his nostalgia but because he was talking from a position of power. Emet was one of the members of the Convocation, and any time a person of highest privilege and power extolls how perfect their society was and how content everyone was ... well, I'd no more believe it than I would one of the clergy or lords in Ishgard. Utopian societies take work to convince a reader that they aren't dystopias, and they do that by showing what are and how the lowest in status and the aberrations are treated, and realities like where the trash goes. Pandaemonium as exploring more of literally all the dark underbelly of Ancient society and their suppressed emotions like grief is thematically juicy.

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I don't think that really meshes with what we learn from Hythlodaeus in Elpis. Emet-Selch was well travelled and actively helped those in need without ever seeking praise or glory. He wasn't exactly oblivious to the existence of problems within the Unsundered world, though by comparison to what transpired in the Sundered world with brutal wars, forced lovemaking and other horrors the comparison of living in a near paradise is an apt one. After all, many issues could readily be resolved through debate and research, which was actively encouraged.

I also don't think the Convocation were necessarily 'privileged' in the way that is being suggested, either. We know they worked tirelessly for the sake of the Star itself as well as their people. We also know that they were also eager to find the right person for each office.

We also know that if any of the Ancients struggled to make use of the power of Creation, they were offered aid in the form of assistance - which is more than can be said of how many of the Sundered opted to treat those who could not wield aether.

Added some musing to the OP; middling mullings.

Still thinking about the ambiguity of the timeline. Lahabrea - allegedly the one we know - completes the true Phoenix around the time Hades becomes Emet-Selch. Or did he? That experiment was swiftly undone; could we call that a success?

Themis alleges that he and Azem presently work for the same organization under a member of the Convocation. I don't know whether to view that claim with suspicion, as Emet-Selch says everyone gossips about the Fourteen. What are the chances no one would know Themis was Elidibus? On the other hand, Themis acts like it's no big deal if he seizes creative control after Hesperos falls.

One thing I'm very curious / anxious about now is that - in the short story, Lahabrea's phoenix merged with a soul filled with anguish and regret that raged against the call of the Lifestream. They said it was a random passing soul... but what if it wasn't? Or if such a possibility were happening for a reason? (...Athena...?) Eric claims that Lahabrea never grieved her, just took over her position, but Themis claims that despite only knowing Lahabrea through his public persona, his coldness is a likely front - a talent for composure.

Themis argues that someone with powerful mind-altering magicks is behind Eric and Hesperos's minds being fuddled. Does anyone we know fit that bill, or is that the foreshadow? That Eric, Hesperos, and Lahabrea are all heeding whispers that warp their ambition from an unknown third party?

Eric's mind is fuddled because he heard whispers that caused him to lose control and unleash rage from a place of sorrow. That's his ambition; he resents his circumstances. Hesperos did everything he could to be Lahabrea's adopted second son, ever jealous of Eric. That was his ambition. If the whispers / psychic mage are just the final boss, Lahabrea could also be in its grasp with trying to get Athena back as his ambition.

Whatever the case the causal time loop theory seems to be in play; Claudien highlights that regardless of whether the crystal they received was from an Ancient who saw Pandaemonium first-hand or someone manipulating a specific chain of events into a stable pattern from the future, the "present" is based on our successful intervention, we just have to subjectively experience it first-hand to preserve it.

Based on recent forum discussions, I assume if that blue crystal is just from Venat and that's why it suddenly appeared in the sea Sharlayan was observing, to prop up her machination, certain people discontented with Endwalker may be rather salty, depending on the characterization of the act, lol.

The Lahabrea-Athena situation has strong vibes in its setup to the ARR ALC questline, and I fully expect 'Lahabrea!Hephestus' trying to bring back Athena to be behind whatever hinky is going on with Pandaemonium- though my bet is a brought-back wrong Athena with strong shades of Izanami, though we could be going for a Eurydice and a failed retrieval from the Underworld.

Sign me up for 'blank soul crystal was Venat/Hydaelyn, having learned of this issue and the time traveler that solved it from her buddy Themis, and hoping that it gets found somehow by a Warrior of Light.'

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Originally Posted by Theodric

We also know that if any of the Ancients struggled to make use of the power of Creation, they were offered aid in the form of assistance - which is more than can be said of how many of the Sundered opted to treat those who could not wield aether.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Still thinking about the ambiguity of the timeline. Lahabrea - allegedly the one we know - completes the true Phoenix around the time Hades becomes Emet-Selch. Or did he? That experiment was swiftly undone; could we call that a success?

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Just a side note to those musings. I thought it interesting since they both involve Emet and Hythlodaeus.

That we now know (or its more cemented) WHY exactly Hythlodawus enlisted Emet, since he was weak/useless at creation magic itself, but has great sight for seeing souls

I also detect some weird irony or perhaps why Emet was also part of the Garlean empire: We're talking about a race that was gifted in sight (spatial recognition) but could not use magic themselves...