Please implement something to teach players how to play

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

Because the game is way too easy now. You can just mash your controller/keyboard and stumble through every piece of content barring EX/Savage.

There hasn’t been a challenging dungeon in years but the decision to put them all behind MSQ made it even worse. You can’t scale the difficulty too high because then you’d lock players out of finishing the story. So they’re all absolute face roll stuff.

If there’s no in game indicator you’re doing something “wrong” you’ll never be prompted to reevaluate how to get better.

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A major problem with putting those indicators in group content is that when a player hits that wall, it affects more than just the player in question.

Meaning 1 or more of the following could happen:

1. Player with the problem assumes it's someone else. Either due to ego or ignorance

2. Player gets kicked from the dungeon by others who want to go faster - meaning the player doesn't get the ability to learn. Maybe the next group will be able to carry them past that part without any trouble.

3. Other players are impacted. Some don't mind with this happens. Others mind. And those groups don't tend to mix well.

A better place would be in the solo duties in the MSQ and/or the story quests. Where the player can't shift the blame to other players. Where a player can spend the time to get better without fear of being kicked because they wiped again to same mechanic. Where it does not impact other players.

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Originally Posted by Kaylal

Honestly, this is the one factor that may force me to go back to WoW; toxic and grindy, and stupid as it is. There, I don't have to do dungeons if I don't want to. I'm not going to get the best loot and that's fine; I don't need it for open world content. But in FF14 if I want to advance the story, I have no choice; I HAVE to do group content. I have a level 36 character at the moment who hasn't been contacted by a Grand Company...whatever that is, who can't get a mount, who has no idea where to go to see more of the main story and I think I've figured out that it's because I haven't done any dungeons beyond Tam-Tara (although nowhere is that stated in exactly those words...not in any doco, website, youtube video, tutorial or anywhere else). And that makes me very uncomfortable for exactly the expectations expressed by some in this thread. "You're not doing it right!" I don't want to bother other people by not playing they way they expect me to. Nor do I want to have to rely on others to play through the game; I just want to be left alone.

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Kaylal, if you do a google for lancer job quests or drg when you get there, it will tell you places you need to go for your jobs. usually if you check out any blue quest icons you see, those are quite often going to be dungeons you can do along the way.

As for the GC/chocobo, it comes in later now because xp is pretty generous, so although I think it says level 20-25ish, its easy, and likely, you get directed there well past that level. I think when I made another character to run with a friend we were late 30's before we joined a grand company and got the chocobo. If you were on Crystal data center would take you places to make sure you are getting things.

At the end of the day though this is all hopeful dreaming. Squarenix is a japanese company and these problems don't exist at all in the japanese data centers. Not only are the japanese community overall better players (as demonstrated in the Savage clear rates) but also they are a lot less self centered and a lot more respectful of other people's time than the American community. There is a reason why we have the "you don't pay my sub" meme here.

It almost motivates me to try and learn japanese in order to move over to one of their data centers.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

Kaylal, if you do a google for lancer job quests or drg when you get there, it will tell you places you need to go for your jobs. usually if you check out any blue quest icons you see, those are quite often going to be dungeons you can do along the way.

As for the GC/chocobo, it comes in later now because xp is pretty generous, so although I think it says level 20-25ish, its easy, and likely, you get directed there well past that level. I think when I made another character to run with a friend we were late 30's before we joined a grand company and got the chocobo. If you were on Crystal data center would take you places to make sure you are getting things.

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GC and chocobo stuff comes pretty much after bowl of embers (ifrit).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Oh I understand getting the occasional inexperienced tank (even if increasingly less so with levels past their boost when the MSQ experience clearly went to another job).

I just don't understand the hypocrisy of saying that a party asking their tank (who has yet to drop below 80% HP even without getting a single GCD heal during the fight itself) to pull more than a single pack at a time is "forcing" their playstyle upon others and has breached the ToS even while insisting that the tank refusing to pull more, despite being fully able to survive without a single press other than to spam their first AoE button, is somehow blameless.

One is a request that the bottlenecking individual follow majority preferences, at least to the extent possible for that individual. The other is a literal barrier, penetrable only by a kick.

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unless the bottleneck is a complete jerk and toxic as heck... why kick from a 20 minute or so dungeon , just finish and move on.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

these problems don't exist at all in the japanese data centers.

<snip>

It almost motivates me to try and learn japanese in order to move over to one of their data centers.

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If you had learned the language, you'd know otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

unless the bottleneck is a complete jerk and toxic as heck... why kick from a 20 minute or so dungeon , just finish and move on.

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Never said I would. It hardly seems time-efficient in most cases, except on the rare occasion their afk stops or arrogant ravings made the run slower than a tank-less 3-man. That, sadly, has happened on occasion.

I only noted the discrepancy between one "compelled" playstyle being effective only under active measures (reading the chat and actually giving a damn about others in one's party) from the person the playstyle is being requested of and the other being effective at all times except under those active measures from that person. And, of course, the prior then being called a breach of ToA, but not the latter. Such seemed more than a bit hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

I think I recall seeing something about this, but actually acting on it is grey area? I'd like an official response on it, but :)

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if you read the ToS its a VERY broad interpretation of section to apply it to a tank not pulling everything. I have a hard time seeing a GM using that section to enforce anything unless the tank was able.. somehow, to pull the mobs one at a time.

I dont think 'impatience' is considered a good enough reason for a report or action

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If you had learned the language, you'd know otherwise.



Never said I would. It hardly seems time-efficient in most cases, except on the rare occasion their afk stops or arrogant ravings made the run slower than a tank-less 3-man. That, sadly, has happened on occasion.

I only noted the discrepancy between one "compelled" playstyle being effective only under active measures (reading the chat and actually giving a damn about others in one's party) from the person the playstyle is being requested of and the other being effective at all times except under those active measures from that person. And, of course, the prior then being called a breach of ToA, but not the latter. Such seemed more than a bit hypocritical.

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oh, yeah if they are afking and raving lol, definitely need to be somewhere else, I agree. and yeah, seen that too.. or, a tank that from the word go, pulled everything, then left the party... seen that before too, the rest of us were "did that really just happen?"

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

Define 'wrong'

As a tank I keep every mob on me no dropped aggro, but I only did 1-2 packs at a time and not wall to wall. Am I wrong for going at a pace I feel comfortable with and know I will get everyone through the content.

As a DPS am I wrong for singling out that Wasp that has a near OHK first before aoeing everything the tank brought together. Does it take a few extra seconds to get through everything yes, but I killed something that could have messed up how the group was rolling.

As a healer I throw out a GCD barrier a bit more often because I want a little more 'cushion' on the tank's health just incase someone misses a wasp sting or similar, my DPS is slightly down but I minimized the chance of a hiccup, lagspike, etc screwing my healing up by being slightly proactive.

They might not be 'optimal' in many people's eyes, but are those playstyles truly 'wrong'...no.

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There is no argument to be made that pulling one pack at a time is wrong. I know this post was focused on end game stuff, but if pulling only one pack at a time is wrong so is not full clearing a dungeon like Brayflox. Or skipping treasure chests without checking to see if anyone in group might need loot.

Now if you would like the game to teach some things that are different than other MMOs, such as melee positionals and the importance that tanks should stay still when possible, that is a different story. And some of the OP was valid.
But I think this is more of a case where the OP is impatient and should premake his groups/roulettes so they match his playstyle.

And from my limited experience the JP servers seem to be less risk takers, so you are more likely to see smaller tank pulls and less healer dps there at the tradeoff of less deaths. As a small example, they kill the trash in Prae instead of having everyone click through the teleporters

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

One is a request that the bottlenecking individual follow majority preferences, at least to the extent possible for that individual. The other is a literal barrier, penetrable only by a kick.

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It's not a request if a kick is the alternative for rejecting that request. So, yes, only one side is compelling playstyle on others here.

To clarify, let's take a look at the actual rule: "Expressions that compel a playing style."

"Hey, just so you know, since we're a fully geared party, you can and should pull more."
"Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I'm more comfortable with, and so prefer to make, smaller pulls."

Of the above two polite statements, the first comes closer to being an expression that compels a play style as it is telling others what to do while the second is a personal statement.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

@all the people saying "maybe tank/healer is new" please reread the OP and make sure you understand what he is saying. He is talking about level 70-80 dungeons. No one is new at that point.

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Umm, to be fair...you *can* boost to 70. I actually saw a new player who literally did just that, as they wanted to rush into content. They thought that since they were "pros" in WoW that it would be very simple to just boost and be an expert here. lol.

Granted, those are out of the ordinary situations but just wanted to mention for arguments sake. Or could look at me. I did WHM to 74 or so but had been way past MSQ,. so I stopped and didn't want to lv something from scratch. So I did boost warrior from like lv 30-70 and started playing it. Originally lv 70 content felt simple and me OP compared to the 30 content where I didn't have a lot of the mitigation skills and self heals. But then as I got more to 74 and all, I've been a little scared to go in. I think what did it for me was a couple douchebag groups and then another one where I was the one who screwed up on mechanics. A lot of content was kind of a joke but they did increase the difficulty in this newest expansion in regards to mechanics hitting more frequently and all. Once I hit that bit of tankxiety, I boosted Astrologian and made it my main. Been using it quite often and pretty darn good with it.

Anyway, long story just to say it happens but hopefully not frequently.

Every single idea I saw the OP "approve" of would breed runs where "bad" players would be pressure to perform to a standard or either be punished with no clear, or punished with less loot."Good" players also being punished if they happened to be along with "bad" players. Encouraging "good" players to screen people and kick "bad" players.


Why all those quotes? Because at the end of the day this is against the design of the entire game. Like it or not the main story is meant to be progressed by anyone who wants to play the game. Casual to hardcore. You want optimal play? We got extremes and ultimates, as evidenced by their clear rates they are not for everyone. I don't really care if people will say "but they're so easy"... they are apparently not easy for everyone and that's the point. They have unique rewards, time limits, damage checks, all these things that were mentioned and why? Because they are meant for the people who have "standards" and are going for that level of play.


Most roulettes have rewards because they're for filling instances for the clears and to keep old content rolling. Don't like doing runs with random factors? Don't queue them. Make your own parties for "optimal" clears. Yeah it sucks that some people want to be carried through the whole game, but in my opinion I'd rather have lazy people than hostile dictator parties.


I have yet to see one of these solutions that doesn't create an environment that inspires contention between players.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

2. Player gets kicked from the dungeon by others who want to go faster - meaning the player doesn't get the ability to learn. Maybe the next group will be able to carry them past that part without any trouble.

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This one especially. I can't name the number of times where I've been in a party where everyone has at least cleared (so no noob message), we have issues, I offer help and we work things out, and I hear "Thank you! No one ever explained that before!"

There are so many people who complain about "the bads" but they don't bother to do anything to help them. And they hide behind the "We can't tell them anything, we'll get reported!" excuse, but you know what? I've been helping people for 7 years now and I haven't gone to the gaol a single time. I just actually try to help people and come from a position of sharing knowledge, not acting like I know better than them. And people are very receptive when the hand someone is reaching out is open and accepting instead of a fist ready to beat them down.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Then the game needs to do more to keep the good players around. Give players that clear current Raid tier or Ultimate 3 months of free gameplay. Or give them access to a special ward in housing areas where all houses are mansions but cheaper to get so long as you have the corresponding title to buy them.

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Or just make 3 Ultimates every expansion instead of these incentives.

small teeny tiny nitpick to OP: some classes dont actually get an aoe skill until level ~30 (such as MNK/SAM getting their first at 26, NIN at 30 (on mudra cooldown)/it's first aoe GCD death blossom at 38, SMN at 30 with bane (moderate cooldown)/35 for energy siphon (moderate cooldown)/and 40 for outburst--their first aoe GCD, DRG not getting it's first aoe skill until 40 in doom spike), so pulling the whole dungeon and getting mad for them single-targetting miiiight be on you. won't comment on the rest (such as the 70-80's in your clarification, and on an alt of yours?) tho.

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

I've gotten 1 class up to lvl.80, BLM, and I found it interesting that for the first few layers of learning the basic rotation that there was a decent amount of in-game info provided to get the rotation down
- However, upon getting into 2nd and especially 3rd tier abilities, namely lvls 60-80, the information provided dropped off dramatically
- It got to a point where I had to spend a sizable chunk of time in-game, reviewing ability tool tips and experimenting with abilities to really get a feel for them
- And even then, I still wound up needing to go to outside 3rd party sites to really learn more of the scope of the abilities and how to really min/max rotations in various scenarios

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Just to add to this, I’ve done all jobs to 80, and of them I felt BLM is def the most…wonky… of the jobs. Most of the jobs as they level don’t change too much in rotation or just add a few extra gimmicks. BLM’s entire rotation changes once you go from Fire 3 to using Flare correctly, then it changes again when you start using Enochian…so while not hard, there is certainly a little bit more readjusting as you lose access to parts of your rotation with sync’d content.

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Originally Posted by linayar

It's not a request if a kick is the alternative for rejecting that request.

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It is the only alternative by which 3 out of 4 players are not compelled to play the style of the 1 of 4. That does not mean the kick must occur. It only means that it's utter bull to call the alternative, by which the 1 in 4 rules by default, not a compelled play style.

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To clarify, let's take a look at the actual rule: "Expressions that compel a playing style."

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Then we're left with the old "Since only communication is punishable, just kick immediately to ensure there is no context from which intent may be inferred, since blanket reasons for a kick (including "Differing Playstyles) are always protected." Great.

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Of the above two polite statements, the first comes closer to being an expression that compels a play style as it is telling others what to do while the second is a personal statement.

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Equally:
"Myself and the remainder of the party apart from you want X."
"That's nice but I want Y and I have control by default so... /shrug."

So which is more thoroughly compelling one's play style upon others?

No, I get it. The second is protected on a technicality and asking for the odd man out not to force their play style on others is against the ToA. I get that. But that's also complete rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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casual =/= bad at the game

I'll be blunt. I've heard this argument my entire tenure in the game and the answer is the same - they're not going to alienate players by *forcing* players to play to your standard.

If they're clearing content, they're making the bar. There's harder content out there if you want to avoid them, stick to doing that content or stick to your static, if you have one. If you're doing roulettes - you roll the dice. Personally - I'm more concerned with poor attitudes than poor performances - and when I want to avoid both (And/or the DPS queue timer) I leveled up my trusts. I'll take the added dungeon time to avoid the stress when I don't feel like it. On that point - as long as Trusts exist, you're never going to be able to enforce any sort of bar to get people to pass in order to play this game. It may be time to make peace with that.

Content *has* gotten progressively more involved, anyone who's watching the new spike of WoW Streamers play the game can attest to that. And we still have people complaining about the typical pet peeves.

Honestly, there are exceptions to a lot of those complaints and more to be had. A tank that doesn't trust a group or isn't feeling like stressing themselves out will pull slower. A healer not confident in their ability to heal yet will not dps. And those two are the only ones who can judge when they're ready to push themselves. In dungeon content, who cares? If you're that concerned - party with friends and don't rely on randoms who won't always be on par.

Roulette Content as about as casual as you get in this game, so stressing out over it sounds more like a personal problem than a game problem. There are other ways of making in-game currency that don't involve other random people. It may be more worth your while to use them. I do, and I've learned to be much less stressed and judgmental for doing so.

Just be friendly and encourage players to push towards excellence as politely as you can, and learn a little patience on your own end. Use the alternatives available to you if you're not in the mood to tolerate it. I promise you it'll serve you well.

Personally I think they should do away with the lvl 70 boosts and instead sell a fantasia-styled potion that allows you to instantly jump 5 levels or something (obviously at a cheaper price than the boost). That way you could still level at a decent pace to experience new abilities whilst skipping over some of the more boring bits of levelling (i.e. specific dungeon queuing on dps alts for levelling). FYI, I have used a boost on one of my dps after I hit around 30-40 due to bordem/burnout with levelling and I do regret it as I'm instantly level 70 with no clue about proper rotation or nuances of the job (watching videos online to learn before taking it into any group content), but the thought of constantly queuing for dungeons with a potential 10-30 minute each time to get from 40-70 wait was just making me hate the role.

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Just be friendly and encourage players to push towards excellence as politely as you can, and learn a little patience on your own end. Use the alternatives available to you if you're not in the mood to tolerate it. I promise you it'll serve you well.

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<-- this! The game is designed around community and teamwork, lot of players will appreciate you taking a bit of time to help them. Granted, not all will and you will get some that think they are better than you/don't need your advice because they were part of the top guild/group/clan in <insert game here> but unfortunately, that's life - you can't help everyone, but the majority of people will appreciate it and listen providing you are polite and helpful about it).

Plus, not everyone is capable of playing at the same skill level, some may have learning disorders or struggle with certain mechanics (I lose to the "Maths" boss mechanic every time because I struggle to process numbers/maths quickly), others may love their role but be really nervous about it (me with Tanks - love the classes and lore, pretty much anxiety melt-down when tanking in group situations), or there could be other aspects (not avoiding AoE's due to a high ping or hardware performance issues).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It is the only alternative by which 3 out of 4 players are not compelled to play the style of the 1 of 4. That does not mean the kick must occur. It only means that it's utter bull to call the alternative, by which the 1 in 4 rules by default, not a compelled play style.


Then we're left with the old "Since only communication is punishable, just kick immediately to ensure there is no context from which intent may be inferred, since blanket reasons for a kick (including "Differing Playstyles) are always protected." Great.


Equally:
"Myself and the remainder of the party apart from you want X."
"That's nice but I want Y and I have control by default so... /shrug."

So which is more thoroughly compelling one's play style upon others?

No, I get it. The second is protected on a technicality and asking for the odd man out not to force their play style on others is against the ToA. I get that. But that's also complete rubbish.

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It's not a complete rubbish when the role responsibility is distributed that way.

Otherwise, you get "you pull, you tank" mentality (which I disagree with, but I can understand if people are going to play the "you're in the minority" card on tanks).

The tank role is the one that has to make sure to engage all enemies. That's why they're the ones that should determine minimum pull size based on what they're comfortable doing.

Meanwhile, the healer+DPS determines maximum pull size as a limiter to the tank. If the tank pulls more than the party can handle, then it's a wipe.

Taken together, the pull size is what everyone is comfortable with and can handle. Thus, it's a party effort.

On the matter of the kick, if more people are willing to report getting kicks, I'd like to see "differing playstyles" be challenged as it's not an option given in the menu. They should either add it (with user input to clarify) or otherwise clarify the rule uniformly, not just let random GM decide on their own.

With that said, a vote kick is a tool that has been provided, so feel free to use it in the manner not breaking the rules and let the tank find another party if it passes.

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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I play this game casually.

I still care enough about my performance to try.

Taking your hobbies even remotely seriously isn't "hardcore".

I'm a casual wire jeweler. I use expensive materials sometimes. I'm just supposed to wing it when using sterling silver or 14k gold fill?

Casual is time investment, not effort. What the OP is complaining about is lack of effort.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Title. (and no, the smiths outdated tutorial doesn't count)

I'm getting sick of running dungeons, trials, etc. whatever the hell content, and people just don't have a clue.

The usual suspects are out:

- Healer who stands still, doesn't deal damage, cant even keep up with healing
- DPS who single targets mobs when you have like the entire dungeon on you
- Tanks who just sit there and pull 1 group at a time
- People at max level who have no damn idea how to play their class whatsoever (example: Fire 1 Mage at level 80.)

What the hell is going on?

I've been feeling like I'm some crazy elitist just because I have an expectation that you have like an iota of competence.

IDK, detract me. Thanks.

Also, Im not going to bother trying to teach people things in game. Been there, done that. You get screamed at.

TO clarify: I'm mainly concerned about level 70-80 characters having these issues.

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-That Healer might be new to healing or new to the dungeon or new to FFXIV. Usually you can tell when a good healer is just...not dpsing. If they 'can't keep up' then thats a good indicator that they lack experience either in the content or their job.

Unfortunately due to jump/skip potions and trusts, these players may have very little experience playing with others.

-If you have less than 3 mobs, the general consensus is to single-target. But other than that, I feel you on this one. Its terrible when it's BLM, who have such awesome aoe capabilities.

-See first one. Usually a single-pull tank indicates that they may not know the enemy groupings or have lower level gear. It's another lack of experience thing. I don't view it as just blatantly being bad. For some, its a preference.

-Problem is, the game doesn't teach you anything really beyond the very basics in gameplay. There are tons of ways to level in the game where you can basically button mash it (Fates, PotD, HoH, squadrons, Trusts) so people stepping into roulettes for first time get kind of a rude awakening.

In any case, the easiest solution is not to implement more in game development or to depend on a bunch of people to gain more experience but rather to simply....have patience. Or remove yourself from the instance. Or remove them from the instance, if your group is like-minded. *Shrugs*

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Originally Posted by Imora

Casual is time investment, not effort. What the OP is complaining about is lack of effort.

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Casual can be used either way, but casual as time investment is a completely worthless description. It's only useful if it means the type of content you engage with. If you would call someone who only logs in for an hour a week to clear Ultimate a "casual" then the word casual doesn't tell you anything about what type of player they are and there's no point in ever using the word. If someone describes themselves as a casual I'm going to think there is certain content they don't engage with, most likely because of the difficulty. Because that's what it means.

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Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

-That Healer might be new to healing or new to the dungeon or new to FFXIV. Usually you can tell when a good healer is just...not dpsing. If they 'can't keep up' then thats a good indicator that they lack experience either in the content or their job.

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OP is talking about max rank healers (and content ) and I myself have also experienced similar things, be it:

- people with all healers levelled using nothing but cure 1/benefic 1 and medica/helios (!) in late and ilvl locked lvl 80 content, which obviously made it impossible to progress because everyone just ate dirt thanks to all the raidwides the boss used and in one instance, both healers of E12n being this kind of healer who, even after everyone begged them to at least use cure 2/benefic 2 etc, refused to do it and instead responded with snark
- again, at level 80 you should at least your jobs' abilities and have the knowledge that 3+ enemies means that you should AoE and yet, for some people it's an alien concept (though I do have to say this is the thing I've seen the least in all my time playing)
- single pack pulling at 80 does nothing but drain the tanks, healers and dps' resources while also making everything take longer and at that rank, one shouldn't have any kind of tankxiety anymore

the majority of the time, people are helpful and try to nicely point out a supposed problem/issue if they notice it, with only a few times I've seen toxic players screech about something that the player in question either didn't know or had no way of knowing due to being a sprout, but in half of those cases, their helpful advice is just met with rudeness and ego, which could make those helpful players think twice about giving advice to the next person they see
and who can blame those players with an ego? they've cleared, even if it took 15-30 minutes longer than it should've, so the helpful player can't be correct - and all those comms they're getting for their 100% medica 2 and regen uptime means they're REALLY good, right?
but no, seriously, once you see both lvl 70+ red mages in your party hardcast verraise and use the dualcast to vercure the max health tank, only to hardcast verraise AGAIN while 3 people beg them with autotranslation to vercure dualcast verraise, then you might see things from a less than rosy perspective, not to mention hardcasting verthunder and veraero at all times, too. and no, they weren't trolling, having run into one of them a few days later in a lvl 80 roulette where they did the very same thing

I know I shouldn't compare XIV to WoW, but one of the few things they did right was adding a mandatory mini tutorial instance for boosted characters before letting them out in the open, because they'd know the player in question wouldn't know even the basics of basics to how to use the class, let alone letting them queue for roulettes.

That said, there's playing the game casually and then there's literally not doing their job. If, say, a healer is not healing because they're too focused casting their single dps spell*, that's not casual, it's not even minimum effort, it's straight up not caring, and tbh that's not a behavior that should be condoned.

*and no, I don't mean the WHM that will let me drop to ~10% and use Bene, you know which ones I'm talking about.

Yeah won't happen dude. People would rather ERP in Limsa talking about how "bad" their life is instead of learning to play. Sucks but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

Define 'wrong'

As a tank I keep every mob on me no dropped aggro, but I only did 1-2 packs at a time and not wall to wall. Am I wrong for going at a pace I feel comfortable with and know I will get everyone through the content.

As a DPS am I wrong for singling out that Wasp that has a near OHK first before aoeing everything the tank brought together. Does it take a few extra seconds to get through everything yes, but I killed something that could have messed up how the group was rolling.

As a healer I throw out a GCD barrier a bit more often because I want a little more 'cushion' on the tank's health just incase someone misses a wasp sting or similar, my DPS is slightly down but I minimized the chance of a hiccup, lagspike, etc screwing my healing up by being slightly proactive.

They might not be 'optimal' in many people's eyes, but are those playstyles truly 'wrong'...no.

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You’re being intentionally facetious, as are most people in this thread, because it seems to have touched a nerve.

No one, literally no one, said focusing a OHK enemy is the wrong thing to do. Nor is that the point being discussed. What OP is talking about is more how you do it. So you’re taking down this wasp, what are you doing though? Using your full burst damage to kill it before Final Sting? Or are you casting Bio over and over doing no damage until it kills you? The second one is the issue here, but you’re going to keep pretending it’s the first.

You also keep saying “but we cleared it” well, yeah. The content has been dumbed down so much you will clear everything through blunt force. You can queue up premade with a couple of friends and go a whole dungeon using nothing but Total Eclipse, Cure, and Blizzard. Just one move each per class. And you’d get there. But is that really the way the game is meant to be done? Is it really fair on the fourth who’s using all their combos and cooldowns only to have another 30 minutes added on to the run because you can’t read your skill descriptions?

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

To kind of supplement onto this; There is already a system in place in game where you get rewarded for doing things faster.

I think of Castrum LL. You're given the max reward for killing the executioners as fast as possible. I believe someone mentioned that there's something to this effect in Zadnors CLL.

So, this honestly wouldn't hurt. People aren't punished for still managing to complete the objective, they just don't get the maximum possible reward. I've never once seen anyone freak out about failing to clear those instances 100%

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I freak out about it because it's not a skill issue. It's literally a communication issue. Almost every single time when people fail to get all 6 chests, it's not because people are bad. It's because people refuse to talk and communicate and you only get one utterance "NE uwu" out of the entire party of 48. And then no one realized that no one is going to SW and the prisoner just dies. It can be so easily prevented if people *gasp* talked in an MMO. Idk why there are so many introverts in an MMO. Go play a single player game if you don't want to talk lmao

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Originally Posted by Kaylal

After all, I never intend to come back to this dungeon because I *don't* like group content. And that's MY playstyle...

Honestly, this is the one factor that may force me to go back to WoW...

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>plays MMO
>shocked that they have to do content with other human beings.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

Define 'wrong'

As a tank I keep every mob on me no dropped aggro, but I only did 1-2 packs at a time and not wall to wall. Am I wrong for going at a pace I feel comfortable with and know I will get everyone through the content.

As a DPS am I wrong for singling out that Wasp that has a near OHK first before aoeing everything the tank brought together. Does it take a few extra seconds to get through everything yes, but I killed something that could have messed up how the group was rolling.

As a healer I throw out a GCD barrier a bit more often because I want a little more 'cushion' on the tank's health just incase someone misses a wasp sting or similar, my DPS is slightly down but I minimized the chance of a hiccup, lagspike, etc screwing my healing up by being slightly proactive.

They might not be 'optimal' in many people's eyes, but are those playstyles truly 'wrong'...no.

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Wrong, no. Bad, yes.

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

I freak out about it because it's not a skill issue. It's literally a communication issue. Almost every single time when people fail to get all 6 chests, it's not because people are bad. It's because people refuse to talk and communicate and you only get one utterance "NE uwu" out of the entire party of 48. And then no one realized that no one is going to SW and the prisoner just dies. It can be so easily prevented if people *gasp* talked in an MMO. Idk why there are so many introverts in an MMO. Go play a single player game if you don't want to talk lmao

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Then you have 20-30 parties, that while it's still incredibly easy to get all prisoners, it most often ends in a 4 rescue scenario because people intentionally grief and bring bad actions, like Cure III and Cure IV on the same person, or DPS with Lost Bubble and Lost Protect. Zadnor brought a semispammable Death that DPS and Tanks can use and people intentionally don't use it.

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

>plays MMO
>shocked that they have to do content with other human beings.

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Exactly. Watch me playing a single player RPG and then complain about it on a forum because I'm forced to play it alone. Throw in the buzzword gatekeeping for maximum internet points.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

A major problem with putting those indicators in group content is that when a player hits that wall, it affects more than just the player in question.

Meaning 1 or more of the following could happen:

1. Player with the problem assumes it's someone else. Either due to ego or ignorance

2. Player gets kicked from the dungeon by others who want to go faster - meaning the player doesn't get the ability to learn. Maybe the next group will be able to carry them past that part without any trouble.

3. Other players are impacted. Some don't mind with this happens. Others mind. And those groups don't tend to mix well.

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I agree with the sentiment of this but that’s exactly WHY it would be a good thing to have some sort of proper in game tutorial early on. Because the problems you suggest are more likely to come up the further you’re into the game.

If a sprout is using the wrong moves or standing in AOEs during Sastasha I don’t think any sane person will particularly care. They’ll just give them some advice and then it’s up the them whether they listen or not. But if you’re running 70-80 content and clearly don’t have a clue what you’re doing you’re much more likely to be faced with hostility.

And you’re more likely to take even non hostile constructive criticism more poorly yourself at that stage too, as you’ve become used to playing the way you play. And as there’s no in game prompt that forces you to not spam Blizzard II for a whole dungeon and nothing else, well then why should you change right?

Having the game encourage you to learn your skill set properly and have a few more road blocks in terms of difficulty to help you do so wouldn’t lead to more kickings, it would lead to less.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Casual can be used either way, but casual as time investment is a completely worthless description. It's only useful if it means the type of content you engage with. If you would call someone who only logs in for an hour a week to clear Ultimate a "casual" then the word casual doesn't tell you anything about what type of player they are and there's no point in ever using the word. If someone describes themselves as a casual I'm going to think there is certain content they don't engage with, most likely because of the difficulty. Because that's what it means.

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Gonna hard disagree.

That guy playing an hour a week and clearing ultimate is just more efficient with his time.

This is a hobby.

Anyone that doesn't take hobbies seriously enough to want to get decent at them should maybe find something else. It just boggles my mind. How can anyone not want to be good at things they enjoy?

And yes, I know folks that raid log. *Shrugs* i don't call quality of content the differing factor here.

All we end up with in the end is people crying they can't get PF groups or they got kicked or whatever and it's solely because they can't be bothered to take a hobby seriously enough to not be a hinderance.

I just do NOT understand it.

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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but it takes like no effort to play your class efficiently. most people who love their class, like to research into it and play it better.
there are websites with literal pictures of each class rotation and openers/.

https://i.ibb.co/ckqB2P5/Untitled.png
i dont understand this casual = "its ok to be bad". im pretty casual too. i clear 2-3 savages per expansion as healer, but otherwise a complete gardening potato.

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Originally Posted by MrPresident

I agree with the sentiment of this but that’s exactly WHY it would be a good thing to have some sort of proper in game tutorial early on. Because the problems you suggest are more likely to come up the further you’re into the game.

If a sprout is using the wrong moves or standing in AOEs during Sastasha I don’t think any sane person will particularly care. They’ll just give them some advice and then it’s up the them whether they listen or not. But if you’re running 70-80 content and clearly don’t have a clue what you’re doing you’re much more likely to be faced with hostility.

And you’re more likely to take even non hostile constructive criticism more poorly yourself at that stage too, as you’ve become used to playing the way you play. And as there’s no in game prompt that forces you to not spam Blizzard II for a whole dungeon and nothing else, well then why should you change right?

Having the game encourage you to learn your skill set properly and have a few more road blocks in terms of difficulty to help you do so wouldn’t lead to more kickings, it would lead to less.

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I have no problems with things being added to the game to encourage players to get better.

They just need to not be things that require other players in order to complete them.

I also think that all characters should have their skill sets adjusted so that every class has an AoE skill that will work in Sastasha. Brand new players are more likely to take the lesson to use AoE's on mobs of 3+ a lot better than someone who is level 50.

Players shouldn't be currently half way leveled up before they even get their first AoE skill - looking at Lancer/Dragoon here. Some of the players who don't AoE as they should may be players whose first character was a Lancer/Dragoon and they spent a good chunk of their dungeon/trial/etc life not AoE's because they couldn't and therefore developed a bad habit.

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Originally Posted by Seera1024

I also think that all characters should have their skill sets adjusted so that every class has an AoE skill that will work in Sastasha. Brand new players are more likely to take the lesson to use AoE's on mobs of 3+ a lot better than someone who is level 50.

Players shouldn't be currently half way leveled up before they even get their first AoE skill - looking at Lancer/Dragoon here. Some of the players who don't AoE as they should may be players whose first character was a Lancer/Dragoon and they spent a good chunk of their dungeon/trial/etc life not AoE's because they couldn't and therefore developed a bad habit.

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I believe part of the issue is simply people.

I would be willing to bet that a number of people dont aoe simply because its not BIG NUMBERS and so dont see the point
yes, I know the numbers add up, but not for die hard BIG NUMBER dps people, they want those huge numbers on the screen in front of them, aoes are for other people who are useless like healers or maybe a tank so they can get somethings attention.

everyone who is anyone in the dps world knows, its the deeps that keep the games running, its the deeps that kill things and heals and tanks are just someone they have to give a chance to so they can get into a dungeon or raid. lets face it, tank lb? what does it do? protects dps... healer lb? raises dps so they can kill the boss.

aoes are for the dps supporting roles... NOT dps.

(I wish to the gods that I wasnt sure there are some out there that think this lol)

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Originally Posted by Drakonic

Wrong, no. Bad, yes.

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Okay so playing with any sort of caution is bad, got it.

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Originally Posted by Voison

Some people play this game casually, hate to break it to you. Not everyone is going to be up to the same speed as you with the game.

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If you are playing the game casually you are still expected to know how your job works. A fc friend of mine is absolutely terrified of doing anything higher then unsynced SB extremes and usually just does chill activities, yet she still knows how her job works and pulls her weight in the stuff she partiapates in. And she'd be the first one to tell a tank if they are only grabbing one group that they can pull more. Remember that you are playing a game where your actions affect the other 3/7/23/however many people you got in CLL and Dal with you.