Simple Fix to PLD

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

WAR
has higher base HP
5 threat generation skills: (Voke, collusion, weaponskill, Flash, Dps)
3 Damage reduction skills: (Rampart Sentnel and foresight)
1 heal: Second Wind (
Thats it... Thats all it can do.

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Hmm so bloodbath doesn't count as healing now ?

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

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Edit: I am in NO way saying, PLD should be your main tank in CC or AV or whatever, I am saying that it IS ALREADY a very strong class, people just don't know how to play. It doesn't need a "buff" it needs you to "Learn2play" before suggesting revisions to already well balanced features.

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Others covered the rest of that post in spades, but really isn't this the problem, PLD is a tank and the answer is don't use pld as a tank for things?
Does that not seem horribly broken?
Does that not need some work?

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Originally Posted by DoctorMog

I'm sorry, when did we switch to magic resistance? I recall the conversation to be on physical defense.

Anyway...

If your entire basis for PLD needing a buff is magic resistance, then you should have said that.

Everywhere else, PLD is a better, and more versatile tank.

WAR is a better DPS/Tank hybrid.

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It was on dmg mitigation in general.
WAR should not be the definitive answer to tanking, it should be a secondary at most, PLDs traditionally tank and tank well, this is not the case in just FFs but all RPGs that have PLD or a PLD like class. How can anyone say that another job is a better tank and not feel instantly like something is wrong.

Shield your eyes here's some FFXI stuff:
Are there other classes that tank? Hell yea, gods know I loved tanking on thf, nin, dnc, mnk all in XI, but at the end of the day a pld could tank all the same things and if they were decent they'd do it well, the -m/pdt gear more than making them a match for those AoE spells/attks that ate shadows and put down my eva tanks.
You can safely unshield your eyes now.

Really to say, wear more def, your a bad pld, or any of that other crap is just that, it's crap. PLD is broken, we all know it, stop trying to say it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Hmm so bloodbath doesn't count as healing now ?

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I'm more worried about him forgetting Vengeance and Antagonize. Maybe that's why he thinks PLD is good, he knows absolutely nothing about WAR and thinks cover is a "damage reduction" ability.

Featherfoot too.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Dmg reduction has an impact on enmity reduction:
dmg dealt == +enmity while dmg recieved == -enmity
Therefore a dmg reduction trait would help a pld hold hate

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lol I'm sure glad knowledgeable people post on these forums to help shape the future of this game.

I fully support traits for jobs. :) I like this idea, and I only wonder if traits would be quested for, or learned automatically. My hope is that they would be quested for. :)

Edit:
Thinking about it more, I would like one of the traits that PLD gets is a damage buff against undead.

I don't want to go too crazy speculating, so I'll leave it at that. :)

Second Wind and Bloodbath are "instant heal", it's easy to use them without being interrupt by a... for exemple... 100T Swing ?

If you want 20% or more damage reduction, then lower their enmity generation, make it more harder to keep it if you just going to straight tank.

If i only count on Coincutter (and mob similar to him), 20% reduction will make the 3700~ 100T Swing reduce to 3000~ (it's fair i think, and wont one shot you if you're not double melded HP+ materia to reach 4k HP) you can then use now more often your healing spell that will make you generate more enmity, and your AF with all its MP+ will make more sense.

If you're going to reduce damage overall it's would also be better to reduce damage reduction from shield block, and more you're increasing the shield block rate, the less you're getting reduction damage. Perhaps if the mitigation isn't enough you could get some materia damage reduction to socket on a shield or having this effect on an rare/ex shield.
Revamp Aegis Boon, so instead of blocking the next hit with 100% dmg reduction, your block rate and damage mitigation are enhanced (by 20% each ?).


I think the overheal from whm is what make warrior tank far superior, whm hardly fall out of mana, warrior can handle 4~5k damage (he avoid the "one shot" move from boss), paladin have some healing spell, but can hardly use them, either he is silenced or he must move to avoid the boss TPmove, if paladin can straight tank and avoid being one shot from a TPmove he'll be more able to heal himself more often. The other problem with whm is the enmity generation, you have to bring 2 whm if you want to spare some hate. Also give BRD Cure II... (so he can choose between dmg support or healing support).



With all that, the dev's team can also change some mechanics from mobs/boss, like a debuff on you that'll give (magic) defense down, etc... so it doesn't make anyone to overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

Second Wind and Bloodbath are "instant heal", it's easy to use them without being interrupt by a... for exemple... 100T Swing ?

If you want 20% or more damage reduction, then lower their enmity generation, make it more harder to keep it if you just going to straight tank.

If i only count on Coincutter (and mob similar to him), 20% reduction will make the 3700~ 100T Swing reduce to 3000~ (it's fair i think, and wont one shot you if you're not double melded HP+ materia to reach 4k HP) you can then use now more often your healing spell that will make you generate more enmity, and your AF with all its MP+ will make more sense.

If you're going to reduce damage overall it's would also be better to reduce damage reduction from shield block, and more you're increasing the shield block rate, the less you're getting reduction damage. Perhaps if the mitigation isn't enough you could get some materia damage reduction to socket on a shield or having this effect on an rare/ex shield.
Revamp Aegis Boon, so instead of blocking the next hit with 100% dmg reduction, your block rate and damage mitigation are enhanced (by 20% each ?).


I think the overheal from whm is what make warrior tank far superior, whm hardly fall out of mana, warrior can handle 4~5k damage (he avoid the "one shot" move from boss), paladin have some healing spell, but can hardly use them, either he is silenced or he must move to avoid the boss TPmove, if paladin can straight tank and avoid being one shot from a TPmove he'll be more able to heal himself more often. The other problem with whm is the enmity generation, you have to bring 2 whm if you want to spare some hate. Also give BRD Cure II... (so he can choose between dmg support or healing support).



With all that, the dev's team can also change some mechanics from mobs/boss, like a debuff on you that'll give (magic) defense down, etc... so it doesn't make anyone to overpowered.

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Don't agree with this pld shouldn't loose enmity cause they take less dmg the class is built for nothing but doing that, that would be silly to do. That's like saying PLD's in XI should have had less hate gaining skill cause the took the least dmg out of any job in the game...

I mean, if you're just straight tanking so your principal job is to deal atleast with enmity generation, or you won't get fun at all playing with it standing right there. Actually the enmity is not so good, but that's because you can not use all your skills if you have to avoid some TPmove.

You can:

- Reduce enmity generation from cure spells (for whm).
- Give bard cure II, so it'll help a bit with enmity from whm.
- Give an enmity skills that'll last 30s and recast is 30s and enhance enmity generation from some skills.
- reduce enmity generation from some skills (generate less enmity overall, but use a skill to keep it up as it was before)

Note: some skills = Sames skills

People just plain dont know how to play PLD now is all. I come across this almost every random AF nm shout group I join. They have no clue how to kite without taking dmg, they cant hold hate "but im spamming every hate ability I got" youd be suprised how many times that line is used by alot of you PLD out there xP & their PLDs are geared to deal dmg like they ever gona compete with actual dd's. How many of you plds stacking STR/MND, VIT/STR or VIT/MND? or even worse stacking HP?

DEX/VIT xP give it a try cause if you not @300+ DEX why bother carrying your shield around?

860+ DEF
+71 Enmity
325 VIT
310 DEX
470 Magic Evasion
after buff/food no meds & none of its darklight gear

Theres my main stats on PLD and I have 0 problem with tanking and dd's arent asked to hold back. As for someone saying PLD takes same dmg as WAR lol this is not true by a long shot when your partially blocking nearly ever attack and full blocking + much higher DEF. For example last night 5 maned Great Buffalo for fun with my PLD and just 1 WHM. You partially block Onrush 1200 dmg Onrush deals 2500 dmg. At a rough glance Id say I partially blocked or full blocked 60-70% of all his attacks? Very rough guess after going through my log after the fight, but my partials happen alot. I know great buffalo is old news but it still hits like a truck & its what I most recently did checking my log after the fight.

Hope it helps some of you out there who are having trouble with your PLD ^^ obviously your shield is key, but also takes skill with timing/spacing out your abilities.

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

People just plain dont know how to play PLD now is all. I come across this almost every random AF nm shout group I join. They have no clue how to kite without taking dmg, they cant hold hate "but im spamming every hate ability I got" youd be suprised how many times that line is used by alot of you PLD out there xP & their PLDs are geared to deal dmg like they ever gona compete with actual dd's. How many of you plds stacking STR/MND, VIT/STR or VIT/MND? or even worse stacking HP?

DEX/VIT xP give it a try cause if you not @300+ DEX why bother carrying your shield around?

860+ DEF
+71 Enmity
325 VIT
310 DEX
470 Magic Evasion
after buff/food no meds & none of its darklight gear

Theres my main stats on PLD and I have 0 problem with tanking and dd's arent asked to hold back. As for someone saying PLD takes same dmg as WAR lol this is not true by a long shot when your partially blocking nearly ever attack and full blocking + much higher DEF. For example last night 5 maned Great Buffalo for fun with my PLD and just 1 WHM. You partially block Onrush 1200 dmg Onrush deals 2500 dmg. At a rough glance Id say I partially blocked or full blocked 60-70% of all his attacks? Very rough guess after going through my log after the fight, but my partials happen alot. I know great buffalo is old news but it still hits like a truck & its what I most recently did checking my log after the fight.

Hope it helps some of you out there who are having trouble with your PLD ^^ obviously your shield is key, but also takes skill with timing/spacing out your abilities.

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I don't think you get it. A WAR can do better in a shorter time.

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

At a rough glance Id say I partially blocked or full blocked 60-70% of all his attacks? Very rough guess after going through my log after the fight, but my partials happen alot.

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Would you please elaborate on the difference between a partial block and a full block? Thanks in advance.

Also, why block Onrush (and care about the mitigation you can get on it) when you can dodge it, or even better, completely eliminate it from the fight? I hope you see how this is relevant to the current dungeons and bosses, and the situation the two tanks are in.

How about giving PLD a series of Barrier Spells?


Barrier: Provides damage reduction againts physical attacks. (PLD lvl 50)

MBarrier: Provides damages reduction againts magical attacks. (PLD lvl 65)

Wall: Provides damage reduction againts all attacks. (PLD level 90)


Just an idea, might be more fun then having a trait.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

Second Wind and Bloodbath are "instant heal", it's easy to use them without being interrupt by a... for exemple... 100T Swing ?

If you want 20% or more damage reduction, then lower their enmity generation, make it more harder to keep it if you just going to straight tank.

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PLD already requires more than straight tanking to keep hate. It doesn't need it to be even more difficult when compared to WAR. I feel sorry for the controller users out there(if there are any when on a PLD).

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

If you're going to reduce damage overall it's would also be better to reduce damage reduction from shield block, and more you're increasing the shield block rate, the less you're getting reduction damage. Perhaps if the mitigation isn't enough you could get some materia damage reduction to socket on a shield or having this effect on an rare/ex shield.
Revamp Aegis Boon, so instead of blocking the next hit with 100% dmg reduction, your block rate and damage mitigation are enhanced (by 20% each ?).

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Shield Blocking is already hard to pull off without abilities and the damage reduction isn't that great either. I also think Aegis Boon is fine and doesn't need to be another type of outmaneuver. PLD doesn't need a complete rework, just more tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

The other problem with whm is the enmity generation, you have to bring 2 whm if you want to spare some hate.(so he can choose between dmg support or healing support).

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People don't bring 2 WHMS because of the hate on Cure. A WAR laughs at almost everybody on the battlefield that thinks they can pull hate from him/her. Only PLD have the hate controlling issues when compared. Even that BLM using his mighty combos isn't as much of a problem with a WAR Tank.


So in other words, I think what you suggest will create more problems, without fixing much, and still leave us Tanks(that would prefer to tank as a PLD) behind the WARs overall.

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Originally Posted by Heaven

How about giving PLD a series of Barrier Spells?


Barrier: Provides damage reduction againts physical attacks. (PLD lvl 50)

MBarrier: Provides damages reduction againts magical attacks. (PLD lvl 65)

Wall: Provides damage reduction againts all attacks. (PLD level 90)


Just an idea, might be more fun then having a trait.

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IF they did something like this, it would probably only increase magical defense. We already have Rampart which increases physical defense. If anything, a trait that augments Rampart to include magical damage would be more fitting.

Also, I don't know where people are getting this "Enmity is the problem!" crap. It might not be the same as WAR, but PLD will still get the job done.

I do agree with the OP. A higher damage reduction either through traits or skills. Even fixing how DEF works and adding MDEF to Rampart for PLD only is a good start.

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

People just plain dont know how to play PLD now is all. I come across this almost every random AF nm shout group I join. They have no clue how to kite without taking dmg, they cant hold hate "but im spamming every hate ability I got" youd be suprised how many times that line is used by alot of you PLD out there xP & their PLDs are geared to deal dmg like they ever gona compete with actual dd's. How many of you plds stacking STR/MND, VIT/STR or VIT/MND? or even worse stacking HP?

DEX/VIT xP give it a try cause if you not @300+ DEX why bother carrying your shield around?

860+ DEF
+71 Enmity
325 VIT
310 DEX
470 Magic Evasion
after buff/food no meds & none of its darklight gear

Theres my main stats on PLD and I have 0 problem with tanking and dd's arent asked to hold back. As for someone saying PLD takes same dmg as WAR lol this is not true by a long shot when your partially blocking nearly ever attack and full blocking + much higher DEF. For example last night 5 maned Great Buffalo for fun with my PLD and just 1 WHM. You partially block Onrush 1200 dmg Onrush deals 2500 dmg. At a rough glance Id say I partially blocked or full blocked 60-70% of all his attacks? Very rough guess after going through my log after the fight, but my partials happen alot. I know great buffalo is old news but it still hits like a truck & its what I most recently did checking my log after the fight.

Hope it helps some of you out there who are having trouble with your PLD ^^ obviously your shield is key, but also takes skill with timing/spacing out your abilities.

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Screenshot of gear and stats please. What are you wearing exactly that lets you hit these stats?

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Also, I don't know where people are getting this "Enmity is the problem!" crap. It might not be the same as WAR, but PLD will still get the job done.

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It's not THE problem but it is A problem when it is compared to a WAR. PLD requires so much more to keep hate unlike a WAR that can just slap the mob around and says "Who's your daddy!" every 15 seconds.

Looking at your sig it lets me know you do see the effort needed to play the job lmao.

The job can do well without being as simple as a WAR, which is why I also agree with the OP.

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

I have 0 problem with tanking and dd's arent asked to hold back..

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as a dd i know i need to hold back when that little hate box goes red. you don't need to ask me.

and because you don't ask me to hold back doesnt mean i dont do it. if that box goes red i lay off the damage dealing to help keep the fight under control. it's what all good dds do.

and its so much easier to have that box go red with a paladin tank. than a warrior.

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

People just plain dont know how to play PLD now is all. I come across this almost every random AF nm shout group I join. They have no clue how to kite without taking dmg, they cant hold hate "but im spamming every hate ability I got" youd be suprised how many times that line is used by alot of you PLD out there xP & their PLDs are geared to deal dmg like they ever gona compete with actual dd's. How many of you plds stacking STR/MND, VIT/STR or VIT/MND? or even worse stacking HP?

DEX/VIT xP give it a try cause if you not @300+ DEX why bother carrying your shield around?

860+ DEF
+71 Enmity
325 VIT
310 DEX
470 Magic Evasion
after buff/food no meds & none of its darklight gear

Theres my main stats on PLD and I have 0 problem with tanking and dd's arent asked to hold back. As for someone saying PLD takes same dmg as WAR lol this is not true by a long shot when your partially blocking nearly ever attack and full blocking + much higher DEF. For example last night 5 maned Great Buffalo for fun with my PLD and just 1 WHM. You partially block Onrush 1200 dmg Onrush deals 2500 dmg. At a rough glance Id say I partially blocked or full blocked 60-70% of all his attacks? Very rough guess after going through my log after the fight, but my partials happen alot. I know great buffalo is old news but it still hits like a truck & its what I most recently did checking my log after the fight.

Hope it helps some of you out there who are having trouble with your PLD ^^ obviously your shield is key, but also takes skill with timing/spacing out your abilities.

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Let's address some of these points, shall we? I'm not going to argue that there aren't pople who don't know how to play PLD well- it's not so obvious as faceroll WAR tank after all.

Then, let's get to your suggestion of stacking VIT/DEX. Funny, is the first word that comes to mind. Next is late.

Let's first talk about stacking DEX on PLD, and how much of a waste of stats it turns out to be especially at level 50. There was even a dev post stating how diminished the effect of DEX is on block rate at higher levels as opposed to stacking more Block Rate. Put that aside, PLD has no trouble getting blocks, what with Aegis Boon, Divine Veil and Outmaneuver. I've got nothing on extra DEX for PLD and I block very often.

You know what tends to be the most devastating attacks bosses have, that also happen to be impossible to block with a shield? Magical attacks. Honestly, read the thread more. PLD has no issue mitigating physical damage. Magical damage on the other hand, not so good.

Also VIT, I won't bash so much. Personally I do VIT/MND, though I am considering STR/MND. MND makes the most sense of all the stats, as PLD is meant to be healing very often and also MND is a bonus attribute to damage as well, which helps enmity both directly and as a boost to the combo bonus of Flat Blade. Thing is, VIT also doesn't provide much in the way of damage mitigation at higher levels. Now I was mistaken about Defense being effected by dLv, but I'm pretty sure I read dLv plays a large role in how much mitigation VIT provides. Please correct me if I'm wrong again Kaeko.

Enmity overall isn't the issue with PLD. It's just not so obvious as WAR, who simply does high DPS and enhances the enmity generation of it with Vengeance and Sentinel. Plain and simple. PLD requires more clever use of enmity bonuses. Did you know the enmity bonus of Flat Blade, which was recently adjusted, is now 4.5x damage done. So say you do 200 damage with Flat Blade. The bonus is then 4.5 x 200 = 900. This bonus is added to the enmity generated purely through damage, and thus Flat Blade in that instance grants you 200 + 900 = 1100 enmity. With repeated use of Rampart, War Drum, Flash and repeated heals PLD should have no trouble keeping hate on multiple mobs as well.

I'm in support of OP

They did PLD so well in FFXI in non-zerg content that I'm depressed that it wasn't done even better in this game. It had much more potential with less "limitations" due to not having a forced subjob.

All they really need to do is give it more HP (like it should have), more MP, http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Palisade, http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Chivalry, http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Guardian, higher damage reduction (even though enmity isn't a laaaaaarge problem, it just basically gives a bonus to it) the set effect from XI's empyrean armor (occasionally converts damage taken to HP, not as broken as it sounds) and more people learn the utility of it and it's set. (I've seen and played with amazing PLDs on some raids so far, so there IS still a player aspect that's making PLD out to be worse than it is.)

The only reason PLD suffers fundamentally in general is because of the game design, which benefits warrior a lot more than PLD. It would be the same issue if Ninja was released and was designed as a tank, unless it did heavy DD it won't stand a chance against WAR, simply because of game design.

Well to the OP that is a good Idea but a simple fix would be give gla/pld a +enmity stat raise to the class @ the base of the job that way all the hate tools pld/gla have more enmity. In our shell the problem with pld tank is they can't hold hate as well in a stationary battle. Look at ifrit for example get a badass pld tank go in with tank 2whm 5thm setup, play as one of the thm you may get off 3-6 spells in a row before you have to stop casting, ifrit will be all red hate on you... Use the same setup with a WAR tank and you will note a noticeably huge difference at how long you can cast as well as stay out of the red. We got ifrit to do spikes at 28:10 going donkey out WAR tank held it the whole time. It was amazing!! pld tank just can't do it.
ATM I would say pld is better for kite fights and WAR better for stationary fights.

I think the way Paladin needs to be is similar to how it was in FFXI for the majority of its life: "good enough that even lazy paladins can tank decently, so that a good paladin cannot be matched in tanking ability while a good party doesn't necessarily need it."

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You see, WAR is not difficult. When tanking on WAR, you're actually just being a DD that doesn't manage enmity, instead thrives on it (sound familiar?), and you're going apeshit while you act as a damage sponge with your large pool of HP. In short, as a WAR you're just facerolling the keyboard. Just blarghwrwujyerrwuknfdv... so to speak. A PLD on the other hand plays more like NNGGGFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!... as you try ever so hard to make sure you're following the right cooldowns, stacking the right skills, and more importantly than the rest, curing yourself with Holy Succor every chance you get to make sure you stay alive due to what little HP you have. It's hectic. So while it's more effortless and direct on WAR, it's much more work and less obvious on PLD. Right now, that may seem unjustified, unbalanced, unfair... un-whatever. What I see there is not a problem though, but an opportunity so to speak. There's a clear distinction between WAR and PLD as tanks. They're inherently different in style and use- or meant to be.

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Though I still agree with you overall about PLD needing stuff and whatnot, this is false, at least for me and my fellow warriors: I never ever faceroll when tanking as Warrior, and I don't know anyone that does, we're just as methodological as a good Paladin is...

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Originally Posted by Wevlum

Even if it doesn't solve the PLD problem I'd like the idea of jobs having their own trait (currently only classes have traits). Be even better if they passed on their trait in the form of a slightly watered down version to their party; i.e. if PLD's ...IM A PLD? trait is -25% damage reduction everyone else in party might get a -10% damage reduction just from having a PLD in the party.

It'd also encourage people to not class stack since you only get one party trait per job i.e. having two PLDs is still -10% damage reduction not 20. Also yeah jobs not classes because jobs are supposedly supposed to be the preferred party class so bonuses to the party for using a job rather than just personal bonuses would be nice.

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That would be worthy of its own thread too.

I still think PLD need a weapon skill where the damage modifier is the current enmity you have on a target.

More enmity = higher damage
High damage = more enmity
If you have no enmity on the target it does weak damage.

Let it cap at 1500 damage or something.

YESH!!!!

Then more peeps would say OMGPLDFTW!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Andrien

I still think PLD need a weapon skill where the damage modifier is the current enmity you have on a target.

More enmity = higher damage
High damage = more enmity
If you have no enmity on the target it does weak damage.

Let it cap at 1500 damage or something.

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I was assuming SE woulda been wise enough to reintroduce Atonement, aka exactly what you're talking about. It not only lets PLD do consistent damage, it further increases and keeps their enmity intact.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Let's address some of these points, shall we? I'm not going to argue that there aren't pople who don't know how to play PLD well- it's not so obvious as faceroll WAR tank after all.

Then, let's get to your suggestion of stacking VIT/DEX. Funny, is the first word that comes to mind. Next is late.

Let's first talk about stacking DEX on PLD, and how much of a waste of stats it turns out to be especially at level 50. There was even a dev post stating how diminished the effect of DEX is on block rate at higher levels as opposed to stacking more Block Rate. Put that aside, PLD has no trouble getting blocks, what with Aegis Boon, Divine Veil and Outmaneuver. I've got nothing on extra DEX for PLD and I block very often.

You know what tends to be the most devastating attacks bosses have, that also happen to be impossible to block with a shield? Magical attacks. Honestly, read the thread more. PLD has no issue mitigating physical damage. Magical damage on the other hand, not so good.

Also VIT, I won't bash so much. Personally I do VIT/MND, though I am considering STR/MND. MND makes the most sense of all the stats, as PLD is meant to be healing very often and also MND is a bonus attribute to damage as well, which helps enmity both directly and as a boost to the combo bonus of Flat Blade. Thing is, VIT also doesn't provide much in the way of damage mitigation at higher levels. Now I was mistaken about Defense being effected by dLv, but I'm pretty sure I read dLv plays a large role in how much mitigation VIT provides. Please correct me if I'm wrong again Kaeko.

Enmity overall isn't the issue with PLD. It's just not so obvious as WAR, who simply does high DPS and enhances the enmity generation of it with Vengeance and Sentinel. Plain and simple. PLD requires more clever use of enmity bonuses. Did you know the enmity bonus of Flat Blade, which was recently adjusted, is now 4.5x damage done. So say you do 200 damage with Flat Blade. The bonus is then 4.5 x 200 = 900. This bonus is added to the enmity generated purely through damage, and thus Flat Blade in that instance grants you 200 + 900 = 1100 enmity. With repeated use of Rampart, War Drum, Flash and repeated heals PLD should have no trouble keeping hate on multiple mobs as well.

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Saying block > dex for proc rate is like saying att > str or whatever other specific trait youd like vs its corresponding attribute at higher levels for those that apply right? Everything is diminished when you take a r50 and stick it in front of say Ifrit lol doesnt mean its not increased but I could be mistaken. Wish I could get more block+ besides sentinel gear because Id love to not stack so much DEX. I'm glad you tested this yourself because now Ill just ignore my huge increase in partial and full block rate after constantly testing with 310 DEX vs 190/213 DEX when not using shield abilites or when those abilities are never on cooldown. For most people testing an attribute ends with putting on 2 matching rings for a few fights and crying that they dont make a difference. Sorry I dont cling to the absolute specifics others post or do that parser thing lol im old fashioned xP I go out and test for myself on monsters 50+ and Boss/NMs go back in my log and write down totals and do some averages. I find it fun ^^ next is evasion for me.

Only magic attacks in the game that give me problems are chimeras WAR and PLD both gota run like chickens for those. Nothing else coming to mind atm iunno what else gives you magic problems? Most others hit me good enough to actually leave room for me to cure myself before a healer caps me off which is a great enmity tool. I did read the thread its the same as the rest of them QQ PLD and the whole "vastly inferior" thing lol. I just dont feel the same way ^^; and Im sorry for choosing your thread to say I disagree xP. Only true advantage I find is in the base HP. Id love to have more than 3400 without slapping on dbl hp meld set. I wish they didnt get rid of shell even though you can pop an ironwill pancea if magic damage is your problem lol not sure if it actually gives magic def but it says effect of shell :P I havent used them myself yet but I did find it cute with the whole assuming I dont know my head from my ass when it comes to shield and magic attacks :) made me laugh.

Your right WAR is easier to play lol I play them both but to be fair I havent dived into WAR equip as much as PLD and I find the skill level, timing and attension I need to give my WAR while tanking to be far less than what PLD demands so is that the answer people want? make PLD simple like WAR to be far superior? I dont mind either tanking lol I find them both to be good if played properly. I personally dislike healing WAR vs PLD for whatever thats worth lol since Ive got to heal maybe 2? good PLD so far post revamp. Only thing Id like to see is cover be made useful lol WARs tanking abilities are all useful so Id like to see cover redone at least.

"repeated use of rampart, war drum & flash" cooldowns? I know I got them. Also the Flat Blade thing leaves me confused so if you deal dmg/generate x amount of enmity on a single target that same enmity spreads to all surrounding enemies when poping said aoe abilities? I might be reading what you said wrong about Flat Blade into the "repeated" ability thing for AOE tanking. AOE tanking is all WAR which is fine cause I like aoe collusion off the BLM and cyclone on my WAR by the time PLD AOE abilties cooldown is up theres already way too much AOE dmg thrown around for them to pull hate back ; ; Ive tried. It just gets old with all the constant PLD gimp everywhere I turn in game and here on forums when it really isnt.

Oh id very much like a link on the whole DEX Block diminished thing posted by a dev if anyone would be so kind ^^ I miss alot and was just trying to help out other PLD with another option to try for themselves. I've tried other builds and they failed so I now personally consider them to be wrong for PLD :P perhaps a bad choice of words. My setup and play for PLD has been working & I get positive /tells from many random players on my PLD lol mostly WHM on how easy it is to heal me. I do alot of random pickups a day when Im on usually so Im always dealing with tons of different ways to do things.

Sorry for the long post :P my boredom level is at an all time high now with very little left I want to play ; ;

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Originally Posted by Stufoo

Would you please elaborate on the difference between a partial block and a full block? Thanks in advance.

Also, why block Onrush (and care about the mitigation you can get on it) when you can dodge it, or even better, completely eliminate it from the fight? I hope you see how this is relevant to the current dungeons and bosses, and the situation the two tanks are in.

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Full block will block the entire attack dealing you 0 dmg. Partial block cuts the damage you would have taken in 1/2 roughly. On the higher lvl NM or Boss types I get far more partials vs fulls compared to the r50-60 normal enemies because their stats are way higher I assume or like the OP said diminished results vs the higher stuff.

I take Onrush to test shield proc of partials and fulls against TP moves and the dmg I take. I normally dodge the long TP moves.

i just fully agree with op

I know a good number of PLDs who were once on the DEX bandwagon, but have now come to their senses and switched over. To each his own I suppose.

Although from your analogy of block rate to DEX being like attack to STR, as well as other statements scattered throughout your post its safe to say you're not familiar with what detailed testing we already have available as far as stats and attribute points go. You may enjoy your old fashioned testing, but there are many reasons to parse such testing; a larger trial count being a primary one.

Now you can enjoy your delusion that PLD is perfectly balanced and worthwhile and that pretty much nobody but you knows how to play it right/well... but the rest of us who know the nitty gritty of many of the quantitative details behind this game can hold our discussion.

Also, no idea how you read my OP and came to the conclusion that it was another QQ thread, but oh well lol.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I know a good number of PLDs who were once on the DEX bandwagon, but have now come to their senses and switched over. To each his own I suppose.

Although from your analogy of block rate to DEX being like attack to STR, as well as other statements scattered throughout your post its safe to say you're not familiar with what detailed testing we already have available as far as stats and attribute points go. You may enjoy your old fashioned testing, but there are many reasons to parse such testing; a larger trial count being a primary one.

Now you can enjoy your delusion that PLD is perfectly balanced and worthwhile and that pretty much nobody but you knows how to play it right/well... but the rest of us who know the nitty gritty of many of the quantitative details behind this game can hold our discussion.

Also, no idea how you read my OP and came to the conclusion that it was another QQ thread, but oh well lol.

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I wanna see this vid with all these blocks this pld is doing vs bosses w/o skills. Please post parse or video.

@ the person who says you don't have to hold back with war tank is bs lol.

NoctisUmbra, Here are a few changes i think they need to make and i also think pld is fighting vs this crappy dlvl/system mechanics more than any other job/class in the game also.

1. Spirits combo needs to do dmg base on enmity and lock the dmg at an 500-700 dmg cap.

2. Block rate this needs to be fixed. Shield is an paper weight.

3. Something needs to be done about magic dmg. Let shield block all attacks even magic.

4 This goes for all classes the traits with stats attached to them need to be Tweaked so classes stand out from each other, every class in xi had traits that made them stand out from other classes, the bonuses we have from traits do jack shit to make the classes stand out except the ones that enhance skills. Like in xi a naked pld could have something like 200 def with nothing on, or people know drgs was one of the only classes who didn't really need to stack acc or DRK had stupid high attack or RDM cast spells the fastest. what we have now is crappy triats with low stat modifiers and such.

5. many may not agree but i think some of Gla Tanking skills need to be locked to its class only like Rampart. I honestly feel like War should be tanking with pure dmg and fewer hate gaining skills, not with pure dmg and hp gaining skills and hate skills and dmg reduction skills makes no sense. I feel war has the same options as pld but better. would love if Se made Sent GLA only to kick that crutch from all most of the players in the game. So pld should be lower hp dmg reduction and healing. War should be Few hate gaining skill with hate through dmg and higher hp. Currently WAR does everything a pld does but better, that is taking less dmg dealing more dmg and hell i think it prob heals it self better with crts lol.

The only full block you can achieve since 1.19 is through Aegis Boon. Every other block in the game has to be a 'partial block'. Takes about 15 minutes of 'testing' (more like eyeballing) to figure this out.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I wanna see this vid with all these blocks this pld is doing vs bosses w/o skills. Please post parse or video.

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I never made such a claim. I'm saying DEX barely does anything to block rate, and to notice any worthwhile difference you need to stack massive amounts of it. Even then it doesn't compare to the number of blocks you'll be getting through skills, and thus there are better things to stack given the choice. Again, to each his own.

This thread is not about the discussion of block rates. It is about the clear inferiority of PLD as a tank in comparison to WAR, and how hased on design philosophy and some applied logic the only way to fix this is by making it viable to bring 1 less WHM to any party that is using a PLD tank as opposed to a WAR tank. My proposition to satisfy that condition was a global % based damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

Full block will block the entire attack dealing you 0 dmg. Partial block cuts the damage you would have taken in 1/2 roughly. On the higher lvl NM or Boss types I get far more partials vs fulls compared to the r50-60 normal enemies because their stats are way higher I assume or like the OP said diminished results vs the higher stuff.

I take Onrush to test shield proc of partials and fulls against TP moves and the dmg I take. I normally dodge the long TP moves.

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Also, I'm pretty sure how much damage a partial block cuts is based on the Block value of your shield as well as dLv.

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Originally Posted by jwang

Screenshot of gear and stats please. What are you wearing exactly that lets you hit these stats?

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Sorry no pic :/

Protect & La Noscean Toast with my setup gives me "delicious" @+50 DEF & +7 VIT gota do a little more DEF to hit "divine"

Alloted 23 DEX 22 VIT

Main: Cobalt Winglet +1 +22 Enmity
Shield: Kite +1 +34 DEF
Head: Sentinel +21 Magic Evasion (up to 7 busts on this dbl attempt lol so its just @1 for now)
Body: Sentinel +20 VIT (busted 1 so far attempting dbl lol again hesitant so just @1 for now)
Waist: Sentinel +20 Enmity
Hands: Sentinel +35 DEX
Legs: Felt Trouser +1 +16 VIT +16 DEX
Feet: Sentinel +45 Magic Evasion
Ear: Stonewall/Black Pearl +1 (if I can ever dbl meld helm Ill prolly go with Black Pearl for 500+ Magic Evasion)
Neck: Stonewall
Wrist: Coral Armillae +1
Ring: Spinal +1 x2

Hope thats good enough < > I'm still playing around alot with my PLD gear

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I never made such a claim. I'm saying DEX barely does anything to block rate, and to notice any worthwhile difference you need to stack massive amounts of it. Even then it doesn't compare to the number of blocks you'll be getting through skills, and thus there are better things to stack given the choice. Again, to each his own.

This thread is not about the discussion of block rates. It is about the clear inferiority of PLD as a tank in comparison to WAR, and how hased on design philosophy and some applied logic the only way to fix this is by making it viable to bring 1 less WHM to any party that is using a PLD tank as opposed to a WAR tank. My proposition to satisfy that condition was a global % based damage reduction.

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My bad noct that was not directed @ you also re read my comment. I should have stated that.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Also, I'm pretty sure how much damage a partial block cuts is based on the Block value of your shield as well as dLv.

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No clue xP I just go off the dmg numbers I see and its easier to see the difference for me through TP dmg which Im sure varies, but has been roughly 1/2 taken on them lol Im terrible at specifics. I'm also sorry for derailing your thread it seems peoples responses to my post are heading that way, so Ill stop posting now ^^

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

Sorry no pic :/

Protect & La Noscean Toast with my setup gives me "delicious" @+50 DEF & +7 VIT gota do a little more DEF to hit "divine"

Alloted 23 DEX 22 VIT

Main: Cobalt Winglet +1 +22 Enmity
Shield: Kite +1 +34 DEF
Head: Sentinel +21 Magic Evasion (up to 7 busts on this dbl attempt lol so its just @1 for now)
Body: Sentinel +20 VIT (busted 1 so far attempting dbl lol again hesitant so just @1 for now)
Waist: Sentinel +20 Enmity
Hands: Sentinel +35 DEX
Legs: Felt Trouser +1 +16 VIT +16 DEX
Feet: Sentinel +45 Magic Evasion
Ear: Stonewall/Black Pearl +1 (if I can ever dbl meld helm Ill prolly go with Black Pearl for 500+ Magic Evasion)
Neck: Stonewall
Wrist: Coral Armillae +1
Ring: Spinal +1 x2

Hope thats good enough < > I'm still playing around alot with my PLD gear

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Just gonna link this here for you so you can stop trying to say more def and dex is gonna help you. http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

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Originally Posted by Firon

Just gonna link this here for you so you can stop trying to say more def and dex is gonna help you. http://kanican.livejournal.com/55915.html

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Thanks for linking it Firon. I'm outside now and checking in with my phone when I can.

I'll make another major post to clarify some points of mine and adress others when I get home, but in the mean time I ask everyone to please refrain from derailing the discussion of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadySaeko

Full block will block the entire attack dealing you 0 dmg. Partial block cuts the damage you would have taken in 1/2 roughly. On the higher lvl NM or Boss types I get far more partials vs fulls compared to the r50-60 normal enemies because their stats are way higher I assume or like the OP said diminished results vs the higher stuff.

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Please learn how the game works before commenting on the state of a job that is in need of just a little bit more help. There is no such thing as "partial" block or parry, those are just normal blocks and parries. "Partially" is just flavor text for when things don't do zero damage. Just because you have sentinel rampart and stoneskin on yourself and it doesn't break doesn't suddenly make it a "full block". You are gravely overstating PLD's defensive capabilities with shield mitigation through complete ignorance and rough eyeballing, shields sure as hell don't stop half the damage on a boss.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

The only full block you can achieve since 1.19 is through Aegis Boon. Every other block in the game has to be a 'partial block'. Takes about 15 minutes of 'testing' (more like eyeballing) to figure this out.

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Even deflection only stopped 792 damage! Again Lady, partial is only flavor text.

PLD's problem is not survivability, IMO, so a straight damage reduction would not "fix" the job and make ppl want it over WAR. I mean yeah, on Coincounter or other mobs with very hard hitting moves (can't think of any others, actually), damage reduction would help. But that's one fight.

The problem i see is not a problem with the job itself, but the content that is available. A lot of things in this game focus more on killing fast (lots of the time with AOE's) and less on survivability. A PLD is not known for his damage, so why take one when it just gimps your damage output and a WAR can take the hits just fine for the amount time it takes the mob to die? And by no means am i saying PLD needs to put out more damage...i think it's just a matter of right now more fights favor WAR over PLD, while neither class is particularly "broken" or "overpowered".

well for long fights, mp management is important.

if only pld can convert tp into mp.