What healers could stand to lose.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I just can't anymore. Trying to explain to you guys something that is a basic function/premise of this game is futile if you aren't going to take into account that you are comparing apples and oranges. Both may be fruit, but they are different kinds.

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Assuming a target that is taking at least 300 potency worth of damage over 30s (which is every tank taking autoattacks from anything, ever).
Adloquium = 300 base + 375 shield = 675 potency, one GCD, upfront (non-regen).
Cure II = 700 potency, one GCD, upfront.
Benefic II = 700 potency, one GCD, upfront.

You keep missing the fundamental point that the situation matters.
But nah, apparently a basic function/premise of the game is that Regen and Adloquium can be compared oranges to oranges because they're the "gimmick" heal.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Whatever, fine you win, happy. Now if you excuse me, I have to raise the Tank, they died during this tedious back and forth. I ran out of MP spamming Adlo and had no Awtherflow left, how did that happen?

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No idea. Mine lived. Did you try plugging some DPS? Usually helps when you realize you're overwriting shields.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Damage doesn't come out continuously though, even auto attacks. I don't think I've ever cast adlos back to back and not overwritten.

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Happens to me when I ask for big pulls from a lowbie tank who doesn't know how to properly manage cooldowns. I do back-to-back only when I realize the shield is gonna break before the next cast hits, so the shield is not wasted.

Not gonna be baited.

https://static0.srcdn.com/wordpress/...op&w=740&h=370

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields)

In desparate situations like those, you should be alternating between Physik and Adlo.

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Yes there is a shield delay it is why you have to wait a second before using deployment tactics but that is not the scenerio you spam adlo in a heal environment more of a get big shield during downtime for big attack.

The scenerio you tend to have to spam gcd heals is when you are out of cds and stacks, which only happens during mass pulls due to 1. Bad gear 2.no cd tank 3.bad dps, and at this point there is also another factor the invisible auto attack timer you could reapply shield wasting previous one or you could have just reapplied after the previous one was chewed through, you cannot tell which will happen until it does, but 1 thing is certain if get crit adlo you gave yourself at least 1 free gcd to either do more healing or dps.

If you go oom from this then there is a dps problem and your tank should adjust to smaller pulls but you don't go oom because aetherflow will be back midway through and you should have enough stacks, cds and mp to last for another LD.

@Eloah Maybe should work on how you wish to convey your meaning chances are if 2 people do not understand what your trying to convey then you might have to adjust how you have conveyed it so far. But if your done fine ,nice conversation , but we'll be at odds. As Physick bring upgraded to Adlo would function perfectly fine with next to no detriment to sch's playstyle but as it stands it is a theory, practice could be vastly different but 95% of sch's ik go what the hell is Physick (slanted yes but telling as well, have a bigger mixed reaction from Asts and the card system).

I think the people advocating for the removal of Physik are thinking from a Savage only standpoint, meaning that only play in savage matters and anything else will just figure itself out. Maybe I am being a terrible SCH in dungeons but these tanks end up eating all of my aetherflow stacks too fast on excog and lustrate that I am stuck spamming physik. Whispering dawn is not going to keep a tank healed for these pulls and you have no faerie gauge built up yet or co healer to help while your aetherflow comes off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I think the people advocating for the removal of Physik are thinking from a Savage only standpoint, meaning that only play in savage matters and anything else will just figure itself out. Maybe I am being a terrible SCH in dungeons but these tanks end up eating all of my aetherflow stacks too fast on excog and lustrate that I am stuck spamming physik. Whispering dawn is not going to keep a tank healed for these pulls and you have no faerie gauge built up yet or co healer to help while your aetherflow comes off cooldown.

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Those advocating for removing Physick are considering all content, not just Savage. My example about tanks taking enough damage to warrant full Adlo spam (without overwriting the shield) occurs only in dungeons for instance. I would suspect most people advocating for the removal of Physick/Cure I/Benefic I also advocate reducing the MP cost of Adlo/Cure II/Benefic II, so spamming those wouldn't be as hard on your MP.

The only real use cases of Physick right now are when either
1. you are low on MP and really need to heal right now,
2. the current mechanic needs someone to be topped off (Doom) and all your other tools are out,
3. its downtime, your MP is capped and you might as well top everyone off instead of just standing around, or
4. someone is gonna take damage only over 30s from now, and there's literally nothing else available.

1. is the use case currently fulfilled by Cure I and Benefic I. Which does not happen that often with proper planning.
2. & 4. are mechanic dependent, so with proper planning it is very unlikely that you would not have a better heal ready (since Physick is the least efficient).
3. This usually only happens during boss transitions... And even then, any GCD heal will do. I don't think this is really a case worth considering.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Those advocating for removing Physick are considering all content, not just Savage. My example about tanks taking enough damage to warrant full Adlo spam (without overwriting the shield) occurs only in dungeons for instance. I would suspect most people advocating for the removal of Physick/Cure I/Benefic I also advocate reducing the MP cost of Adlo/Cure II/Benefic II, so spamming those wouldn't be as hard on your MP.

The only real use cases of Physick right now are when either
1. you are low on MP and really need to heal right now,
2. the current mechanic needs someone to be topped off (Doom) and all your other tools are out,
3. its downtime, your MP is capped and you might as well top everyone off instead of just standing around, or
4. someone is gonna take damage only over 30s from now, and there's literally nothing else available.

1. is the use case currently fulfilled by Cure I and Benefic I. Which does not happen that often with proper planning.
2. & 4. are mechanic dependent, so with proper planning it is very unlikely that you would not have a better heal ready (since Physick is the least efficient).
3. This usually only happens during boss transitions... And even then, any GCD heal will do. I don't think this is really a case worth considering.

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If they went the route of increasing the potency of Adlo and reducing its MP cost, then yeah that would be perfectly fine to replace Physick. That also means Noct aspected benefic has to be adjust accordingly to not be so costly in comparison to Adlo. This is the first time I have really heard of that approach though, usually people just say to remove Physick without any changes to the rest of SCH's kit.

There are a few fundamental issues with healing class design, IMO:

1) Not enough damage to make sustained healing output matter in almost all content. Not a class design issue, but it has to be stated as a preface.

2) There are almost no multiplicative output cooldowns, certainly not multiple per class. Having an entire collection of these to juggle makes for a vastly more interesting and engaging problem to optimize (assuming there's enough damage to make it matter), because you have to decide where overlapping multiple cooldowns is good because the output is required versus burning them individually on cooldown to make for efficient healing without wasting mana on overhealing (not unlike tanks and their defensive cooldowns).

3) Mana sustain isn't a thing outside of battle rez pressure (which often means you're toast to enrage anyway) or playing AST (oof). Having pressure on your mana pool is what drives you to efficiently use multiplicative cooldowns on, well, cooldown.

Right now, oGCDs serve a similar purpose to multiplicative output cooldowns... except that they're nowhere near as interesting, because they combine linearly. You can design encounters with much more dynamic damage output if players have the freedom to multiply their output with good ability planning, and it'll feel far more badass at peak moments than pressing a oGCD heal.

I know this because it's how healing worked in Legion, and it was awesome. I had at least 4 multiplier abilities, of different strength, mechanics, and (critically!) cooldowns, and every boss was a fantastic puzzle of balancing efficiency with output. WoW departed from that model, stripping out most of the multiplicative cooldowns in BfA, and I departed from WoW after the first raid bored me out of my skull. I've pretty quickly lost the majority of my interest in XIV after realizing that it uses the same model (except somehow even simpler) that I already grew sick of. XIV doesn't have to replicate other games, but when you're struggling with a mechanic it might be worth taking a look at what's been successful elsewhere. That was the lesson of XIV's disastrous 1.0, wasn't it?

If stripping some buttons, particularly oGCD heals, allows some interesting multipliers to be added to XIV healers, then sign me up.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

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Right now the healing skillset design is basically a priority list. Use the most efficient healing tool, if its not available, take the next. Switching the current design for one where the healing skillset would look more like a DPS' rotation is a great idea, and would for sure make healers a lot more engaging to play.

But with the current encounter design it would also significantly raise the healing skill floor. For most skilled healers bored of spamming Glare/Broil III/Malefic IV this would be amazing, but it would put off and frustrate newcomers to the role. There are far fewer tank and DPS checks that there are healer checks.

This is why I believe boosting the DPS/utility side of healers is a better idea. If you're new to the fight, or new to healing in general, you can always focus on healing, and as you get more familiar you can expand on DPS/utility. This keeps the skill floor low (just heal, no DPS) while having a high ceiling (bare minimum healing to push maximum DPS).

I really think you're underestimating just how bad the current setup is at retaining healer players. In WoW, using the example that already uses this deeper style of healing, healers are far more common than tank players when looking to fill groups (and there are, proportionally, twice as many healer raid slots in WoW). In XIV, as it stands, it's almost always healers that are in shortest supply - especially in roulettes. It doesn't help to make the role less intimidating to try when nobody sticks around after trying it.

Not that deeper DPS kits would be a bad thing - it would help. Every WoW healer that I played had more complex damage tools than XIV despite WoW healers doing a fraction of the damage that XIV healers deal. Even discipline priests and the occasional fistweaving monk, with their interconnected damage and healing tools, didn't approach the % of a DPS' damage ouput that XIV's current 2-3 button DPS kits deal. Given how much more XIV healers interact with that aspect of their kit, it's downright tragic how limited they are.

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Originally Posted by Corbeau

I really think you're underestimating just how bad the current setup is at retaining healer players. In WoW, using the example that already uses this deeper style of healing, healers are far more common than tank players when looking to fill groups (and there are, proportionally, twice as many healer raid slots in WoW). In XIV, as it stands, it's almost always healers that are in shortest supply - especially in roulettes. It doesn't help to make the role less intimidating to try when nobody sticks around after trying it.

Not that deeper DPS kits would be a bad thing - it would help. Every WoW healer that I played had more complex damage tools than XIV despite WoW healers doing a fraction of the damage that XIV healers deal. Even discipline priests and the occasional fistweaving monk, with their interconnected damage and healing tools, didn't approach the % of a DPS' damage ouput that XIV's current 2-3 button DPS kits deal. Given how much more XIV healers interact with that aspect of their kit, it's downright tragic how limited they are.

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You must be newer to the game, considering your stats and join date. Healers had much more things to do in 3.0. Those things called reprisal and addle today, those were mainly controlled by healers, they were called Virus, Disable. They were removed because it was another layer of things for causal healers, targeting the boss on-top of already healing from a party list.

There was more damage buttons, in the case of Scholar there are now two less DoTs and Shadowflare (also a DoT AoE). Oh and there was more GCD healing. It's not tragic, it's simplified but they have controlled healer DPS getting drastically higher by doing so.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

But with the current encounter design it would also significantly raise the healing skill floor. For most skilled healers bored of spamming Glare/Broil III/Malefic IV this would be amazing, but it would put off and frustrate newcomers to the role. There are far fewer tank and DPS checks that there are healer checks.

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We have 80 levels before end game content. Maybe SE should focus on the leveling process and how it teaches players to heal if we are to raise the skill floor.

At the moment, healing barely changes from level 30 to 80.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

We have 80 levels before end game content. Maybe SE should focus on the leveling process and how it teaches players to heal if we are to raise the skill floor.

At the moment, healing barely changes from level 30 to 80.

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There is the option of raising the skill ceiling without raising the skill floor. Most of my suggestions in the forum thus far have been with that aim.

What frustrates me is they could have handled this problem by introducing a 4th healer. Sure balance would have been an issue, but it is already an issue and I doubt that will change, we've lived with years of balance issues.

Take the current healer design philosophy of it being easier to learn and accessible and put that into a new healer. Those who praise the healing changes would have had a job they could go "finally a healer we can get behind" without all those who were satisfied with a higher skill floor being negatively impacted. I'd argue bring in an evolution of ARR and HW design philosophies for existing healers and make a new healer to satisfy the current design philosophy.

This is the beauty of having a job where multiple jobs can fill the same role. You can create variety to satisfy different playstyles and appeal to different approaches different people enjoy and create vastly different identities and also satisfy different skill levels.

We had it with healers. We had it with tanks and we've good it with DPS and I don't think it's an approach that's failed us, they just needed a Red Mage of the healer world, that's smooth and simple to play. Maybe similar to White Mage's current design as it is currently the best designed out of the 3 at the moment and would mean we could revert to an earlier design approach for White Mage itself. With that in mind, "Devout" could have been compatible with those design philosophies.


But you are right too in that the game could be better at teaching people to play their jobs. ARR was well designed IMO in this respect because your spells trickled in appropriately to learn in the dungeons you're put in and as it was at this point I was a new healer to the game, I found the healer checks at certain milestones helped me learn to get better.

Job complexity is not always the reason why something is harder for a newbie to access but how they're eased into it.