Why do you want auto-attack? (discussion)[dev1022]

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Originally Posted by wind

SE isn't just listening to US, hence why there is EU, JP, FR and if the upcoming changes bring about good reviews China. So saying 'thanks for wrecking the game's potential for the rest of us, guys!" we are only 1/4 of the input towards player wanted changes that the DEV team gets. That is only 25% and I highly doubt that if ONLY 20%(lets say 5% were against it I'm being generous with the 'for') showed up on there end as wanting AA. They wouldn't have added it.

If you don't have any faith in the current DEV team and the decisions they ultimately make.. why still be around inputting your beliefs. Just seems like you're only wasting your own time(not directed at you solely gifthorse, just in general people who feel that way).

I understand the sake of argument just to argue and its easy to fall back on "well I really do want the game to be better". But the way most go about it honestly will never appear that way to the people who matter(dev/yoshi). It'll just come off as being ungrateful and rude.. unsure if you know there is pretty big cultural differences in the way we view 'confrontation' between US / JP.

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If developers cannot distinguish between sound ideas and otherwise just because such ideas are not laced in social etiquette, then they should probably work on that.

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Originally Posted by Steelcyclone

So you hate every mmo basicly? I dont see what the big deal with auto attack is. If someone wants to be lazy they can do it with or without auto attack.

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Yes that would be it. i hate every autoattack MMO, and i am deeply unhappy they are breaking FFXIV <_<

And NO, not all MMOs use autoatack. All WOW clones use autoattack.

Look at nice and fun system in Fallen Earth, it is what i call i nice game system. Interesting, engaging.

Returning to XIV.

Those who spam 1 will benefit most from AA, as they will just point, click, and chat with tiher people. The game wont change for them , as they will believe that basic aytoattack will give them more DPS than skills anyway. those who use skills, wont be able to chat, as you will be using skill every 2-3 autoswings, or actually much more, so almost no change for them. Only one will be those who liked engagement and immersion for initiating all attacks, and they will loose that.

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Originally Posted by Lamhirh

Yes that would be it. i hate every autoattack MMO, and i am deeply unhappy they are breaking FFXIV <_<

And NO, not all MMOs use autoatack. All WOW clones use autoattack.

Look at nice and fun system in Fallen Earth, it is what i call i nice game system. Interesting, engaging.

Returning to XIV.

Those who spam 1 will benefit most from AA, as they will just point, click, and chat with tiher people. The game wont change for them , as they will believe that basic aytoattack will give them more DPS than skills anyway. those who use skills, wont be able to chat, as you will be using skill every 2-3 autoswings, or actually much more, so almost no change for them. Only one will be those who liked engagement and immersion for initiating all attacks, and they will loose that.

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Yeah, to be honest, I never thought I'd see the day where FFXIV had aggro-indicators, let alone auto-attack and NPC quests with exclamation bubbles.

It's like they can't make this game into WoW fast enough. Between the upcoming companies (more NPC quests) and auto-attack, it just seems like this game is slowly degenerating into a blandfest.

The Private Company ships and housing, among other things like PvP, all slated for release under Tanaka were reasons why I was still playing the game. It's sad to think that in Yoshi's bid to improve the game, all he has done is broken the combat system.

If there was one good thing that to come out of yoshi's development it was the promise of a more role-oriented spin on the armory system and a "jump" system.

Unfortunately the latter of those has been canned... and who wants to bet that yoshi will destroy the armory system too? Seems to be something he would do.

If you're going to take something from WoW, you don't take the things that make it shit (exclamation mark quests, easymode), you take the things that make it good: wealth of content, jump, etc.

If FFXIV had kept with the active combat system and improved on everything, bringing in Private Companies and giving them something to work toward, FFXIV might have had a chance to compete in the market. As it stands, creating more lame quests, no jump, automated combat, easymode... none of this will give it a fighting chance against the games coming out this year.

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but come on. It's obvious.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Yeah, to be honest, I never thought I'd see the day where FFXIV had aggro-indicators, let alone auto-attack and NPC quests with exclamation bubbles.

It's like they can't make this game into WoW fast enough. Between the upcoming companies (more NPC quests) and auto-attack, it just seems like this game is slowly degenerating into a blandfest.

The Private Company ships and housing, among other things like PvP, all slated for release under Tanaka were reasons why I was still playing the game. It's sad to think that in Yoshi's bid to improve the game, all he has done is broken the combat system.

If there was one good thing that to come out of yoshi's development it was the promise of a more role-oriented spin on the armory system and a "jump" system.

Unfortunately the latter of those has been canned... and who wants to bet that yoshi will destroy the armory system too? Seems to be something he would do.

If you're going to take something from WoW, you don't take the things that make it shit (exclamation mark quests, easymode), you take the things that make it good: wealth of content, jump, etc.

If FFXIV had kept with the active combat system and improved on everything, bringing in Private Companies and giving them something to work toward, FFXIV might have had a chance to compete in the market. As it stands, creating more lame quests, no jump, automated combat, easymode... none of this will give it a fighting chance against the games coming out this year.

I don't mean to be presumptuous, but come on. It's obvious.

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First of all, WoW is both more strategic and more complicated than FFXIV in every way except perhaps being easier to avoid repetitive stress injuries. FFXIV is already more 'easy mode' than most MMOs on the market.

It sounds like you need a reminder that this game is a failure right now. Whether it fits with your personal tastes aside, no one is playing this game and it cannot survive in its current state. There is no reason for SE to remain loyal to the handful of people who still play (for free) when they're constantly losing money. There are certain changes that MUST be made if they're ever going to get other people to play this game. The combat system as it stands right now is not only boring, it's pointless. Whether or not there are abilities in the game that allow you to play more strategically, they aren't needed to kill enemies and advance. You can just light strike your way through 100% of the game's content. You can't do that in WoW.

Before people start typing up their regular defensive posts, you can save your 'wow fanboy' comments and your 'you know nothing about game development' comments because they're also irrelevant. This is a business. This game is a failure. Drastic measure are needed and there is no reason to keep this game the way it is right now because they're bleeding to death.

This is a beautiful game with a terrific crafting system. It has unrivaled art direction and design and the animations and story elements are truly well done. There has never been music anywhere near this good in an MMO before. There are core mechanics in place with the graphics and sound that will probably be the best in the genre for years to come, but the game will disappear entirely if they don't add engaging content and better combat/gameplay, implement a worthwhile system for trading goods that people craft/farm, give people something to look forward to at the level cap, and actually instill the player with a sense of accomplishment.

Really dig deep before you try to keep this game from changing, because almost everyone who has played or reviewed it has panned it. This is not a symptom of people wanting WoW 2.0, it's a symptom of bad game design, and you need to let the new dev team try to fix the mess so that this game survives.

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Originally Posted by Pablohoney

First of all, WoW is both more strategic and more complicated than FFXIV in every way except perhaps being easier to avoid repetitive stress injuries. FFXIV is already more 'easy mode' than most MMOs on the market.

It sounds like you need a reminder that this game is a failure right now. Whether it fits with your personal tastes aside, no one is playing this game and it cannot survive in its current state. There is no reason for SE to remain loyal to the handful of people who still play (for free) when they're constantly losing money. There are certain changes that MUST be made if they're ever going to get other people to play this game. The combat system as it stands right now is not only boring, it's pointless. Whether or not there are abilities in the game that allow you to play more strategically, they aren't needed to kill enemies and advance. You can just light strike your way through 100% of the game's content. You can't do that in WoW.

Before people start typing up their regular defensive posts, you can save your 'wow fanboy' comments and your 'you know nothing about game development' comments because they're also irrelevant. This is a business. This game is a failure. Drastic measure are needed and there is no reason to keep this game the way it is right now because they're bleeding to death.

This is a beautiful game with a terrific crafting system. It has unrivaled art direction and design and the animations and story elements are truly well done. There has never been music anywhere near this good in an MMO before. There are core mechanics in place with the graphics and sound that will probably be the best in the genre for years to come, but the game will disappear entirely if they don't add engaging content and better combat/gameplay, implement a worthwhile system for trading goods that people craft/farm, give people something to look forward to at the level cap, and actually instill the player with a sense of accomplishment.

Really dig deep before you try to keep this game from changing, because almost everyone who has played or reviewed it has panned it. This is not a symptom of people wanting WoW 2.0, it's a symptom of bad game design, and you need to let the new dev team try to fix the mess so that this game survives.

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You're completely ignoring the fact that a significant portion of the player base enjoys many of the things they're changing. For me, personally, there's no faster way to get me to stop playing that cramming it into the current popular mold for MMOs. If I want to play a quest hub bouncing, auto-attacking WoW clone, I'll play something else, cause I know of at least three games that do it better than FFXIV will ever be able to. I play FFXIV because it's different, interesting, and has a lot of design features that I really like. My only real complaints with the game at the moment are the lack of content and the direction they seem to be trying to take it.

I'm unsure if I would say 'enjoys many of the things they're changing' rather then 'afraid of changing'. History has proven people don't exactly flock towards change. If things work(even if poorly) currently, why should we change.

But many people have different views, how they want things, when they want them, these things need fixing, but not those.. etc etc. Its 100% impossible to please everyone. It does suck if people leave because of some changes but I'm sure on there end they are viewing the pros/cons of the decisions and have faith that the players will at least 'try' them before making up there mind. Never know you might change your view points after using the new system. It's easier to never try something yet feel biased about it. So at least 'try' the new system before you leave is all I'm saying.

its not afraid of change, its bored of thing they want to change into. The people wanting AA are ones afraid of something diofferent

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Originally Posted by Lamhirh

its not afraid of change, its bored of thing they want to change into. The people wanting AA are ones afraid of something diofferent

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Almost every MMO has the auto attack system.. how is that diffrent? D:'

nope not e every, and the one i enjoyed dont have it. 'almost every MMO have it'!='AA is good'. Thats the point. And people who were good at using old system dont want to, or maybe couldnt use that knowledge in here, so instead of putting effort, that started spamming single attack, and started making noise about AA. And as in everything in the world, the wining party is alwys the one who makes most noise, so for small percentage of noisemakers, we get penalised by dumb and retarded feature. Yay SE, yay boards! And with sarcasm off. Current system dont nead change. It needs to be balanced and teaked, and it will work flawlessly. The reason of state is fact that game was rushed out. But again noisemakers didnt want to wait for SE to perfect current system, they want what they already had in WOW and its 2 billion clones. We get AA, we already got rexclamation marks, next will be AH and and color coded items <_< And than Blood Elves.

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Originally Posted by Pablohoney

First of all, WoW is both more strategic and more complicated than FFXIV in every way except perhaps being easier to avoid repetitive stress injuries. FFXIV is already more 'easy mode' than most MMOs on the market.

It sounds like you need a reminder that this game is a failure right now. Whether it fits with your personal tastes aside, no one is playing this game and it cannot survive in its current state. There is no reason for SE to remain loyal to the handful of people who still play (for free) when they're constantly losing money. There are certain changes that MUST be made if they're ever going to get other people to play this game. The combat system as it stands right now is not only boring, it's pointless. Whether or not there are abilities in the game that allow you to play more strategically, they aren't needed to kill enemies and advance. You can just light strike your way through 100% of the game's content. You can't do that in WoW.

Before people start typing up their regular defensive posts, you can save your 'wow fanboy' comments and your 'you know nothing about game development' comments because they're also irrelevant. This is a business. This game is a failure. Drastic measure are needed and there is no reason to keep this game the way it is right now because they're bleeding to death.

This is a beautiful game with a terrific crafting system. It has unrivaled art direction and design and the animations and story elements are truly well done. There has never been music anywhere near this good in an MMO before. There are core mechanics in place with the graphics and sound that will probably be the best in the genre for years to come, but the game will disappear entirely if they don't add engaging content and better combat/gameplay, implement a worthwhile system for trading goods that people craft/farm, give people something to look forward to at the level cap, and actually instill the player with a sense of accomplishment.

Really dig deep before you try to keep this game from changing, because almost everyone who has played or reviewed it has panned it. This is not a symptom of people wanting WoW 2.0, it's a symptom of bad game design, and you need to let the new dev team try to fix the mess so that this game survives.

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I am not trying to keep this game from changing, I am trying to keep it changing for the worse. You said the gaming industry is a business, well guess what, crappy games don't attract revenue. Automating combat is no means of improving it. Likewise, making the game more efficient can sometimes only destroy the atmosphere.

If you think automating combat is the answer to the game, then Guild Wars 2 and TERA say "hi". Welcome to the twenty first century. Tanaka was on the right track with a combat system which strived to make positioning matter and where people had to take an active role in combat. Yoshi is set to destroy the foundations of the game that even gave it a chance to compete against the upcoming rivals. Remember MMOs are a business.

The developers think WoW 2.0 is the fix the game needs, and it's not. They are completely misguided, and it's quite a shame. I already quit the game now, but I still don't want all SE's work to go to waste simply because they took the wrong approach.

And funny how we who dislike auto-attack are called xenophobes and afraid of change when it's pretty obvious that auto-attack is the one thing that has remained unchanged in MMOs for many years now.

Hahahhaha. Get with the times people.

Because spamming normal attack is lame and boring. I'd rather it just be automated like every other MMO. And just because a game has auto attack, or someone else wants auto attack doesn't make them lazy. Auto attack doesn't necessarily mean you will be pushing any less buttons, just the buttons you will be pushing will be for other things like more special attacks and abilities. Combat in general will have to be redesigned to make it work, but I personally find it better.

If the battle system requires more tactics than our current battle system, I am in full favor.

Think you took it out of context, not sure if it was deliberate or not to get your point across. Simply just mean our current system > new system.. ALL WITHIN FFXIV not the MMO industry. I could give a shit what another game is doing, I'm not naive enough to think that because a part of another game 'might' be implemented into this one, will mean the mechanics will work the exact same. Or that it would mean this game is conforming to them because of that one aspect.

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Originally Posted by Skeeter

Because spamming normal attack is lame and boring. I'd rather it just be automated like every other MMO. And just because a game has auto attack, or someone else wants auto attack doesn't make them lazy. Auto attack doesn't necessarily mean you will be pushing any less buttons, just the buttons you will be pushing will be for other things like more special attacks and abilities. Combat in general will have to be redesigned to make it work, but I personally find it better.

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Automating a boring combat system doesnt make it any more fun, just less tedious.

LOL @ SE.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

I am not trying to keep this game from changing, I am trying to keep it changing for the worse. You said the gaming industry is a business, well guess what, crappy games don't attract revenue. Automating combat is no means of improving it. Likewise, making the game more efficient can sometimes only destroy the atmosphere.

If you think automating combat is the answer to the game, then Guild Wars 2 and TERA say "hi". Welcome to the twenty first century. Tanaka was on the right track with a combat system which strived to make positioning matter and where people had to take an active role in combat. Yoshi is set to destroy the foundations of the game that even gave it a chance to compete against the upcoming rivals. Remember MMOs are a business.

The developers think WoW 2.0 is the fix the game needs, and it's not. They are completely misguided, and it's quite a shame. I already quit the game now, but I still don't want all SE's work to go to waste simply because they took the wrong approach.

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to me it's like yoshi is looking at the game saying how can i get enough players to join the game to break even. these stupid revisions(arrgo indicator, auto-attack, and exclamation points over npc's) are the exact things a clueless person would do. these changes are made to try to cut as many losses as they can before they move onto another game because they have lost direction as a company and have no idea what people want anymore. they realize they can't get it fixed so they are covering it with enough band aids to get enough people here for the short term and break even overall. there are just covers over a broken game, but they are not able to get it put together.

i never thought i'd say it, but i am really wishing this game had tanaka back. at least he had a direction. if we had allowed him to finish his ideas i feel this game would have been fine, but we brought in another that seems to be worse in the case he had to come in and start over.

Ok, a lot of you replying have missed my point:

It doesn't matter if you like the game as it is now. There aren't enough of you to keep the game afloat. Therefore it must be changed or no new players will join and the game will no longer be financially viable and it will be cancelled. You guys keep saying "RIFT SAYS HI!" and other stupid stuff like that, don't you realize that the people who are hanging around and hoping for improvements are the only people who can save this game? If you keep sending people away to other games you're just reinforcing the behavior that got this game such a laughably small player base and such terrible reviews in the first place.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

to me it's like yoshi is looking at the game saying how can i get enough players to join the game to break even. these stupid revisions(arrgo indicator, auto-attack, and exclamation points over npc's) are the exact things a clueless person would do. these changes are made to try to cut as many losses as they can before they move onto another game because they have lost direction as a company and have no idea what people want anymore. they realize they can't get it fixed so they are covering it with enough band aids to get enough people here for the short term and break even overall. there are just covers over a broken game, but they are not able to get it put together.

i never thought i'd say it, but i am really wishing this game had tanaka back. at least he had a direction. if we had allowed him to finish his ideas i feel this game would have been fine, but we brought in another that seems to be worse in the case he had to come in and start over.

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Sorry dude, but you're full of it. Those 'revisions' are minor changes that can be made relatively quickly whilst bigger changes happen in the background. If SE was trying to 'cut their losses' they'd shut the damn servers down, they've ALREADY LOST.

Stop acting like you know anything about the design direction or progress they're making based upon the little we know. You're obviously someone who's happy to grind away in a largely pointless fashion considering your ranks, and that puts you and other players happy with the current system in the smallest minority. Look at the first player poll, people asked for radical changes en masse. Look at how many people left the game.

Tanaka drove it into the ground, Yoshida's picking up the pieces based purely on SE capital. If they didn't believe it could be repaired for a PS3 launch, we wouldn't be on a new official forum made for discussion about a game that, for all intents and purposes shouldve been shut down if all they wanted to do was 'recoup'.

You're wrong.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Guild Wars 2 and TERA say "hi".

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You keep on mentioning this like it's relevant. I completely agree that having full control over battle is in future for MMORPGs, but there's way more to having control over combat beyond simply not having auto-attack.

The FFXIV engine has shown no hints of being able to offer the kind of dynamic combat that those two games have. Hell, we can't even move during combat while using skills, something that pretty much every single current-gen-MMORPG offers. You're way too hopeful if you think they have the tools to transform a combat system where you're tied to the ground to something like GW2 or TERA have.

Lack of auto-attack is not the reason why the combat system in those two games is going to move the genre forward. Stop acting like it is. There's collision detection in GW2's projectiles and spells, for the love of god. The battle system in this game probably lost its chance to compete with that when the engine was finished. At the very least, and for its sake, I hope it has the tools to adapt to this generation of combat systems.

Tanaka may have had the right idea (one of the few good ideas he had, in my opinion), but his programmers, whoever was in charge of the engine, and whoever had to implement the combat system, obviously didn't, or at least they didn't know how to make systems that would truly take advantage of his idea.

solracht, your sig is fantastic. The same of course applies to the (!) markers, immersion breakers QQ.

EDIT: I felt bad for making the 100th post off-topic, so... auto-attack WOO! Read Matsui's actual post about it, he even explains that he finds it to be a necessity in the new battle system they're designing.

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Originally Posted by Sephr

Sorry dude, but you're full of it. Those 'revisions' are minor changes that can be made relatively quickly whilst bigger changes happen in the background. If SE was trying to 'cut their losses' they'd shut the damn servers down, they've ALREADY LOST.

Stop acting like you know anything about the design direction or progress they're making based upon the little we know. You're obviously someone who's happy to grind away in a largely pointless fashion considering your ranks, and that puts you and other players happy with the current system in the smallest minority. Look at the first player poll, people asked for radical changes en masse. Look at how many people left the game.

Tanaka drove it into the ground, Yoshida's picking up the pieces based purely on SE capital. If they didn't believe it could be repaired for a PS3 launch, we wouldn't be on a new official forum made for discussion about a game that, for all intents and purposes shouldve been shut down if all they wanted to do was 'recoup'.

You're wrong.

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no just because my opinion does not line up with yours it does not make it wrong. you tell me that i am acting like i know what direction they are headed now, but yet say yourself you do not either. all i was saying is that i liked the direction the game went from xi and wow, but we seem to be drifting again in that direction. i never once said i liked the game as it was. they have multiple things they need to do to fix the game, but an aggro indicator that does not work properly is not one of them.

btw, my ranks are none of your business. i enjoy parties with my ls and have gotten my levels from enjoying time with others. it is not that i like the game the way it is.

now as far as tanaka drove it into the ground can you imagine the quality xi would have been if they had fired its director just a few months after release when it took almost a year to get a decent game out of it. did you not read the reviews it had when it was jp only for the first 11 months before it was released in the us? according to them the game was even in worse shape than this one is and it seems to have turned out pretty well. my point was we do not know what tanaka had in mind to do to fix the game and make it more enjoyable, but i would have liked to see what was planned.

just so you know i voted for radical change also, but exclamation points over the npc is not what i had in mind when i said yes.

It takes away the tedium of spamming attack over and over. It's not like it takes any thought, so I don't see any point in it... The time it frees up could be put to much better use via strategic elements that could be added, which the game definitely needs more of... With things like the use of abilities, tactics, or whatever else they might add.

Of course, even if they don't add those strategic elements, auto-attack would still be welcome, because chatting is still a lot better than button mashing mindlessly.

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Originally Posted by solracht

You keep on mentioning this like it's relevant. I completely agree that having full control over battle is in future for MMORPGs, but there's way more to having control over combat beyond simply not having auto-attack.

The FFXIV engine has shown no hints of being able to offer the kind of dynamic combat that those two games have. Hell, we can't even move during combat while using skills, something that pretty much every single current-gen-MMORPG offers. You're way too hopeful if you think they have the tools to transform a combat system where you're tied to the ground to something like GW2 or TERA have.

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Guild Wars 2 has a target lock-on battle system like FFXIV with active attacks. It's the same combat system as FFXIV's present rendition, just more streamlined and less spammy.

And anyway, when the people behind TERA left NCSoft with stolen network code, they allegedly showed it to Square Enix before founding their own company BlueHole Studios. So ... technically SE could make this game TERA if they wanted to go to court for it. LOL.

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Lack of auto-attack is not the reason why the combat system in those two games is going to move the genre forward. Stop acting like it is. There's collision detection in GW2's projectiles and spells, for the love of god.

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SE isn't incapable of adding in the network coding for such things. They've already shown they can make collision detection between mobs and players etc (from alpha to beta) in a short amount of time. It's feasible they can improve the battle system in this way too, by making temporary colliding assets or something.

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The battle system in this game probably lost its chance to compete with that when the engine was finished. At the very least, and for its sake, I hope it has the tools to adapt to this generation of combat systems.

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The graphical engine is somewhat separate from the network code, although it defines the limits of certain actions. There is nothing to prevent SE from improving the active-combat system besides the issue of server-to-client latency (due to their global servers)... and also how talented their network programmers are.

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Tanaka may have had the right idea (one of the few good ideas he had, in my opinion), but his programmers, whoever was in charge of the engine, and whoever had to implement the combat system, obviously didn't, or at least they didn't know how to make systems that would truly take advantage of his idea.

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That's true. But dismissing the idea (which we admit to being good) isn't the best approach. Improving upon the idea is.

Auto-attack might be a huge mistake.

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Originally Posted by Sephr

solracht, your sig is fantastic. The same of course applies to the (!) markers, immersion breakers QQ.

EDIT: I felt bad for making the 100th post off-topic, so... auto-attack WOO! Read Matsui's actual post about it, he even explains that he finds it to be a necessity in the new battle system they're designing.

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LOL, that's because he designed the whole combat system around auto-attack, since that's what players asked for in the polls.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

no just because my opinion does not line up with yours it does not make it wrong. you tell me that i am acting like i know what direction they are headed now, but yet say yourself you do not either. all i was saying is that i liked the direction the game went from xi and wow, but we seem to be drifting again in that direction. i never once said i liked the game as it was. they have multiple things they need to do to fix the game, but an aggro indicator that does not work properly is not one of them.

btw, my ranks are none of your business. i enjoy parties with my ls and have gotten my levels from enjoying time with others. it is not that i like the game the way it is.

now as far as tanaka drove it into the ground can you imagine the quality xi would have been if they had fired its director just a few months after release when it took almost a year to get a decent game out of it. did you not read the reviews it had when it was jp only for the first 11 months before it was released in the us? according to them the game was even in worse shape than this one is and it seems to have turned out pretty well. my point was we do not know what tanaka had in mind to do to fix the game and make it more enjoyable, but i would have liked to see what was planned.

just so you know i voted for radical change also, but exclamation points over the npc is not what i had in mind when i said yes.

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Genius post.

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Originally Posted by SnowTiger

It takes away the tedium of spamming attack over and over.

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If combat is so boring that auto-attack is the only way you can think of fixing it, then that batle system needs more than autoattack... trust me.

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It's not like it takes any thought, so I don't see any point in it... The time it frees up could be put to much better use via strategic elements that could be added, which the game definitely needs more of... With things like the use of abilities, tactics, or whatever else they might add.

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All auto-attack does is add a background DPS rate to your attacks, meaning that mob hp will be adjusted accordingly. Rendering the whole thing futile.

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Of course, even if they don't add those strategic elements, auto-attack would still be welcome, because chatting is still a lot better than button mashing mindlessly.

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What is the point of chatting while in combat? I don't want to talk when I fight. I want to fight when I fight.

Not really going to bother making another long post to argue, because either you or I have the wrong idea of what a game engine really is and how much it limits what can be accomplished in a game.

For the future of the game, I hope it's me.

May want to rewatch GW2 battle videos, by the way.

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Originally Posted by solracht

Not really going to bother making another long post to argue, because either you or I have the wrong idea of what a game engine really is and how much it limits what can be accomplished in a game.

May want to rewatch GW2 battle videos, by the way.

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Regarding Guild Wars 2, you lock onto targets to attack them or you use ground-targeting AoE or conal AoE to attack multiple mobs within range (things which FFXIV basically has already).

Side bar: the engine governs how the developers make the client, its functions, and what we basically see, the server and network-code governs how the game responds to our actions and the actions of others. Given that we are discussing combat in an MMO, the network coding is most relevant.

But I agree that this is a futile discussion now, especially considering they have already chosen their direction (auto-attack). All we can do now is watch as the forest burns.

it dont matter to me ill just play regardless if they do add it im gonna multibox plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

If combat is so boring that auto-attack is the only way you can think of fixing it, then that batle system needs more than autoattack... trust me.

All auto-attack does is add a background DPS rate to your attacks, meaning that mob hp will be adjusted accordingly. Rendering the whole thing futile.

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You're entitled to your opinion on it, but I completely disagree. The direction I think they should go in, is one where each player has a wide arsenal of abilities and commands at their disposal, many of which are specialized to put value and emphasis on their chosen role.

Teamwork and coordination would also be imperative, and strategy would be key. Mobs would need a whole new range of abilities as well, so that players would have reason to respond to the ever changing situation with ever changing tactics, which still fit into the general strategy being employed.

Each action any given player makes at any given time should be chosen. Which means, there would be alternatives to any given action. With basic attacks eating up all your commands, that doesn't happen. You just spam attack. It's dull.

Right now, the game is a long way from that, and to be honest, I don't think it will ever get to where I'd take it if I was running the show... But then again, neither will any other mmo's on the market, but the difference with this game is at least they're still tinkering with it, and that gives some hope of a decent system, where the other games I've played and looked at aren't even considering making more out of their systems.

There's a great deal of potential though... With things like various stances that both the mobs and players could take, enfeebles and buffs, various types of damage, combined abilities that serve two purposes, such as an enfeebling attack, but that don't excel at either, various countermeasures to mob actions, the traditional tank/healer interactions, limb damage and angled attacks, nearly endless mob specific abilities that could be added, and not to mention, the potential of battle regiments and a whole spectrum of effects that those could have. That's just to scratch the surface. Really, the skies the limit to what could be done, but the more intricate and detailed they want it, the more time and money it will cost, which greatly diminishes the chances of us seeing anything of spectacular depth.

So yeah, if they really knocked it out of the park, there would be ample degrees of both strategy and tactics, and many ways to approach a fight. Players could be kept busy and engaged in the combat, without needing to mindlessly spam normal attacks. Auto-attack would be more about having a timer on the TP gain, which utilizes various stats, giving further use to things like gear, buffs, and food. With all that, and a party that works in tandem together, all you need is a wide spectrum of challenges, including exceedingly hard ones at one end, and relatively easy ones at the other.

Or, you know... We could all just mash the same button for 5 minutes, and then rinse and repeat. With strategy going no farther than not standing in the wrong spot. Way too many games today cater to the lowest possible level of thought, but I think that if you presented gamers with a more thought intensive combat system, they'd be more than capable of acclimating to it. One where every choice has a deliberate and decisive impact, and not just spamfests with the occasional larger attack or routine cycle of buffs and debuffs. Mmo's are the perfect place for even the more casual of gamers to be able to adjust to such a combat system, as the long road to the level cap would be an ideal way to gradually hone your skills, and then at cap, the game could really open up on a number of levels.

But again, a combat system like what I'm imagining here is extremely unlikely to take shape anytime soon. Too many people have resigned to wanting their games to require little thought, and to be a relaxed mellow experience. A little intensity and strategy would really liven things up though. And I know for a fact that the vast majority of gamers would be more than capable of not only utilizing a system like that, but enjoying it as well. But it seems neither the players nor the developers want to really give such a thing a chance.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

What is the point of chatting while in combat? I don't want to talk when I fight. I want to fight when I fight.

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And erm, well... If not for the sake of socializing, then to plot attacks or a similar manner of scheming? But to each their own. Still, it is an mmo, and socializing with your team is part of the experience. If it wasn't, they'd just give everyone their own offline server, and replace other players with npcs and bots.

At any rate, I'm not getting my hopes up too high. And the game doesn't need to be perfectly tailored to my ideal concept of a game either, I'll take what comes along and enjoy it for whatever it's worth. At the end of the day, it is just a game after all. :P

Oh and sorry for responding with a rambling wall of text... I tend to do that lol. ^.^

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

All the content the developers have planned for us is purely in response to the player polls and individual player's comments/demands. SE has reached the point where they are appealing and conceding to every self-proclaimed expert rather than seeking to improve their own vision for the game. A cursory glance at the changes released so far or slated for release in the future (i.e., aggro indicator, AH, auto-attack combat) is enough to prove that they will compromise on artistic integrity and palatability just for the sake of pleasing their current players. Sadly, most of the people who still play are FFXI fanatics or WoW players, so much so that the polls are slanted in their favour, as opposed to being slanted in favour of an overall better game.

If they think a combat system centred on auto-attack is going to be a drawcard against the upcoming MMOs like Guild Wars 2 and TERA, then FFXIV has a surprise coming. Similarly, if they merely think that changing FFXIV into FFXI-2 is going to save them, then again, all they are doing is shuffling current subscribers between games, and in the end aren't gaining any revenue.

This is an artistic issue as much as a practical one. Auto-attack is boring and many players who aren't FFXI losers would agree, hence why FFXIV will fail if it seeks only to appeal to such players and not the majority.

But whatever. Enjoy your slowly degenerating game while you still can.

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Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, mr cool guy.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Im only thinking of the game's welfare.

But if you are prepared to sacrifice FFXIV's longevity just because you want to chat up some miqotes during combat, by all means, go ahead. But I hope you know even PS3 wont be this game's salvation what with Blade & Soul and DCUO already existing or soon-to-be contenders.

And I find it a pretty specious claim to say that the potential market on the PS3 is even enough to, not only rejuvinate FFXIV, but sustain it also.

I wish you luck with FFXIV too, you sure are going to need it.

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You are one freaking retard, ignorant, dumb ass kid, look at FFXI susbcription base idiot. It has done well, doesn't need 11million kids running around jumping. This game is here and here to stay. They always have xbox 360 to later port.

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Originally Posted by Evovenom

They always have xbox 360 to later port.

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This is assuming Microsoft meets SE's terms.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

If combat is so boring that auto-attack is the only way you can think of fixing it, then that batle system needs more than autoattack... trust me.



All auto-attack does is add a background DPS rate to your attacks, meaning that mob hp will be adjusted accordingly. Rendering the whole thing futile.



What is the point of chatting while in combat? I don't want to talk when I fight. I want to fight when I fight.

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You must be looking for wrong type of game, you see, this is MMO, where you play this rpg game but it's online with OTHERS, you join with fights with OTHERS, you fight together side by side with OTHERS, you can play alone, you can be a loser in the cornor by all means but this is MMO after all...

they have other offline games where you can fight, fight, and fight, no need to sit and chat.

not because your a 2 times loser and some of us actually have people to talk to means auto attack is bad or as you put it "ruining my game" opps i mean "ruining our game" who the F is this we you speak to highly of, you and your cat?

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Originally Posted by Evovenom

who the F is this we you speak to highly of, you and your cat?

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Please refrain from making absolutely no sense in the future. Ok?

you see for people who really enjoy current system, autoattack will ruin it, but to those who find that only way to fight is spam 1, its just minior inconvinience ( the lack of it i mean)

I don't know how anyone can hate auto attack especially over the current system where you just spam normal attack endlessly and hope that when you want to hit a weapon skill the delay doesn't allow you for 5 seconds. I liked the system at first but soon after I much rather have an auto attack so my damage can be optimized and battle speed can pick up. The reason they are changing it is because the current system isn't working as intended and is slowing the battles down and with them lowering the group sizes from 15 to 8 that have to tweek the battle system so that the game moves at a fluid pace and not because the people are too lazy to spam 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 for 20-30 minutes straight.

hnope you dont spam normal attack needlesly. i use it only few times per fight, i use other skills too. If you spam 1 1 1 1 , than you need to lern how to use other attacks. Only way to solve the problem is L2P. Cos if opeople dont use skills
they wont use it with autoattack . So what change is it?

Systejm IS working as intended. all it need is some balancing to skill efficiency. Autoatack wont solve that, it will just apeal to WOW crowd. And also saying you will be able to chat is a bullcrap. if you rreally play game you use skills, witch leaves no time for chatting anyway ( and when you fight easy mobs, it doesnt matter anyway if you pause attacks for 5 seconds to type something.

Auto attack is coming, get over it. There is no reason to argue against it anymore, it isn't going to change their mind.