Problems letting go of XI? Japanese too.

Bacon. There. I said it.


Who want's some?

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Originally Posted by Kasumuni

Bacon. There. I said it.


Who want's some?

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< This guy.

At some points, posts become TL : DR posts.

I'm just gonna throw that out there.

ffxi had its good and bad and nothing is wrong using the good again most games clone previous systems.

the bad FFXI crafting and loot was horrible near impossible to farm mats. skilling up was crazy slow.

the good FFXI they way the world was handled, events like campagin, balista, dynamis, endgame bosses.

the mixed feellings HNM/nm hunting 24 hour spawn was a bit much.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

This.. is an excellent question. I want the experience. In Final Fantasy XI I was excited to go to new places, explore new zones. Kill big NM's! I was so excited my first time in Dynamis. Getting to sea and seeing the zone for the first time?

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This. I feel pretty much the same way. I also hear this alot from other people who played XI. Someone then explained to me that because XI was my first MMO, alot of that "epic feeling" was proly just due to that fact, and most people feel that way for their first MMO (that they enjoyed). According to him, you never really fully get that shock and awe again that you had from the 1st time..

Now I dunno if I agree with that, but I've tried a couple different mmo's since XI, and while XIV might get there, can't say that I've found anything that really does it for me yet.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

but at the same time... you can't alienate the FFXI base either....
Yoshi wants everyone to enjoy the game and both sides could stand to be a little more flexible and open minded

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I hate to say it but catering to everyone makes a bad game. You can never make everyone happy.

I think it is a mixture of things.

1. People never really getting "new" stuff that we always hoped to get (The far east, the Mithra homeland, male mitrhas etc etc) FFXI was "dead" after abyssea, nothing really mayor in terms of NEW (not reused and gear fest) content.

2. FFXI had a great sound track, an amazing story and some wonderful moments, and many people would have hoped 14 to be some sort of "improvement" from 11. But 14 in many ways, made HUGE STEPS BACKWARDS.

3. People loyal to the francise are hoping that 14 can truly deliver what a final fantasy should deliver in 2.0

FF14 MUST deliver and surpass 11 in 2.0 for good or else this feeling of loss will never end.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

As for XI's leveling being fun, not so much. The things we got to do after hitting certain milestone (i.e. CoP missions, BCNMs, AF, missions and such) were fun. But grinding out levels was tedium defined.



Shooters are popular because they're fast-paced, accessible and on-demand.

Shooters don't revolve around sitting there with your map open waiting for a single target to pop then sprinting to it to be the first to shoot it.

They're popular because you'll never hear phrases like "Gee, I'd love to play Team Deathmatch with you but I have to wait another 32 hours before I can go into that game mode again."



There's a line though. Why do people have to be impeded for your sense of superiority? Leveling isn't fun for most people. It's just killing the same random fodder over and over again. The sense of journey came from doing those things new levels opened up for us.

Even most who say they enjoyed the grind don't recall anything about actually grinding. It's always the social aspect that often was a byproduct. Random discussions and goofing off. But that's all things that could have, and did, happen outside of grinding.

The sense of superiority should come from having a reward that was the result of an actual challenge. Not because you happen to have the most free time. That's all Maat's Cap meant.

XIV has it right. Get grinding out of the way and let the superiority come through in who can beat content first. Eventually, I'm sure they'll add in long-term goals that will separately the dedicated from the casual. But 1.x is meant to be a pacifier in the mouths of we the fanboys, not a representative of the complete 2.0 experience.

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TL;DR: Not everyone shares your sentiments about leveling.

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Maybe I'm sick, but I disagree fully and heavily. For me leveling was never a chore. Save for the jobs I was all but forced to level (NIN, because everything subbed it) that I had a deep seated disdain for. And even at that, the social aspect you mentioned made it bearable.

I was always stoked to go to Valkurm and Qufim to share with newcomers the wealth of knowledge I had gained trekking God only knows how many jobs through across multiple characters. I liked it when a level 25 Qufim pt would split, and I could swap jobs to help some Fresh level 25 grind out his Khazam Keys. I looked forward to bouncing from Lizards, to crabs, to flys, to goblins, to Pugils then finally moving on to a new zone.

Don't remember the grind? Man, I reinvented the grind. Up in the 40s I would literally keep a party rolling for 48 hours straight on the weekends. I killed spiders and beetles like I was paid to do it, and liked it. There was more than 1 occasion I would see a player logoff to go to bed, only to watch him pop back up 8 hours later and go "Holy shit! You're still here!?" Yup, want back in? We need a DD, this one's about ready to drop of exhaustion. I didn't survive off coffee and Nodos to pt like a Chinese gil farmer because I had to, or because I wanted bragging rights. I did it because I enjoyed it.

The game wasn't designed to be a fast paced button masher, and that was fine for me. I enjoyed talking to people in my parties. Because quite frankly if it weren't for parties I wouldn't have been interacting with them. I didn't like solo xp and "MMOs" that allowed for solo play through 85% of the game. I don't get it. Why play something you play by yourself for 50, 60, 85 levels?

I liked exploring new areas with a group, talking strategy and watching our combined efforts pay off. I didn't care for games that held my hand as quests walked me through each zone. I want to explore, not be shown. To an extent I even liked the leisurely pace of the grind. At least until level 50 or so, then it got more than a little rediculous.

I disagree that leveling is or should be a chore to be blasted through so you get to the real content. By that logic, it serves utterly no purpose, and ought be abolished entirely. There's a reason I don't play shooters anymore, that style of gameplay lost it's lustre for me long ago. The same reason I chose FFXI over WoW and all it's clones for 7 years.

Regardless of how much fast paced action they throw at you, it's old hat. CoD has rehashed the same base mechanics since I can remember. I'm not even curious about iterations 9, 10 and 11. WoW hasn't "wowed" me since...ever? And while the thought of grinding more quests for my 3rd lvl 85 toon and shouldering an M4 to drop another insurgent make me nauseous, the thought of setting foot into valkurm with a fresh level 10 toon to begin the grind once more just has a sense of magic to it.

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Originally Posted by Levian

TL;DR: Not everyone shares your sentiments about leveling.

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Maybe I'm sick, but I disagree fully and heavily. For me leveling was never a chore. Save for the jobs I was all but forced to level (NIN, because everything subbed it) that I had a deep seated disdain for. And even at that, the social aspect you mentioned made it bearable.

I was always stoked to go to Valkurm and Qufim to share with newcomers the wealth of knowledge I had gained trekking God only knows how many jobs through across multiple characters. I liked it when a level 25 Qufim pt would split, and I could swap jobs to help some Fresh level 25 grind out his Khazam Keys. I looked forward to bouncing from Lizards, to crabs, to flys, to goblins, to Pugils then finally moving on to a new zone.

Don't remember the grind? Man, I reinvented the grind. Up in the 40s I would literally keep a party rolling for 48 hours straight on the weekends. I killed spiders and beetles like I was paid to do it, and liked it. There was more than 1 occasion I would see a player logoff to go to bed, only to watch him pop back up 8 hours later and go "Holy shit! You're still here!?" Yup, want back in? We need a DD, this one's about ready to drop of exhaustion. I didn't survive off coffee and Nodos to pt like a Chinese gil farmer because I had to, or because I wanted bragging rights. I did it because I enjoyed it.

The game wasn't designed to be a fast paced button masher, and that was fine for me. I enjoyed talking to people in my parties. Because quite frankly if it weren't for parties I wouldn't have been interacting with them. I didn't like solo xp and "MMOs" that allowed for solo play through 85% of the game. I don't get it. Why play something you play by yourself for 50, 60, 85 levels?

I liked exploring new areas with a group, talking strategy and watching our combined efforts pay off. I didn't care for games that held my hand as quests walked me through each zone. I want to explore, not be shown. To an extent I even liked the leisurely pace of the grind. At least until level 50 or so, then it got more than a little rediculous.

I disagree that leveling is or should be a chore to be blasted through so you get to the real content. By that logic, it serves utterly no purpose, and ought be abolished entirely. There's a reason I don't play shooters anymore, that style of gameplay lost it's lustre for me long ago. The same reason I chose FFXI over WoW and all it's clones for 7 years.

Regardless of how much fast paced action they throw at you, it's old hat. CoD has rehashed the same base mechanics since I can remember. I'm not even curious about iterations 9, 10 and 11. WoW hasn't "wowed" me since...ever? And while the thought of grinding more quests for my 3rd lvl 85 toon and shouldering an M4 to drop another insurgent make me nauseous, the thought of setting foot into valkurm with a fresh level 10 toon to begin the grind once more just has a sense of magic to it.

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Lol log and there you was still.... Where you in sylph? Brought back some old memories.

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Originally Posted by Wirritosama

Lol log and there you was still.... Where you in sylph? Brought back some old memories.

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Remora actually. The 2 characters I was on most were Shiroichi, and Levian. Fun as that was, I doubt I'll ever be able to pull that off again. A lot's changed since then.

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Originally Posted by Exn

This. I feel pretty much the same way. I also hear this alot from other people who played XI. Someone then explained to me that because XI was my first MMO, alot of that "epic feeling" was proly just due to that fact, and most people feel that way for their first MMO (that they enjoyed). According to him, you never really fully get that shock and awe again that you had from the 1st time..

Now I dunno if I agree with that, but I've tried a couple different mmo's since XI, and while XIV might get there, can't say that I've found anything that really does it for me yet.

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I don't agree actually. When I first logged into FFXIV I felt a hint of that old magic as I explored Limsa Lominsa. I have hopes for this game come 2.0, but in the mean time I'm trying not to burn myself out on it (hence lv 15.)

I wanted XI-2. I still do.

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Originally Posted by Wirritosama

"Skill up system was terrible don't bring that shit back spending 5 hrs for an .5 skill up...."

I have to agree I was t sure why this jp player wanted this system back lol.

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I never had a problem with the skill-up system. In fact I liked it because seeing those point increases were like little bit of instant gratification that progress is being made. I feel like in 14 not enough visual aid to leveling is shown. It just feel like a mindless nothingness is going on when leveling. And I never spent 5 hours going for .5 on anything. I always was able to reach max skill during leveling sessions and I actually had fun doing skill up parties to level up odd weapons (club for DRK, great sword for drk, sword for SAM, etc.) I thought it was a great idea :)

I loved the strict party requirements too, My friendships and relationships with people in that game were so great because I was forced to interact and I love it. Every job seemed to have a purpose in combat yet they could be interchanged quite well also with flexibility. I loved alliance fights, EXP was great, not really boring or anything for me, maybe in the late 70's before Treasures bird pt's were around but after that expansion it sped back up.

There were a lot of things about XI I liked when I played from 2003-2008. I really agree XI now might be kinda screwed but I have not played it since I started losing interest. (For me i eventually realized I was just in it for the gear and the endless loop of going for new gear patch to patch was not doing it for me anymore; this was while SE was still developing the main story for wings of the goddess a while after it was released).

So yeah, part of me wants XI-2 but I still like to see a serious new direction on top of it.

I never really ha a problem with it until I decided to Capp cloth craft or whatever it was and farm spider silk in that tunnel to get the clear glasses and make croches lol

Man can't believe you liked wailing on a mob for 10 hrs for 0.1 lol.

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Originally Posted by CrystalWeapon

Yes

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...le_flyer_2.jpg

;D

Going to be humming the theme for this all day long.

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... dammit! lol >.<

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Originally Posted by Firon

Man can't believe you liked wailing on a mob for 10 hrs for 0.1 lol.

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No offense, but if it literally took that long, you were doing it wrong. Time to move up to a tougher mob. I will agree it wasn't the most entertaining thing in the world. But it was another chance to meet people and shoot the breeze.

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Originally Posted by Wirritosama

I was browsing the japanese forums and noticed a lot of them crying about the game as well. They are very polite of course but at the same time demanding so it comes out sounding strange. I noticed some post about red Mage and how they where able to level magic skill by using them to skill up etc and how this was the best system etc. I thought the crying and return of XI was big in the NA side but seems to be the same across the world. Honestly do we want a completely new game or next gen XI? Personally I would like a complete and new game with SOME borrowed ideas that really worked for the community in XI. What do you want, half XIV/XI or a completely original game?

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I want a new game, but I do want to see them include proven concepts from XI and other games. I just want those concepts integrated into something that is uniquely XIV and not 'Game X V.2.'

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Originally Posted by Levian

No offense, but if it literally took that long, you were doing it wrong. Time to move up to a tougher mob. I will agree it wasn't the most entertaining thing in the world. But it was another chance to meet people and shoot the breeze.

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Maybe i should put /sarcasm but an last 0.1 in the tree fighting crabs could take hrs.

I suppose the biggest shock for me when you look at the two games isn't how BAD xiv was in comparison to XI, thats like comparing apples and oranges. Xi was far from perfect, and it certainly had issues that no one wants to see repeated here. What suprises me most though is how well XI evolved over the course of it's middle years, and how very little of that transfered over to this game. What I mean is, at some point they wisened up in XI and created level synching. This was a great method for dealing with all of us that hated wasting time trying to make very specific party setup to level with. SO many of the GOOD ideas that were in XI didn't come about right away, rather, they developed organically in response to the community. The part of XIV I will NEVER be able to understand is how many good systems that were developed over the course of XI's life that they never even attempted to place in XIV. How the hell you can keep a strait face when launching ANY MMO without basic mailbox, auctionhouse, and linkshells (guild) systems in place, especially after learning all you did when growing XI, will always be beyond my ability to understand.

Did I want an XI clone? Nope. But if you asked me when XIV released which I would rather have: A shitty steaming pile that will take another 2 years to redevelope, or an XI clone with better graphics, give me the clone everytime.

That being said, I very much like the direction the game is headed now, it just isn't happening fast enough for me :p

bring back MMM and job emotes and I'd be happy :D

I am having fun playing xiv, and I am looking forward to 2.0. That being said if FFXI-2 was announced I would be packing my bags. Since no such announcement has been made I will continue to enjoy XIV and hope that it continues to improve.

lol I guess what the OP is really trying to say is... that people are living in the past too much which is somewhat True... as for me I'm looking for FFXIV to be a way better experience in the long run... We Just need to be patient it takes an mmorpg time to grow :)

Seriously don't get the XI hate.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Maybe i should put /sarcasm but an last 0.1 in the tree fighting crabs could take hrs.

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Wouldn't know honestly. I didn't keep track of each .1 skill point, but when it got to the point that I was getting increments smaller than .3 or .2 (I think?) I would stop doing tree parties and either eat sushi and bust the weapon out in an LS static, or ask to use it for a few minutes in Sky.

People are generally terrified of change and MMO 'loyalty' is akin to loyalty to football teams for people... IE, everyone rabidly defends their MMO of choice and bashes the ever-loving hell out of any other. In the end, people need to realize that it doesn't matter where a good idea came from, it's still a good idea. This does include good ideas from XI as well (though you can't say an AH or LS/Party controls are something from XI because it's just common game design sense from any mmo).

The multiple job per character system is an amazing concept pulled from XI that I am glad XIV has. Skill points for weapons and spells I have to grind hours for? Not such a good idea.

I think there's way too much resentment from the community towards anything to do with WoW etc, however I also think there's a lot of fear from players who don't worship XI about anything from that MMO rising from the grave to "infect" this game. XI's not a horrible monster, it's just an old game. It used old ideas, many of which should be left to the past, and some which should be brought forward and expanded on into this next generation of MMOs.

I can tell you that I personally don't think anything needlessly tedious needs to be brought back, though. I love challenges, I love hard content, but doing something easy 500x is not "hard" as some people seem to think.

While I wouldn't want XIV to become XI-2, saying "Keep XI out of my XIV" is just pure ignorance.

Being developed by the same company, SE has the ability to pull on a past MMO for ideas, inspirations and systems. Honestly, they didn't use enough from XI at launch. The player search function, hotkeys and some other basic system items could have been implemented based on XI without changing XIV's core.

You have to take the good with the bad. You can't simply shun an idea because "They did it in XI" and you can't accept every idea because it was "Done in XI."

FFXI-2 with new story, cater better to casual players and take away some of the more horrible things.

I'm pretty sure tanaka wanted to make ffxi 2.0 but they forced him to release too early so they had to burn it down to look good.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I've played tons of MMOs and I have to say that FFXI was far my favorite next to mabinogi. Mabinogi would be number one IF it didn't have soo many instances.

Ya other MMOs have great ideas, but really... Final Fantasy, they should be taking MOST of their ideas from FFXI and a few from other games. Sorry but I would rather have FFXIV be closer related to FFXI than WoW or Rift or Starfail.

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The only problem with Mabinogi was Nexon, I loved that game.

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Originally Posted by Vuen

The only problem with Mabinogi was Nexon, I loved that game.

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I hear nothing but good things about Mabinogi , why do people quit that for XIV?

The people who quit xiv will return it never fails. I believe 2.0 will have a huge influx of new players making the community better than it already is and add some fun/new blood. With the addition of name changes and gender changes at 2.0 everything will feel new/fresh. We also have to remember that xi had a year plus to develope when it was Japan only. As far as Tanaka I can't put all the blame on him, in Japan you cannot do anything in a company without permission. So I'm sure some higher ups in the company who know nothing about the game are also to blame. ( hence why he was t fired ) at the same time they should have put someone who has played mmo and has experience as a gamer as well from day one. ( Naoki Yoshida )

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Originally Posted by Majidah

I'm pretty sure tanaka wanted to make ffxi 2.0 but they forced him to release too early so they had to burn it down to look good.

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that's definitely not what Tanaka said
from this interview

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Final Fantasy XI was more like related to the first early games in the series, and it's something that we always wanted to achieve online, but we think we've done what we can do for FFXI, so with FFXIV, we're looking for a next generation Final Fantasy game -- so it's going to be quite different.

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and also from this interview

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We will have a casual aspect, but we're not going to only target the casual players. Its really a users choice. We will be able to provide a variety of aspects to the game that casual players will enjoy but the hardcore players will enjoy it as well. And also for FFXI and FFXIV we aim to support both players, although FFXIV is using a new graphics engine, so we're providing current FFXI players with an option if they want to play FFXI of course that is fine, but they're also very welcome to play FFXIV.

Hiromichi Tanaka also says that it would be very nice if the players of other Final Fantasy games who never played FFXI would play FFXIV. So that is one of the goals.

So basically they're aiming at the Final Fantasy fans who haven't played MMO's due to having a casual aspect of FFXIV, but also at the same time giving the hardcore MMO players something to enjoy as well.

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Originally Posted by Wirritosama

The people who quit xiv will return it never fails. I believe 2.0 will have a huge influx of new players making the community better than it already is and add some fun/new blood. With the addition of name changes and gender changes at 2.0 everything will feel new/fresh. We also have to remember that xi had a year plus to develope when it was Japan only. As far as Tanaka I can't put all the blame on him, in Japan you cannot do anything in a company without permission. So I'm sure some higher ups in the company who know nothing about the game are also to blame. ( hence why he was t fired ) at the same time they should have put someone who has played mmo and has experience as a gamer as well from day one. ( Naoki Yoshida )

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I'm sure 2.0 will see new players but there is one thing that concerns me. All the updates we're getting are supposed to be huge but I don't see anybody returning, in fact it seems to me like the numbers are still going down.

They also aren't future proofing content, if other things had been patched to be kept relevant we'd have a lot of end game. However the way they're doing it now every patch nerfs all the new stuff from the last patch so we only have 2 things to do. I found that it wasn't that 1.0 wasn't a fun game, it was the bad UI and lack of content.


And I agree, you can't blame Tanaka. Tanaka is a brilliant game designer but when you're given strict rules you have to follow how can you put your full creativeness into a project? SE also makes a big mistake when they get the "Next-Gen" concept in mind. Next-Gen graphics, sure but when you change gameplay too much your fan base isn't going to like it.

I can't believe the same company that makes dragon quest games doesn't realize that, Dragon quest 8/9's battle systems are nearly identical to all their old games and people loved it. In fact 9 set a sales record in Japan.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

I'm sure 2.0 will see new players but there is one thing that concerns me. All the updates we're getting are supposed to be huge but I don't see anybody returning, in fact it seems to me like the numbers are still going down.

They also aren't future proofing content, if other things had been patched to be kept relevant we'd have a lot of end game. However the way they're doing it now every patch nerfs all the new stuff from the last patch so we only have 2 things to do. I found that it wasn't that 1.0 wasn't a fun game, it was the bad UI and lack of content.


And I agree, you can't blame Tanaka. Tanaka is a brilliant game designer but when you're given strict rules you have to follow how can you put your full creativeness into a project? SE also makes a big mistake when they get the "Next-Gen" concept in mind. Next-Gen graphics, sure but when you change gameplay too much your fan base isn't going to like it.

I can't believe the same company that makes dragon quest games doesn't realize that, Dragon quest 8/9's battle systems are nearly identical to all their old games and people loved it. In fact 9 set a sales record in Japan.

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They should def future proof content. Also I have seen new players just last week I spend a few hours showing a group of 4 new players the game and how to get about etc and a day prior to that 2 new ones. I think the numbers going down where the return of level 50 on all jobs getting AF the first week then getting bored again.

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Originally Posted by ArnoMorley

I can't believe the same company that makes dragon quest games doesn't realize that, Dragon quest 8/9's battle systems are nearly identical to all their old games and people loved it. In fact 9 set a sales record in Japan.

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On that same note... Final fantasy has been famous because it did change quite a bit from game to game...
ATB in FFIV, Sphere grid and battle in X, no random battles in FFXII. Unique faster fighting of FFXIII.
No 2 battle systems are exactly the same... no 2 games have the exact same classes and jobs...

thats the major thing about this game... It didn't fail because someone tried to be different... it failed because it was rushed, underdeveloped and laggy

edit: also SE didn't technically make DQ9, that was Level-5... remember Dark Cloud?

XI was more successful. I'm still unsure why SE strayed away from that recipe in the first place.

We see how far it got them.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

On that same note... Final fantasy has been famous because it did change quite a bit from game to game...
ATB in FFIV, Sphere grid and battle in X, no random battles in FFXII. Unique faster fighting of FFXIII.
No 2 battle systems are exactly the same... no 2 games have the exact same classes and jobs...

thats the major thing about this game... It didn't fail because someone tried to be different... it failed because it was rushed, underdeveloped and laggy

edit: also SE didn't technically make DQ9, that was Level-5... remember Dark Cloud?

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There's a difference between changing a bit and changing too much though (and changing into something bad). The ATB was the biggest change they ever made but it was a good thing because it set it apart from other RPGs, but kept it a good RPG. I think 4-9 did the battle system right, different methods of growth but a similar battle style, turn based/atb.

I think that's what more people wanted, just like more people wanted an XI-2 than what 14 is. The problem is also that they're changing just for the sake of changing. They don't actually have some genius idea up their sleeve that warrants changing they're just trying to conform to a "mainstream" and always fail to do so.

ok u need to think about what you just said. ppl from WoW, rift and othergames want xiv to be just like those games yall came from. so u cant sit there and say that its wrong that xi vets want xiv to have similarities. xi vets like the xi system where as yall WoW players like that system. u cant make a game like any other game. thats why xi stood out from the rest. and i pray to god that xiv doesnt end up like all those other cookie cut mmos.

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Originally Posted by ThePatriarch

XI was more successful. I'm still unsure why SE strayed away from that recipe in the first place.

We see how far it got them.

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Success is a relative term....
SE wanted to market the game to people who loved FFXI... and some people who never played FFXI....
FFXI was indeed successful, with 500k subs
but FFXIII (Admittedly an offline title) sold almost 4 times that in the first day in Japan Alone
As a business that wants to make a profit... and as a developer that wants to share your vision with the world... even with the success of FFXI, you have to consider making a game that appeals to a wider audience...

Pre release Tanaka said the main goal of FFXIV was to appeal to casual gamers, more hardcore gamers that didn't choose to play FFXI and also FFXI vets
Yoshi has reiterated this also
It doesn't always have to be "This group vs That Group"

The hardcore FFXI conservatives need to learn to say:
"Its possible to like some feature, even if it isn't from FFXI"

And the Anti-FFXI liberals need to learn to say:
"A suggestion isn't bad just because it is from FFXI, I will judge the suggestion on it's own merit"

and at that point I think we will all get along a lot better

Xi 2 please