NIN in 5.1

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Dunno if my math is just bad, but NIN seems like it got pretty buffed overall.

Ninjutsu potency was mostly doubled across the board with Suiton getting an even bigger buff to 600 potency, combo finishers got buffed slightly, and Kassatsu is on a tiny 15 second cooldown.

The only actual nerfs as far as I can tell are are Trick Attack's debuff being 5% but lasting five seconds longer, Shadow Fang being on a 70 second cooldown and Bhavacakra having lower potency/taking longer to accumulate ninki for.

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That's my thoughts as well. So, essentially we're getting super GCDs now. Hyosho Ranryu looks super spicy. And if understand how the new system works, it's essentially on 20 seconds cooldown.

We going Naruto now boys!
This change looks great in paper, can't wait till it drops

Dunno about it, so far my static and our NIN is pretty unhappy about it. Until now we were mostly trying to use the 10% from trick attack to full capacity in raids but now talk is that we're going to drop it with our NIN switching to another job. The whole question will be how NIN will hold their own against DRK/MNK in DPS to be worth bringing along or not for the two melee-spots in raiding-environment

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Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

Dunno about it, so far my static and our NIN is pretty unhappy about it. Until now we were mostly trying to use the 10% from trick attack to full capacity in raids but now talk is that we're going to drop it with our NIN switching to another job. The whole question will be how NIN will hold their own against DRK/MNK in DPS to be worth bringing along or not for the two melee-spots in raiding-environment

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Nah.. All the other buffs NIN got will easily override the TA loss, and possibly increase overall DPS :)

im definitely ready to try it out. This looks like a loss in rDPS but a significant gain in aDPS. We'll see how fluid it feels. The old opener did not allow us to put TenChiJin within the TA window because it was too short, but the increase of TA to 15 seconds means we may be able to TA with our first Suiton and then use Mesui with the second one from TenChiJin. This would result in a pretty significant gain in our opener if we can still fit the remaining DwaD, Assasinate, and 2 Kassatsus in it too.

I hope these changes dont slow down the job. One of the things I loved about Ninja was how fast paced and wild it was, now that the mudras are on a GCD I wonder how it will feel using them. One change I really dislike is the change to Shadow Fang. I don't like the idea of a dot going on such a long cool down; I preferred it being a 2 part combo.

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Originally Posted by Siete

We going Naruto now boys!
This change looks great in paper, can't wait till it drops

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I don't think Naruto ever had to stand around for a full 2 seconds just to use and activate 3 hand-signs for barely more damage than his typical ppgcd? We were already doing almost 420 ppgcd; without those further buffs, a Raiton would only be a potency bonus of 5, and that's assuming no SkS to waste. Fuma would have been a dps loss regardless. If those Ninjutsu potency buffs aren't huge, that previously vital part of our class is going to vary between trap and some scant percent-increase to our output.

So here's an odd question. Why didn't they just make Shadow Fang the second hit in a "new" Armor Crush combo, going from Spinning Edge into Shadow Fang into Armor Crush?

Was it mentioned whether or not ninjutsu is affected by haste now due to it effectively being a weaponskill?

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

im definitely ready to try it out. This looks like a loss in rDPS but a significant gain in aDPS. We'll see how fluid it feels. The old opener did not allow us to put TenChiJin within the TA window because it was too short, but the increase of TA to 15 seconds means we may be able to TA with our first Suiton and then use Mesui with the second one from TenChiJin. This would result in a pretty significant gain in our opener if we can still fit the remaining DwaD, Assasinate, and 2 Kassatsus in it too.

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Hmm, I've always started TA with a TCJ. I guess I've been doing it wrong.
Anyway, TCJ will be a lot faster as well, since it's lost 3 keystrokes.

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Originally Posted by SamSmoot

Nah.. All the other buffs NIN got will easily override the TA loss, and possibly increase overall DPS :)

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My static brought a NIN even when they were hot garbage so I don't see how this could be worse than 5.0 release

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Was it mentioned whether or not ninjutsu is affected by haste now due to it effectively being a weaponskill?

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I don't think it was mentioned, but we know the new changes are based on what they've learned from the dances, and Haste effects don't appear to affect them either. So I would think their CDs would remain constant. Which is why the potencies were massively increased.

I guess with Trick Attack lasting longer now it should be possible to squeeze both TCJ and Bunshin into it now.

Maybe a better opener would be Suiton > Spinning Edge (Mug+Kassatsu) > Gale Slash (Trick Attack+ Shadow Fang) > Hyoshin (Bunshin) > Aeolian Edge (DWD+TCJ) > Raiton (Assassinate)

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Originally Posted by Eloah

So here's an odd question. Why didn't they just make Shadow Fang the second hit in a "new" Armor Crush combo, going from Spinning Edge into Shadow Fang into Armor Crush?

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im guessing its because if you have to refresh huton with armor crush you could potentially waste potency on shadow fang refreshing it early just to get to armor crush. unless they dont remove the ability to get to armor crush through gust slash

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Originally Posted by 0Lime

im guessing its because if you have to refresh huton with armor crush you could potentially waste potency on shadow fang refreshing it early just to get to armor crush. unless they dont remove the ability to get to armor crush through gust slash

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Though Huton lasts longer, so the refresh would fall on Shadow Fang more, but meh, what's done is done. Not like I mained Ninja, but I feel for those who do, like my friend, T.T

Another odd question is, why have they not fixed the ability names. Aeolian means relating to wind, so it would make sense for that to refresh Huton. And Armor Crush sound like it should be the highest hitting weapon skill. Ah but these are personal gripes.

I'm just a casual NIN player, so I am/was unaware that NIN was in such a place that warranted such drastic changes. I was fine with how it was with the exception of echoed mudra/ping woes, but looking forward to basically learning how to play it again. I still believe the devs want to achieve a 1:1 ratio of ninjitsu and melee combat for NIN. Perhaps even 2:1 in favor of ninjitsu, but first glance at these potency increases from someone of my perspective would definitely make it seem that if NIN had personal DPS issues; they've been addressed in this new patch.

What I do know is that I've always felt like NIN could have some button presses reduced. Things like the change to TCJ no longer requiring a mudra+ninjitsu input is a VERY welcome change.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Though Huton lasts longer, so the refresh would fall on Shadow Fang more, but meh, what's done is done. Not like I mained Ninja, but I feel for those who do, like my friend, T.T

Another odd question is, why have they not fixed the ability names. Aeolian means relating to wind, so it would make sense for that to refresh Huton. And Armor Crush sound like it should be the highest hitting weapon skill. Ah but these are personal gripes.

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i just hope it doesnt become too easy to play. now shadow fang is just a fire and forget ability every 70 sec, thats one less thing to really manage ontop of the other stuff we dont have to manage anymore. also yeah i always thought armor crush refreshing huton was weird instead of AE which is a wind ability.

I had a slight hunch the Kassatsu cooldown being listed as 15 seconds was an error.

It's still one minute and thus remains relegated strictly to Trick Attack windows.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I had a slight hunch the Kassatsu cooldown being listed as 15 seconds was an error.

It's still one minute and thus remains relegated strictly to Trick Attack windows.

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My dream of using ninjutsu faster is dead.

I love the Ten Chi Jin change, but the mudra change I am a bit iffy about. It feels very slow and a bit clunky to me atm.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I love the Ten Chi Jin change, but the mudra change I am a bit iffy about. It feels very slow and a bit clunky to me atm.

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Despite it does feel clunkier to cast them, I feel like I'm dropping more jutsus than before

For sure Ninja needed changes but that list and of the the potency increases.. damn

As a casual NIN player, I only had time to run a couple of dungeons to test things out before I had to hop off, but so far I'm liking the changes.

Mudras feel a bit slower since they're on the GCD now, but overall (with the charges and changes to Kassatsu, Ten Chi Jin, etc.) it doesn't feel better or worse, just different.

On the plus side, the changes seem to have fixed the issues I was having with mudras so I can play NIN without constant bunnies now, and I'm liking the TA/potency changes.

Gonna have to play some more, but so far? Seems cool.

While I drooled at the 104k crit direct hit from hyosho.... having played nin since 2.4, it's extremely hard to get used to mudra being on gcd now; I prob summoned more bunnies than I thought possible... This will take a while for me to get used to.

Anyone has the new opener for nin now? My random opener now has 3 ninjutsus inside the TA window...

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I love the Ten Chi Jin change, but the mudra change I am a bit iffy about. It feels very slow and a bit clunky to me atm.

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My thoughts exactly. TCJ feels buttery smooth. Ninjutsu? Anything but. I'd have much preferred a psuedo-GCD (thus allowing queuing to bypass ping's uptime cost up to 250 ms ping--as opposed to oGCDs, which always have an uptime cost of twice your ping) that scales with SkS.

These fixed GCD timers are just so counterintuitive... They got rid of it for Tsubame-Gaeshi and Flamethrower (not that the latter matters, in that it still server-ticks), and applied the same scaling to Meditate and Anatman GCDs, so why did that leave Ninjutsu unaffected?

Yep, same experience. TCJ change is great, everything else, not so much. Mudra gcd's feel weird, and break the flow old Ninja had. I know it's early, and we should give the changes a week or so, but jeez.

I'm a Ninja main, casual though. Regardless I enjoyed the pre-5.1 Ninja for how fast-paced it was. The 5.1 Ninja changes I generally approve of over disapprove. While slower than before it's still fast-paced relative to other classes; TCJ change is flat out improvement. Regarding Mudras, definitely feels awkward but with what I've played around with so far I think over the next week or two I'll be able to get the hang of it.

The main reason the old opener used Meisui and TCJ ASAP was so that Bunshin would be ready before Trick Attack and properly align with it every other Trick Attack window, but due to its ninki cost being lowered just using Mug is enough to have it ready by the second GCD. Bunshin having a shorter cooldown in 5.1 also means it's not going to align with Trick Attack outside of the opener unless you wait 20 seconds or so and I'm not sure that's actually worth it.

I've been doing this instead, though I'm thinking it's probably better to do Spinning Edge + Gale Slash instead of the second Raiton to make more use of Bunshin (It's 420+530 potency vs. 800 and there should be barely enough time to get them off before TA drops).

So this is just my opinion but the new 5.1 NIN update kinda ruined my main class and made the game not as fun.

First off, they changed it to where you cant cue up Mundras while doing combos. What makes NIN and Rogue fun is that you’re always quickly pressing buttons. It can be confusing and ‘clunky’ for sure to be using mundras and combos and the like but if you wanted a structured class move to Samurai or literally any other class. Not saying ninja wouldnt use reform. Now Ninja is just a boring combo mundras combo mundras combo mundras combo mundras combo mundras style fight.

They even removed Shadow Fang from the combos so now you only have 1 combo path. And before Shadow fang didnt stack so there was no harm in repeatedly being able to use it especially since its potency was only 200 it was actually a waste to use it too much. But it was nice when running dungeons and smaller enemies to be able to use it each new enemy instead of getting to use it for one enemy then waiting 60 seconds, beating 7 enemies and then getting to use it again for just minuscule amounts of damage.
Although this one doesnt bother me as much as slowing down the ninja actions. It does make the ninja more boring.

Although I can agree Ninja could use some reform, making it slowed down and making it to where you have to follow a set pattern, combo mundras combo mundras without even variations in the combo (and lets be real only the lightning mundras is useful in most situations or the water one. So you’re not really doing much there.) really slowed down ninja. Rogues are suppose to be quick and unpredictable, yet now it has a very structured slow and boring key pattern. I can concede ninja is a little awkward but honestly its just a problem for people who don’t main the class. For people who actually main the class being able to cue up mundras and switch up combos is the best part of playing a Rogue or Ninja class.

I am curious to hear other people’s opinions, although please note if you are a Nin main or other main because I think that makes a difference.

I overall enjoy the changes. Have been a nin main since release of nin (yes even in 5.0 i refused to switch)

We are still the highest cpm class. But by a smaller margin now.

Latency effects us way less.

Planning and properly holding during downtime/non trick is still involved especially in planning specific fights

We are become what i hoped as a hybrid melee. (I constantly say i want 2 more melee classes added that are hybrid melee so melee can be split like ranged and caster were into melee/hybrid) by properly learning fights we can basically have 100% gcd uptime now once we learn to hold ninjutsus right.

Damage still needs at least a week to see where 5.1 sets us, but it feels good enough to me right now.

Our burst is better than ever.

My big and only serious complaints are:

SkS still sucks. About 30% of our gcd time is uneffected by sks. I think all out gcd moves should be effected by sks but at the least: If not the .5 second mudra casts, the 1.5 ninjutsu casts and the 1 second casts mid tcj should be effected by sks. So what if it means players might clip weaving after a ninjutsu. Now thats their choice. Shadowfang which should be effected well by sks is not because it cant be kept up anymore and even with high sks its a loss via drift from trick if used to full potential.
Bunshin which should have been the most sks effected skill is now completely disconnected from it since it has a set 5 charges.
Its just bad and that upsets me greatly. I want to be a speedy ninja.

Movement away from blade play and rogue type of combat.

Despite planning that has to be done the 45seconds of non trick are.... pretty boring. Not crazy boring but. Yeah not exciting either.

As someone that hasn't hit 70 yet, can I maybe get a clearer explanation of what these changes entail? I'm seeing a lot of "TCJ" this and "Mesui" that, etc, and from the sound of it, endgame NIN seems like it was maybe improved. But I'm not entirely sure I understand how things are supposed to run down here in the 60s (or below).

I can sorta understand that ninjutsu potencies were increased to compensate for no more weaving, right?
So, I'm meant to spend one charge on Huton outside of combat (and periodically during combat prior to AC).
Plan on spending the second charge on Suiton for TA, and Kass in another ninjutsu for big damage? Plus lining up whatever oGCDs there are for the window, presumably.

I guess in the end it doesn't play all that different, does it? Just sorta slowed things down, less to weave? Idk. I'm just having trouble understanding this idea of stop doing things for a few GCDs so you can cast a thing. Am I meant to be weaving there? I'm bad at hitting perfect windows and optimal TA times and all that, but I at least like to understand what should be happening, if I paid better attention.

Personally, they should redo the class like they did MCH.

I never played ninja before the change but I’m loving it right now. Animations are really nice, a melee class that uses spells is pretty fun to play. I think it feels quite good to someone who didn’t know what it was before.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

As someone that hasn't hit 70 yet, can I maybe get a clearer explanation of what these changes entail? I'm seeing a lot of "TCJ" this and "Mesui" that, etc, and from the sound of it, endgame NIN seems like it was maybe improved. But I'm not entirely sure I understand how things are supposed to run down here in the 60s (or below).

I can sorta understand that ninjutsu potencies were increased to compensate for no more weaving, right?
So, I'm meant to spend one charge on Huton outside of combat (and periodically during combat prior to AC).
Plan on spending the second charge on Suiton for TA, and Kass in another ninjutsu for big damage? Plus lining up whatever oGCDs there are for the window, presumably.

I guess in the end it doesn't play all that different, does it? Just sorta slowed things down, less to weave? Idk. I'm just having trouble understanding this idea of stop doing things for a few GCDs so you can cast a thing. Am I meant to be weaving there? I'm bad at hitting perfect windows and optimal TA times and all that, but I at least like to understand what should be happening, if I paid better attention.

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You should always start combat with 2 charges of Ninjutsu, as you can reset one with Hide after putting up/refreshing Huton. You can't weave between mudras, but you can single weave before them and after Ninjutsu itself. Kassatsu no longer resets Ninjutsu cd, but instead allows you to use it once outside of regular charges, so you can hit Kassatsu to put it on cd while you have a Ninjutsu charge ready without wasting casts like before.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Personally, they should redo the class like they did MCH.

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Mmm yea, that way they can piss off both fans of old NIN and the new. Brilliant.

Ninja feels a bit less fun to play now
shadowfang feels clunky and honestly feels like it should now be baked into a different ability all together as you so sparingly it might as well not be there.

Tenchijin was a good change so was changing murdas to two stacks with a good change but putting it on the global CD was just awful

Ninjutsu change to gcd slowly the class down, it removes the weaving aspect. it doesn't feel like a ninja anymore it feels like a boring baseline class that removes the spontaneousness. And for that I don't find it enjoyable as it was between classic heavensward or stormblood it's less than that. As it's the only class I really enjoy playing another hit like this is going to end my sub

Yes it help high ping players but however they were different classes I didn't depend so highly on PING but they changed the class almost something else entirely for the sake of accessibility.

The rework made most pre-existing ninja names hate it that had a little latency. While those were the higher ping/ those who want to get in the class enjoy it now