Which rule states that parses can't be posted in chat?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm more laughing at the irony of the fact that parsing is against the ToS when fight encounters are built around DPS checks and enrages. And then you have jobs like AST and DNC that are supposed to buff the highest damage dealers... but how are we supposed to know without a tool that shows us numbers.

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Because they know it's a grey area.
One that can be used by the 'hardcore' players, while protecting the masses of casual players who might feel harassed by their use.

It's not difficult to not openly talk about parsers in public chat.
In your static, or a like-minded linkshell or FC, you have nothing to worry about.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm more laughing at the irony of the fact that parsing is against the ToS when fight encounters are built around DPS checks and enrages. And then you have jobs like AST and DNC that are supposed to buff the highest damage dealers... but how are we supposed to know without a tool that shows us numbers.

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Well there is the old fashioned way. Look at who kills what faster under certain circumstances. It's nothing resembling in-depth data but it is a way to see what classes have stronger single target, aoe, burst, etc. And compare players with one another as well for performance.

Far from ideal but life uh finds a way.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I'm more laughing at the irony of the fact that parsing is against the ToS when fight encounters are built around DPS checks and enrages. And then you have jobs like AST and DNC that are supposed to buff the highest damage dealers... but how are we supposed to know without a tool that shows us numbers.

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It's a gray area, and that's probably a large part of why they don't enforce it unless someone's harassing people.

I mean, technically speaking, any third-party software that gives an advantage is against the ToS. With that in mind, I would like to humbly point out that it's a LOT easier to proceed in certain fights when you can shout at someone (or be shouted at by someone) rather than stopping to type...and a well-known third-party software called Discord (or Ventrilo or Teamspeak) allows just this. In other words, technically speaking, Discord is potentially against the ToS. :P

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

It's a gray area, and that's probably a large part of why they don't enforce it unless someone's harassing people.

I mean, technically speaking, any third-party software that gives an advantage is against the ToS. With that in mind, I would like to humbly point out that it's a LOT easier to proceed in certain fights when you can shout at someone (or be shouted at by someone) rather than stopping to type...and a well-known third-party software called Discord (or Ventrilo or Teamspeak) allows just this. In other words, technically speaking, Discord is potentially against the ToS. :P

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But it's not about whether or not it gives an advantage. It's about whether or not the third party software you are using directly interacts with the game files. Voice chat doesn't do that.

And to add to this: having third party software installed isn't against the ToS. Using it to interact with FFXIV game files is. SE don't care if you have a parser, botting software or whatever installed. They only care if you use it with their game.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But it's not about whether or not it gives an advantage. It's about whether or not the third party software you are using directly interacts with the game files. Voice chat doesn't do that.

And to add to this: having third party software installed isn't against the ToS. Using it to interact with FFXIV game files is. SE don't care if you have a parser, botting software or whatever installed. They only care if you use it with their game.

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Actually, the language is whether it interacts with the game...not necessarily the games files, and not directly nor indirectly.

Last time I checked, Discord had an overlay...that (albeit indirectly) does interact with the game.

I'm not saying they're going to go out and ban Discord users, mind you (I'd be quite surprised if they did, tbh)...merely saying that technically they wrote their ToS in such a way that they could.

I've been playing this game for years, and have never seen people banned (or suspended) for parsers (as long as they weren't harassing others), Discord (or other voice chats), etc. In fact, other than people who said something in an official location, I haven't even seen people so much as suspended for buying gil (probably because it's hard to prove). It's important to remember that SE isn't some evil company out to ban people just because they can...but they have written the rules in such a way that when somebody crosses the line to the point that they do...it's pretty ironclad.

The overlay doesn't interact with the game. It reads no data from the game. It does nothing to the game. The overlay only interacts with your screen.

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Originally Posted by HWalsh

The overlay doesn't interact with the game. It reads no data from the game. It does nothing to the game. The overlay only interacts with your screen.

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ACT (if that's what you mean by "overlay") reads network packets, entity lists, and combat log files. It's a "utility" that "interacts" with the game by scraping logs and packets, basically. So, against the TOS. Oh, and you can use plugins in ACT to automate some things, too. It actually does a lot of things besides showing you how much DPS you do, you can have it notify you of hunt mobs within your draw distance, it can track movements of your party and enemies in a fight, etc. It's great and luckily gets turned a blind eye on.

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Originally Posted by YojimboM

ACT (if that's what you mean by "overlay") reads network packets, entity lists, and combat log files. It's a "utility" that "interacts" with the game by scraping logs and packets, basically. So, against the TOS. Oh, and you can use plugins in ACT to automate some things, too. It actually does a lot of things besides showing you how much DPS you do, you can have it notify you of hunt mobs within your draw distance, it can track movements of your party and enemies in a fight, etc. It's great and luckily gets turned a blind eye on.

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I was referring to Discord.

I'm hardcore anti-parser.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Because they know it's a grey area.
One that can be used by the 'hardcore' players, while protecting the masses of casual players who might feel harassed by their use.

It's not difficult to not openly talk about parsers in public chat.
In your static, or a like-minded linkshell or FC, you have nothing to worry about.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

It's a gray area, and that's probably a large part of why they don't enforce it unless someone's harassing people.

I mean, technically speaking, any third-party software that gives an advantage is against the ToS. With that in mind, I would like to humbly point out that it's a LOT easier to proceed in certain fights when you can shout at someone (or be shouted at by someone) rather than stopping to type...and a well-known third-party software called Discord (or Ventrilo or Teamspeak) allows just this. In other words, technically speaking, Discord is potentially against the ToS. :P

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I’m aware that parsing is a grey area and very “don’t ask, don’t tell”. I’m just pointing out the irony of how the developers don’t really like the idea of players parsing; but then they design encounters entirely around DPS checks, and design jobs like DNC and AST that exist to pad high DPS players. The developers have come to begrudgingly accept that players parse, but I don’t think they particularly like it. But this is just my opinion.

I also know that it’s not difficult to not mention it in chat. No need to tell me that. :P

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well there is the old fashioned way. Look at who kills what faster under certain circumstances. It's nothing resembling in-depth data but it is a way to see what classes have stronger single target, aoe, burst, etc. And compare players with one another as well for performance.

Far from ideal but life uh finds a way.

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This doesn’t help against any fight that is a single-target, though...

So, any content where damage would actually matter.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

I mean, technically speaking, any third-party software that gives an advantage is against the ToS. With that in mind, I would like to humbly point out that it's a LOT easier to proceed in certain fights when you can shout at someone (or be shouted at by someone) rather than stopping to type...and a well-known third-party software called Discord (or Ventrilo or Teamspeak) allows just this. In other words, technically speaking, Discord is potentially against the ToS. :P

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No, what is against the ToS is any third-party software that pulls data from the game, or modifies any part of the game or game data. Advantage has nothing to do with it.

So using Discord or Teamspeak or whatever just to get a voice channel to other players is not against the ToS since Discord/Teamspeak/etc does not interact with the game data.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Actually, the language is whether it interacts with the game...not necessarily the games files, and not directly nor indirectly.

Last time I checked, Discord had an overlay...that (albeit indirectly) does interact with the game.

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Depends on how you use Discord. If (like me) you use the web-based version of Discord then there is no overlay of any sort.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Depends on how you use Discord. If (like me) you use the web-based version of Discord then there is no overlay of any sort.

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Fair enough, but my point honestly was more about 'the rules are intentionally broad' rather than 'X is necessarily bad.'

As I said, I know of several people who use several tools that may indirectly interact with the game, some of them being parsers, some of them being overlays related to parses, some of them being as simple as voice chats.

Also, I'm surprised you can get by without the actual client for Discord. No system-wide PTT would drive me insane.