Paladin. I dont feel I'm actually playing a Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

Kind of defeats the cross role system with 4.0.

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PLD pretty much does this anyway since it has its own version of 2 role skills

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

and FFT Holy Knights were a powerhouse special class with instant skills with long range and no MP cost that could never be dodged or evaded, that inflicted debuffs too.

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I wish Holy Spirit had that animation.

They gave Rofocale the Knight's Rend Weapon sound effect on his tank buster, too .. so close ; ;

In the Japanese version of FFXIV Paladin is actually called Knight. But its the typical sword and shield user who uses white colored armor. Paladin is more of a western word for white knight.

Rofocle and Argus both use Divine Knight skills, Rend Weapon and Rend Helmet. I sort of think Goring Blade resembles Rend Armor (Shellbust Stab) as it has the crescent ground spike, and Holy Spirit is definitely a nod to Beatrix's Shock. Similar cast animation and effect too.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Rofocle and Argus both use Divine Knight skills, Rend Weapon and Rend Helmet.

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They're Knight skills first.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Holy Spirit is definitely a nod to Beatrix's Shock. Similar cast animation and effect too.

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Except Shock is not exclusive to Beatrix. Steiner also has it.

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Originally Posted by VCassara

I'm honestly not aware of any "Paladin design" in the FF series. It would be easier if we had such thing.

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FF1: knight- access to swords/axes/hammers, shields, heavy armour and white magic
FF3: knight- access to daggers/swords, shields, heavy armour and white magic. Uses the defend command to increase defence and covers allies with low hp.
FF4: Cecil- the first "actual" PLD, access to swords/axes/bows/daggers/staves, shields and heavy armour and white magic. Can use cover to defend allies and will automatically cover allies on low hp.
FF5: knight- access to daggers/swords, shields and heavy armour. Uses cover to defend allies and guard to reduce damage taken to themselves.
FF11: Paladin- access to swords/clubs/staves/great swords/daggers/spears, shields, heavy armour and white magic. Uses cover and rampart to defend party members and sentinel and invincible to reduce their own damage taken.

So the common themes shared with FF14's PLD:
weapon- uses swords
shields- uses shields
armour- uses heavy armour
white magic- clemency and holy spirit
covers allies- cover, intervention and passage of arms
defends themselves- sentinel, hallowed ground.

And while yes most of these iterations are knight, in the Japanese version the job in FF14 is translated as knight, so in FF they are considered the same thing.

I'd say PLD is the most "PLD-like" it's ever been since ARR.

In 2.0 it had no native magic only having access to CNJ cross class giving it cure, protect and stoneskin (all of which were useless due to WHM having traited versions so the PLD never needed to even set them). It felt more like a gladiator than a paladin at this time as it's main focus was defensive cooldowns.

In 3.0 the traited versions of protect and stoneskin were gone so PLD's actually started setting those spells. Cure was out because the scaling was so poor it was weaker than an enemy auto attack but PLD also got clemency. It still didn't feel quite right because clemency used so much mp that the PLD could only use it once or twice before being out of mp, it also could be interrupted which made it difficult to use as a tank and they had no offensive white magic so they hardly ever cast due to it being a dps loss. It also had the weakest defence of all the tanks at this time due to it being focused on physical mitigation when most enemies were magical.

Now in 4.0 PLD gets a trait to prevent casting interruptions so they're free to cast even while tanking, clemency is cheaper making it an effective heal, PLD's can even take over healing entirely in low end content like dungeons. They also have holy spirit so they're constantly switching between physical damage and magical damage so casting white magic has become a major part of their identity. And now due to the changes to blocking PLD feels like the sturdiest tank again being able to block any damage passively and force blocks on tank busters while also having the strongest defensive cooldowns like sentinel and hallowed ground.

i agree with the "flash" skill need to get rework animation wise, its just look underwhelming, WAR is a doing this full frontal assault swing which look and sound powerful while DRK has this cool move plummeting it sword to the ground and claw springing out in a satisfying effect and sound. then PLD is just a small quick snap of light =/

i mean i know PLD is all about duty discipline and protecting the weak attitude but, that "flash" skill really need some upgrade graphic wise.

Paladin feels the most thematically solid. It can block, it can cover, it can heal, it's sturdy and it has holy magic.

To me it's Warrior and Dark Knight that feel off.
Dark Knight more so that Warrior, although that's partially because Warrior had already taken some obvious Dark Knight territory before Dark Knight was added.

I think I understand what the OP is getting at and let me say I’d be all for adding more magic elements to the job. Prior to SB and what we knew of it, I said utilizing pld’s mp as a resource would probably be how they boosted its dps since it was underutilized. But right now we’re in a bit of a bind.

The only resource left for more holy knight things would be an attack or attacks using the oath gauge but that runs the risk of making it too similar to bloodspiller/quietus.

I like that Oath gauge can only be spent on defensive abilities, just feels right.

If we wanted to add more magic upgrading Flash would be an easy way to do it. Flash replaced with calling down a lightning bolt on yourself that damages and blinds foes would be pretty bad-ass tbh.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I like that Oath gauge can only be spent on defensive abilities, just feels right.

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The problem with that is that defensive skills are always situational, which leaves the oath gauge untouched for most of the fight, which is the number one biggest complaint about it. Compare PLDs MP management before and after holy spirit was introduced, before we had flash and clemency - which meant that any time other than AOE our MP was untouched, and now we even have total eclipse, making MP even less relevant even in an AOE setting.

Now compare this to after holy spirit, where MP is used offensively and regularly (something which can't be done defensively without a massive overhaul of the job's core - at which point PLD becomes what DRK is supposed to be), and we see how much more fluid, useful and fun the MP mechanic is for PLD. It feeling right is poor justification for ignoring things that would massively improve glaring flaws within the oath gauge system.

I'm still waiting for flash to be traited into Holiest of the Holy used by the Heavensward - it even shares the same cast animation. Someday, maybe.

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Originally Posted by KatsuraJun

I'm still waiting for flash to be traited into Holiest of the Holy used by the Heavensward - it even shares the same cast animation. Someday, maybe.

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I honestly think Flash should be changed when under Requiescat to Shock. Gives a reason to use Req under trash packs and add phases in raids.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

stuff

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You're reasoning doesn't seem all that different to mine at it's core, cut out the fluff and your essential point seems to be that you don't like the feeling of sitting on spare oath gauge when you could theoretically be spending it to increase DPS.

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Originally Posted by SiriusSaltstice

I honestly think Flash should be changed when under Requiescat to Shock. Gives a reason to use Req under trash packs and add phases in raids.

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It actually feels particularly "Paladin" to me that once out of TP, your only way to deal AoE DPS is to self-heal while your healer is the one to deal that damage. I like that Paladin shoves in your face every way in which your damage is your party's and vice-versa, that indirect contribution is -- in effect -- no different than direct contribution.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I like that Oath gauge can only be spent on defensive abilities, just feels right.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The problem with that is that defensive skills are always situational, which leaves the oath gauge untouched for most of the fight, which is the number one biggest complaint about it. Compare PLDs MP management before and after holy spirit was introduced, before we had flash and clemency - which meant that any time other than AOE our MP was untouched, and now we even have total eclipse, making MP even less relevant even in an AOE setting.

Now compare this to after holy spirit, where MP is used offensively and regularly (something which can't be done defensively without a massive overhaul of the job's core - at which point PLD becomes what DRK is supposed to be), and we see how much more fluid, useful and fun the MP mechanic is for PLD. It feeling right is poor justification for ignoring things that would massively improve glaring flaws within the oath gauge system.

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While I agree the practicals of your conclusion, Lambda, I don't think your view is irreconcilable with Oath being a (directly speaking, or "at a glance") Defensives-only gauge "feeling right". I think the larger issue is in the imbalance in the effectiveness of status effects in this game, Flash being case in point -- it doesn't scale with buffs and its actual value is all over the place.

Let's consider, though, how unique and interesting a source of AoE damage, independant or otherwise, if we allowed for one underlying code change of, imo, universal benefit, and two small toolkit changes.

First, the code change.

At present, no status effects scale with buffs, potencies, etc. Damaging ability, weaponskill, spell, whatever it might be. This is bound to either overpower them in respect to scalar skills when outside of buffs and/or underpower them when within those buff windows. It also means that the value of said buff varies entirely with the stats of the target to be affected. A 20% slow, if actually permitted to function on more than 5% of the game's mobs again, could be worth a significant amount of damage, so long as the mob normally deals a lot, and will see use so long as a fifth of the target's damage is worth more in healer damage or the like over the additional offensive healer GCDs thereby permitable than the tank's or DPS's alternate or directly-damaging use of that GCD or shared resource ability would be. That's a mouthful, to be sure, but it's also straightforward math.

But, since virtually every enemy who would ever have enough throughput to be worth spending a GCD on mitigation for is immune to mitigation by enfeeblement... status effects become basically obsolete or bonus fluff on something you would have used anyways. Worse yet, in some ways, the few status effects (most noticeably Blind) that do tend to work on, say, trash packs, do so in way that is difficult to manage and is largely counterintuitive in how the effect works (or in this case, works against) one's other forms of mitigation, stative (CDs, stance) or RNG (dodge, block, parry).

What I suggest then is to simply make status effects (at least those which give weight to any decision to use their attached skills) scale with player stats and buffs.

Think of Flash as doing 'Blind' damage, Break as doing 'Heavy' damage, etc. You have stats; the target has stats; the percent effect then naturally tapers off as the value of that percent (due to the sheer strength of the target in question) increases, leaving the value of that GCD or ability spent mostly consistent. No enemy is ever immune to Flash, but as their stats, and presumably throughput, increase, the percent chance to hit diminished by Flash also decreases, such that a Flash ends up essentially amounting to a RNG shield averaging some given absorption potency over its full uptime. You can mitigate instantly with Shelltron, but you can also use frontloaded mitigation via Flash.

The second adjustment would be to buff-stacking and diminishing returns. If status effects of this sort are to have real, scaling powers, then the diminishing return effect cannot be nearly so strong, and additional casts have to be stackable at roughly nearly-even individual strength. If the first Flash costs a trash mob, of stat level roughly equal to the PLD's, 10% hit chance for 12 seconds, then the next ought to extend the duration and increase the percentile, say to 15% for 18 seconds. The exact maths ideal for this are beyond me for the moment.

In the case of Blind, in particular, though, this gets a little more complex.

At present, as chance to hit decreases, so too does the relative value of mitigation, both stative (CDs, stance) and RNG (Block and Parry chances). If one has already dodged ALL of the damage due to an enemy missing their attack due to Blind, then there's nothing to Block, or Parry, or statively mitigate. The solution would be the same as would make Dodge far more useful to tanks in general: allow for partial hits. Rather than a 15% reduced chance to hit, perhaps the Blind will cost the enemy (effectively) 15% damage. Maybe it reduces its Accuracy stat where Accuracy, rather than a default "+/- 5% Damage" modifier, determines between what and 100% damage the attack can deal. Whatever. The only requirement is that a Blind should retain or even enhance the value of other forms of mitigation.

Ideally, I'd see it as working like this. Overly technical stuff:

To be edited in only if there is interest...

Whatever the case, once you can make Flash no longer inherently **** for anything more than enmity (and even allowing its enmity to scale with FoF, though at cost of facing the %damage reduction on Shield Oath, to be buffed slightly back into place), it ends up a much more consistent AoE option.
Even if you don't see its benefits directly, the healer certainly will.

If you really want to give PLD its own sense of AoE, though... (The two minor changes)

• 1. Cause Intervention to always count for you as a block, proccing Shield Swipe.
• 2a. Remove the cooldown on Shield Swipe.
• 2b. (Optional) Have Shield Swipe deal bonus potency if/when it pacifies, proportionate to duration. This (relatively speaking) reduces its focus damage and boss damage, encouraging more AoE-like cycling.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

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1. It's worked for me some 10 out of 15ish times, even without any verbalized cues. That said, I could be lucky in that I get dps-capable healers the vast majority of the time. (Though it does make those few idlers all the more painful by relative difference and rarity.) ...Sadly, getting a SAM to AoE beyond Kyuten or a Monk to hold PB for large AoE packs is far less common.

2. If you're completely bottomed out of TP, I really don't see how you, the PLD, could still deal additional DPS directly. That was the condition mentioned in the one and only line on this subject, after all. These situations present themselves almost only when the party is painfully undergeared or the DPS aren't AoEing properly (if at all), but the 1728-potency spam of Conv-Req Clemency spam is plenty powerful to allow the healer their AoE spam and yet still manages not to be superfluous in many a dungeon unless used atop major CDs. In Swallow's Compass, as most large pulls deal no more damage than Temple of the Fist, it might see excess, but Hell's Rest can make full use of it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It actually feels particularly "Paladin" to me that once out of TP, your only way to deal AoE DPS is to self-heal while your healer is the one to deal that damage. I like that Paladin shoves in your face every way in which your damage is your party's and vice-versa, that indirect contribution is -- in effect -- no different than direct contribution.

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Respectfully disagree because it hedges on the major factor that:

1) Your healer want's to actually DPS

2) Your healer is aware enough to recognize that you are out of TP and switch to a more offensive output, or notice that you're spamming Clemency and

a) Realize that this enables them to DPS more (in reality it doesn't, PLD could still DPS, because the extra healing is mostly superfluous)

b) Not feel like they're being attacked (we see this notion on the forums a lot, where Healers consider this a slight against them).

Neither of these things are a guarantee therefore they cannot possible be the same as direct contribution where a PLD has other AOE options. Practical experience supports this in that most other players (in DF, the only place that AOE matters) simply play their own way regardless of what strategy you employ.

That's why we see things like DPS who can't AOE, and Healers who won't DPS and so on.

IMO of course.