Pre-pull regen?

As a tank player I have noticed this trend as well. I believe it came about as a result of the big pulls that have become standardized in the SB dungeons and how hard those mobs hit compared to older content. A regen can help the healer keep from feeling so far behind once the pull is stabilized.

That being said, I dont see that a pre-pull regen is ever necessary in dungeon content. Maybe in a raid to fit some dps in a party buff window or something, but single target emnity is much easier to manage. As a ps4 player its a pain in the butt to click off, so if you insist on doing it please accept that you then get to help wrangle together the pull.

Hmm... didn't realize this was such a big issue. I try not to pre-pull regen but I don't always succeed there, usually its when if I cast Medica II or Regen late in a fight, not realizing that the mobs or boss was about to die x_X.

The only other issue I have is when the tank goes super fast and I can't keep up or moves on before I'm ready. Sometimes my sprint is still on cooldown from a boss or I am trying to deal with the loot auction popup. This is particularly true in Expert dungeons, the tank gets too far ahead and they die because I cant get to them in time. They then do smaller pulls which is ok but its not that I cant handle bigger pulls, the tank just ran too far ahead and I couldn't keep up x_x (I think the fastest I've finished an expert dungeon is probably 13 minutes because of everyone wanting to be Sanic and gotta go fast lol).

Recently, I've been using Divine Benison more often as a prepull thing (and staying away from regen) if I have the lilies. It makes mine and the tank's job a lot easier and I don't have to worry too much if they get too far ahead lol.

I always considered rule one of healing do NOT pre regen before a pull. It's not worth disrupting your tank's pull for one tic of regen. On WHM I start my (snail slow) DOT cast and usually by the time it's about 75% through cast time all mobs have red names thus pulled as needed, then my cast goes off. I'll regen after that.

I don't use Medica II much unless everyone else is also taking damage or there happen to be AOEs among the pack I think may hit someone other than the tank. Always remember your tank is fighting you and the DPS for hate on top of keeping mobs clustered so try not to overheal and make things harder than they need to be. We all have an emergency instant heal if it comes down to it.

Not sure why healers would want to regen pre-pull. Pre-pull regen puts you into combat immediately, which means you miss out on the out-of-combat MP ticks while traveling.

Mob spacing can make it impossible for the the tank to keep threat off you 100% of the time, and if he needs to backtrack, he will take more dmg than necessary as the distance between him and the trailing mobs will close.

Direct heals are much better for mid pull healing. You can ensure the heal goes off at an appropriate time and stay out if combat until necessary.

I pre-regen before bosses because why not? 1 action from the tank takes any hate the ticks will take and I can start DPSing earlier.

Pre-regen before a pull of trash mobs however is a huge no no. It doesn't really help much and just makes it harder on the tank to pull all of the mobs to the same spot quickly.

That being said, tanks need to click off their regen that is on them from the previous pull if they pull fast enough that it doesn't wear off in transit.

I was in a run if WoD where the WHM (I was running SCH) was casting Medica II like... way early. Lije they casted it right as we zoned in. And then after every room would cast as we ran to the next area and then cast it again before the pull... It was very weird. And highly unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Not sure why healers would want to regen pre-pull. Pre-pull regen puts you into combat immediately, which means you miss out on the out-of-combat MP ticks while traveling.

Mob spacing can make it impossible for the the tank to keep threat off you 100% of the time, and if he needs to backtrack, he will take more dmg than necessary as the distance between him and the trailing mobs will close.

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Sometimes it happens that the tank has still an reggen on him after a mob group, when he does pull the next enemys and i have rarely encountered that the healer is getting aggro. Imo people are right, healers should try to prevent overheal as much as possible, but holding aggro against an single target reggen, really shouldn't be an huge issue, if the tank does aoe aggro skill on the mobs.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Not at all. I stopped reading because maximizing dps isn't even in the realm of what this thread addresses. Posts like yours, is what veers a thread off topic, and into another healer dps debate. Sorry, not taking that bait.

Basically, what I'm saying is I can't think of any situation where it is optimal for the healer to grab initial hate, because that is exactly what Regen does. Your tank will always have to compensate for this, and work just a little harder, even if just a shoulder shrug to get the hate off of you. Sure, your dps goes up, and the tank's goes down.

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Some raids or boss fights have nice benefits for pre pull reggen. The most notable example at the moment is v4s with the almagast right at the start. Tanks have it so easy at the moment to hold aggro of an single target enemy, especially as war it is an joke. As war you can pull in tank stance with hawk, heal yourself and boom aggro for days (slightly hyperhole ofc), even without using one aggro combo. Besides, if an tank really doesn't want pre pull reggen in an boss fight (not talking about trash mobs here), then i wonder what they say to their other teammates about their opener, because those will quickly generate much more aggro than an simple reggen ever will. Therefore he doesn't lose anything, because he has to generate much more hate anyway in order to not loose aggro in raids/boss fights, if the others, especially dd do their opener.

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When I speak optimal, I'm talking the entire party. Not just my own.

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Pre Pull reggen can save in bossfights the healers an gcd and thats a overall gain compared to tanks doing one more aggro combo, which they don't have to do anyways for the reason i explained. Here is the math for the drk as an quick example:

aggro combo potency = 150+220+300 = 670 (should be 536p in tank stance)
dmg combo = 150+250+300 = 700
difference: 164p

Malefic, stone IV or broil II have more potency than the difference of the aggro vs dmg combo, even if we make the false assumption and believe tanks have to do one more aggro combo to keep threat against pre pull reggen. This means, if an tank is an teamplayer and puts the performance of the team above his own, then he wants healer to do pre pull reggen. At least in boss fights. Dungeons are another matter.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I'm sorry, but how is "this is the optimal way to use this skill in this situation DPS-wise" in anyway out of "the realm of what this thread addresses", when the thread is specifically about what's the best way to use the discussed skill in discussed situation? What Sebazy said is no doubt the optimal way to do it DPS-wise - and for the whole party, not just the healer - and pointing that out is definitely relevant for the discussion and for the OP. It doesn't mean that this is how the skill should be used in DF groups most of the time, and Sebazy didn't claim that either. No one is debating or derailing here except for you.

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Well said and i totally agree with you. Seb seems to be a nice person and this is the second time, i see an unfriendly response to sebazy post. I don't really get it, because those are well written and detailed.

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Originally Posted by era1Ne

Well said and i totally agree with you. Seb seems to be a nice person and this is the second time, i see an unfriendly response to sebazy post. I don't really get it, because those are well written and detailed.

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This isn't exactly limited to Sebas. I mean, try to elaborate anything related to healer DPS that makes sense and you'll see a certain, eh... archetype(?) of healer pop out, barking and growling like some cornered animal*.

*Merely an analogy, don't get your panties twisted, please

I don't do pre mob pull regen in dungeon. But during mid-pull if I see the tank lost 50% hp already just from pulling and they are still grabbing more then I tend to give in to panic and put regen on the tank, me, then sprint up and go asylum, holy, heal/aero, holy, then spam heal and whatever ogcd I have hoping for the best.

I've been tanking more lately, and I really wish people wouldn't do it in DF. Maybe it's not a problem for elite tanks. I'm not one of those. It REALLY messes me up when I'm trying to do fast pulls because if I miss anything it's gone and either it's staying gone until I finish the pull or I have to stop to go get it back, and now everything else is hitting me (necessitating more healing than if I had just kept going because I can outrun stuff for a while).

Think of the poor journeyman tanks. If you've got a lily, do a pre-pull Divine Benison instead.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Not sure why healers would want to regen pre-pull. Pre-pull regen puts you into combat immediately, which means you miss out on the out-of-combat MP ticks while traveling.

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That's a really good point on the out-of-combat MP ticks. I'm usually already dropping Aero III while the tank gathers, so I wouldn't see as much benefit.

And I was almost chunky salsa the other night in an Expert run because I accidentally hit the wrong button and dropped regen on the tank while he was gathering. He was *definitely* not AoEing, lol! So I believe I will stand by my policy of not dropping regen with unfamiliar tanks.

You dont need to pre pull regen considering the combat flow in this game. When the battle start you as healer has all time in the world to cast heal and do whatever you want anyway

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

That's a really good point on the out-of-combat MP ticks. I'm usually already dropping Aero III while the tank gathers, so I wouldn't see as much benefit.

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Unless Aero III is hitting everything, you're likely wasting mp. Ex: if a pull is 10 mobs and you Aero III 5 of them during the pull, then all 10 when the pull is complete, you havent really changed anything. 5 mobs may die a gcd early, but the remaining 5 still need AoE'd. You aren't shortening the duration of the fight and are possibly lengthening the duration of the dungeon if mp issues cause you to miss a holy on that fight or subsequent ones.

I'm sure we've all got horror stories to tell regarding Healers doing barmy pre-pull shenanigans but I'll just relay how I do it on my WHM.

Unless it's a boss-fight, no pre-pull regen - ever. The most it would do is stave off an auto-attack or two at the risk of forcing the tank to have to run around like a nutcase re-gathering any stragglers. It may be fine with PLD-Flash in confined spaces, but if I'm on my Warrior who is restricted to cone-OP or Tomahawk on wide-spread pulls, the last thing I want is a regen thrown on me before I've gathered them all.

Anyway, back to what I do > follow the tank closely during the mega-pull with the intention of QC/Holy once they're rounded up. This gives you ample time to comfortably AeroIII the entire crowd before the inevitable damage. If it's a long journey between the packs, by all means throw regular Aero's on whatever has been picked up (Shield Lobs/Toma/Flash/OPower)- there's really no point casting AIII on a handful and then having to re-apply it a second time later, so don't bother. Now that the tank has everything gathered and picked an area to hold, unleash that QC-Holy. From there, you can either TA/PoM/CS>Holy Spam (you'll have time for 3-4 during the initial stun [or more depending on the tanks mitigation] seeing as the second stun will keep them pinned for a few extra seconds), or you can save that and use the initial stun time to cast any healing-centric safety nets you feel may be needed if you're worried about the particular pack (regen, asylum etc, vs that horrible double-pull before Poisontongue in Skalla where things can get messy until the stone-idol is dead - mostly a melee-group issue).

Be wary when using a pre-emptive Asylum as that will draw aggro much like a regen-tick would once someone stands inside it. If you're doing such things you should always be glued to the tank. That way, any strays will be heading towards them for pickup. The only reason I may use Asylum early is if I'm starting to lose count of how many times the tank moves out of it during the run, be it intentionally (massive AoE markers), or just doesn't notice/care and runs around like a nutter. A pre-emptive one is a big wordless "Hey, see that pretty dome? Try tanking inside it" suggestion. Again, I'm fine with this as I'm literally breathing down the tanks neck and ready to rock that QC/Holy.

Get into the habit of rotating between a Tank-Cure and Enemy-Stone. Someone commented on one of my recent streams when they noticed I was flitting between Focus-Target Cure > TAB > Stone > Focus-Target Cure etc during the 'oh noes' phase of having no Holy stun and the triple-pack is free to hit the tank. There's really no need to be mashing out Cure-Spam as there's only very few cases where a tank will 100%-0% if they've remotely decent gear, and I've seen far too many healers pumping overheal cures into 100% healthy tanks out of fear when they could have lobbed a stone (by which time damage would register that can actually be healed). Once those lillies are stacked, Assize (trash is relatively healthy) or Benison if it's on cool, which gives you more leeway for heals, stones or additional holy.

Lucid at 75-80%. Rinse, repeat.

Boss? Yes, I'll regen and maybe even MedicaII if I know the boss in question has early AoE mechanics (eg. Kelpie), so with the whole party having a healing blanket, I can open with TA/PoM/CS and go ham until the movement mechanics kick in and healing takes center stage (until the next downtime window), but never do this pre-trash pull. Regen is bad enough but I've seen far too many healers lashing out MedicaII on mega-pulls and wondering why they've got mobs punching them in the head.

Slapping regen on me pre-pull is no big deal because of how fast I grab mobs and spam unleash. But that's just me, and this is DF, not every tank is the same. Don't do it~

In raids, I regen the tank as soon as he runs toward the boss. In dungeons, I usually don't know the tank, and I'm a lot more careful with my Regens. I rather throw an instant at him than risk tanking myself; many tanks just aren't good enough, and even if they are good, I feel pre-pull Regen isn't worth the chaos it potentially causes. As soon as the tank finished the pull, sure, Regen is up asap, followed by Holy, Aero II, and all. But before that, no. Too much chaos, too little knowing how the tank will react. Not worth it, I can keep him alive during the pull well enough with other means.

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Originally Posted by winsock

if mp issues cause you to miss a holy on that fight or subsequent ones.

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Can we even get low on mp anymore? I feel a bit spoiled anymore, since it feels like a dream that we ever had mp issues.

The annoying thing about whm is the aggro they create. Both AST stances reduces their aggro universally and with SCH, the fairy is technically causing the regens and only heals when needed instead of over-healing. Also, who cares if the fairy gets hit a couple times during the pull. Pre-shielding with the other two jobs cause no aggro and basically serves the same purpose as pre-pull regen so they might as well just do that instead. It is pretty much just a minor downside of white mage and minor annoyance to some tanks.

Like others said, it is fine with trial or bosses since the main issue is with multiple mobs. With a single enemy, the tank can immedately aggro back with provoke or the global they were going to use anyway.