#RIPRDM

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

As far as the rotation from what I understand the way mp ticks in umbral ice it won\\\\'t even cause the need for an extra tick.

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We would as our ice phase fillers got more abundant by baby sitting the rdm we have to give up a cool down or let something clip every 2 minutes and disturbs blms casting flow.

Upon casting ui 3 we have 12 seconds before fall off
Hard casting 3 skills of which have 2.91 cast times takes 8.7 seconds which leaves 3.3 seconds left and fire 3 must be cast within that time (1.49) but by giving 20% of our mp during the 6-9 seconds of our mp restore we have to wait longer or give up on recasting.

Thunder/foul/blizzard 4 or setting up any OGCDs for 6x f4 mashing.

By waiting longer we lose fast fire, if we have to swift cast fire 3 after having to wait to catch back up we lose 2 seconds on AF because it updates on the GCD instead of after.
This forcibly shortens our rotation due to 1 OGCD being used.

*Stare* The overall party loss of DPS would be greater if the BLM doesn't work a moment to push an OGCD. So, yes, deal with the shorter rotation for that instance and provide better overall party damage.

After a decade of "Refresh Please" There isn't going to be a valid excuse for a BLM to be selfish with their infinite MP pool. That goes for any player that needs MP - especially healers. If you've got the tools, you use them on request. Refusing off flimsy grounds is a good way of getting you kicked out of a static - which is about the only real situation in which MP is going to be a struggle anyways, methinks.

A decade of refresh has nothing to do with a system where mages are self sufficient in ff14 ff14 blm dont owe ff11 refresh bots anything.

Also even if we DID give them our 3k worth of mana (20% of 15480 at 70) theyd bottom out again almost immediately due to their spells costing 800+ in mp.

Mana transfer is on a 150s CD for rdm to cast another 4 spells at best whose potencies per cast dont go past 300 where as blm will lose 3 481 potency attacks and either a high powered dot or a 685 potency.

Its a net loss to help them and even worse if blm has to do it mid astral fire rotation.


An offensive mage class in this game should NOT require outside help to barely function, and should not -expect-
others to fall on their swords to help them function.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

We would as our ice phase fillers got more abundant by baby sitting the rdm we have to give up a cool down or let something clip every 2 minutes and disturbs blms casting flow.

Upon casting ui 3 we have 12 seconds before fall off
Hard casting 3 skills of which have 2.91 cast times takes 8.7 seconds which leaves 3.3 seconds left and fire 3 must be cast within that time (1.49) but by giving 20% of our mp during the 6-9 seconds of our mp restore we have to wait longer or give up on recasting.

Thunder/foul/blizzard 4 or setting up any OGCDs for 6x f4 mashing.

By waiting longer we lose fast fire, if we have to swift cast fire 3 after having to wait to catch back up we lose 2 seconds on AF because it updates on the GCD instead of after.
This forcibly shortens our rotation due to 1 OGCD being used.

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This demonstrates your ignorance of BLM's mp regeneration and cast time in 4.0.

Observations: at level 70 in 4.0

• BLM has 15480 mp.
• BLM regens 62% of total mp under UI3
• B4 costs 1200 mp (<8% of total mp)
• T3 costs 1920 mp (12.4% of total mp)
• Foul costs 240 mp (<2% of total mp)
• Cast times of T3/Foul is 1 gcd.
• Ice cycle starts with at least 13% of total mp for T3.

Ice Cycle 1: T3 > B4 > Mana Shift > Foul > F3

• Cast time:
  • This takes at most 10.25s (2.5+3+0.5+2.5+1.75) out of 12s of UI3 with 0 sps: no risk of losing UI3.
  • This takes at least 9.13s (2.21+2.66+0.5+2.21+1.55) with 1101 sps: enough time for 3 mp ticks (even without latency and reaction time).
• MP regen: Use Mana Shift after the 2nd mp tick
  13% > T3 > 62% (13+62-13) > B4 > 92% (62+62-8) > Mana Shift > 73.6% (92-92*0.2) > Foul > 98% (73.6+62-2) > F3
  This is at least either 98% of total mp (if the mp tick happens before Foul finishes) or 100% of total mp (if the mp tick happens after Foul finishes)

Ice Cycle 2: T3/Foul > Mana Shift > B4 > F3

• Cast time:
  • This takes at most 7.25s (2.5+3+1.75) out of 12s of UI3 with 0 sps: no risk of losing UI3
  • This takes at least 6.92s (2.21+2.66+1.55) with 1101 sps: enough time for 2 mp ticks.
  Since this ice cycle has a chance of getting 3 mp ticks, it could be optimized by using Mana Shift after the 2nd mp tick with penalty if not getting 3 mp ticks.
  
• MP regen: Use Mana Shift after the 1st mp tick
  13% > T3/Foul > 62% (13+62-13) > Mana Shift > 49.6% (62-62*0.2) > B4 > 100% (49.6-8+62) > F3
  This is at least 100% of total mp since the mp tick happens before F3 finishes.

Cooldown If we cast Foul on cooldown, then Foul (30s cd) should naturally align with Mana Shift (150s cd)

Conclusion: If we couple Foul and Mana Shift an ice cycle, we lose 0.5s of dps with no risk of losing UI3 while helping other members.

Recommendation:

• Please use the Ice Cycle 1 when you use Mana Shift to maximize its effect.
• Use Mana Shift after the 2nd mp tick in the Ice Cycle 1 or after the 1st mp tick in the Ice Cycle 2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Also even if we DID give them our 3k worth of mana (20% of 15480 at 70) theyd bottom out again almost immediately due to their spells costing 800+ in mp.

Mana transfer is on a 150s CD for rdm to cast another 4 spells at best whose potencies per cast dont go past 300 where as blm will lose 3 481 potency attacks and either a high powered dot or a 685 potency.

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This demonstrates your ignorance of RDM's skill mp cost.

Observations:

• Jolt 2/Impact/Verfire/Verstone costs 360 mp
• Verthunder/Veraero costs 600 mp
• Mana Shift transfers 2848.32 mp (Ice Cycle 1: 15480*0.92*0.2) or 1919.52 mp (Ice Cycle 2: 15480*0.92*0.2)
• F4 potency is 260 in 4.0
• F4 pps is 184.7 (260*1.8*1.05/2.66) with AF3, Enochian, and 1101 sps

Analysis:

• The majority of RDM's single-target rotation consists of casting the 2-spell sequence:
  Jolt 2/Impact/Verfire/Verstone > Verthunder/Veraero.
• Mana Shift allows RDM to casts 2 or 3 2-spell sequences, depending on BLM's ice cycles: at least 1080 potency (2*(240+300)) or 1620 potency (3*(240+300)).
• BLM at most loses 92.7 potency (0.5s of dps) by using Mana Shift, unrealistically assuming BLM rotation consists of only F4 with 1101 sps.

Conclusion: Therefore, BLM loses at most 92.7 potency while allowing RDM to do at least 1080/1620 potency.

Improbable. Our cast times in SB in af3 are 2.91 for most spells including foul.

B3 (12s of ui 3) -tick of 62% (11.5-9s on late tick) = 9597 mp - T3-cast of 2.91 (ui time left 9.09- 6.09 ) cost of 1920 mp = 7677 (mp trans .5s) 20% of 7677 is 1535 mp to rdm. Remaining mp = 6142 + 62% = mp full.

Remaining time (9.04-6.04 at best 0 human error or delay) B4 cast of 2.91 and 1200 mp leaves 6.13s - 3.13s left to cast foul and fast fire 3. If you cast foul youll be 2.91 behind the timer and lose enochian and ui3 resulting in a hard casted F3 or swift casted f3 and lose 2s on af3

So at best the only way to give rdm the full 3k mp is to wait for 2 ticks THEN use it but even thats not guaranteed we'll meet it on tick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Improbable. Our cast times in SB in af3 are 2.91 for most spells including foul.

B3 (12s of ui 3) -tick of 62% (11.5-9s on late tick) = 9597 mp - T3-cast of 2.91 (ui time left 9.09- 6.09 ) cost of 1920 mp = 7677 (mp trans .5s) 20% of 7677 is 1535 mp to rdm. Remaining mp = 6142 + 62% = mp full.

Remaining time (9.04-6.04 at best 0 human error or delay) B4 cast of 2.91 and 1200 mp leaves 6.13s - 3.13s left to cast foul and fast fire 3. If you cast foul youll be 2.91 behind the timer and lose enochian and ui3 resulting in a hard casted F3 or swift casted f3 and lose 2s on af3

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Please read what I wrote (I have updated it with 2 different ice cycles) and update your information on cast time since.

T3 and Foul in 4.0 have a cast time of 1 gcd (at most 2.5s with 0 sps). Here is the evidence:
- EN translation for T3
- EN translation for Foul
- Famitsu information

You're right that Mana Shift does not transfer 20% of total mp, but 20% of current mp. I will adjust my post accordingly.

I went back to the jp page to post the tool tips from yoshis stream but theyre gone.

But looking at your video they are indeed 2.4s casts instead of 2.91, so by all accounts youre correct and my info was out dated.
So blm doesnt lose 1094 we only lose 97.

That makes me feel a little better actually, i apologise for my ignorance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

I went back to the jp page to post the tool tips from yoshis stream but theyre gone.

But looking at your video they are indeed 2.4s casts instead of 2.91, so by all accounts youre correct and my info was out dated.
So blm doesnt lose 1094 we only lose 97.

That makes me feel a little better actually, i apologise for my ignorance.

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Sorry for the harsh comment. You help me realize that Mana Shift doesn't transfer 20% of total mp, but 20% of current mp. So I adjusted the position of Mana Shift within the two ice cycles in my post to maximize the transferred amount.

Cycles of failures into success i guess.

And its fine im.sure by my wording i may have come off aggressive, not intended. Its 7am im going to bed.

Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

An offensive mage class in this game should NOT require outside help to barely function, and should not -expect-
others to fall on their swords to help them function.

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We agree on that point but this isn't the argument. The argument is the willingness to use a skill when the situation calls for it and your insistence that a BLM will make better use of the MP and OGCD.

You don't owe FFXI's refresh bots anything, you do owe your teammates your co-operation if you wish to remain that. Therefore, if the situation calls for you to mana shift, you manashift. It's that simple. The lack of understanding of raid DPS vs player DPS and the capacity of skills like manashift to save a raid or push. Again, if I had to deal with being a Refresh bot for 10 years, you can handle using Manashift when the situation calls for it. If you need a summary you can translate my previous comment to: "Your complaints make me feel old, and you seem selfish."

Assuming existing mana reserves, 3k MP can potentially push a RDM over the 80/80 Mana threshold which is 970 potency an about 4.5 seconds without any MP cost. If a third of that 3k MP remains at the end, that potency jump spikes to 1520 - not including OGCDs from RDM at the time. Ignoring that potential is losing far more than a powered dot, or a 685 potency nuke. I'm not saying spam Mana Shift on Cooldown, but pay attention to when it can be very useful.

You will recover from one shortened rotation from your ideal. You will likely clip your rotation and/or your mana regeneration during the course of a elongated fight anyways due to forced fight downtime. Blm has the highest MP sustain of any class in the game. You have a tool to make use of that as a utility. Instead of resisting the idea of its use, learn how to use it ideally in your group.

Speculatively, manashift looks like a very good clutch/downtime skill. On the caster DPS side, RDM stems to benefit the most from it due to having the lowest MP recovery. I'd expect it to go to a MP starved healer first if that's occurring. However outright dismissing the skill's usage due to an obsession with optimized personal DPS is a red flag when looking for teammates.

That said, this situation will likely be pretty rare in the long run, as RDM benefits a more Physical Damage leaning group than most mages do. I see it paired with a DRG and a MCH or BRD, the latter two of course will have no qualms assisting with MP recovery. To round out the for it could be SAM or MNK depending on the AoE need. I'm actually curious to see if a RDM's Enchanted Sword skills will proc Chakras for MNK during Brotherhood. If so, that's a potential bonus.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

We agree on that point but this isn't the argument. The argument is the willingness to use a skill when the situation calls for it and your insistence that a BLM will make better use of the MP and OGCD.

You don't owe FFXI's refresh bots anything, you do owe your teammates your co-operation if you wish to remain that. Therefore, if the situation calls for you to mana shift, you manashift. It's that simple. The lack of understanding of raid DPS vs player DPS and the capacity of skills like manashift to save a raid or push..

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And if helping another player results in a net loss you hurt your raid more by helping them.

keep in mind this whole argument was under the assumption of the live steams cast times, not the updated ones, blm wouldve had to lose thunder (390 pot) foul (685 pot) and 1 fire 4 (481) i was under the assumption that blm would lose 1556+ potency if we were forced to help them which would have been damaging to a degree for what appears to be a 97 bonus to rdm.

But again like i said a post back, my data is old an incorrect, we have enough time to get our full damage + give rdm 3k worth then im all for it, if at any time rdm and the healer needs help ill choose the healer, if at any time helping rdm would become a net loss (Transferring during AF3/Bad sever ticks/ 30% weakeness) i will not help rdm.

that was what i was going off of and I was wrong which i admitted to.