Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Medeah

The icons on the top bar are pvp skills the pink one is mana draw and the blue one is a blm skill called night wing.

---

Welp, that's my PVP noobishness showing through. Edited, thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabzy

Reddit isn't always the best source of information, but somebody supposedly translated all the tooltips they showed, and "Lucid Dream" was identical to Shroud of Saints: Half enmity and 80 potency MP regen.

---

Once again assuming this information is correct, this new "lucid dream" ability would be 21 sec (source reddit) which would be a step up from the old shroud of saints. It would at least partially answer the mana recovery problems whm have been encountering.

Though, I agree with you, while it makes it kinda obvious ast will loose luminiferous aether (and hence loose one tick of regen mana), I wonder how it is going to work for sch with aetherflow.

I am now so scared that SCH will be nerfed to the ground LMAO.

YOSHI P PLS DON'T TAKE MY AETHERFLOW AWAY I'VE BEEN A GOOD BOY.


In all seriousness I could see Aetherflow becoming a 10% MP regain, since both SMN and SCH would (I'm assuming) retain access to Energy Drain, and WHM has Assize where AST can extend Lucid Dream with Celestial Opposition and pop Ewer on themselves.

I don't think they'd flat out remove the MP regain on Aetherflow unless they reduced the MP cost for the barrier type spells SCH has. Succor and Adlo cost massive amounts of MP, so losing the 20% MP every minute and relying only on MP regeneration would be a bit of a kick in the nuts. Not to mention the non-constant fairy healing that the tether ability and gauge seem to suggest, which would in turn require more barriers or casting.

Hmm.... Piety would become a much more important stat now if this is the case. Though this could also be alleviated by a BLM using Manashift during Umbral Ice for any healer.

All of this is very interesting!! I can't wait to see more about the new skills and all the new party support synergy we're seeing.

So going off what we've seen so far...

WHM is unwanted in most serious content right now because of our complete lack of utility compared to the other two healers.

...so SE's answer to that is to apparently remove Stoneskin, our only form of mitigation, and to give us more healing spells to keep us as a "pure healer."

Because that's what raiders screech about from here to next week. Pure, no-holds-barred, unadulterated healing with absolutely nothing else to offer.

Meanwhile, the other two healers get our only redeeming feature in the form of cross-role Divine Seal, SCH continues to be relevant and AST gains even more cards.

But don't worry, we still have Repose.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/01a5d726...4kvzo1_500.gif

Edit: lmao we don't even have pure healing anymore everything is gated behind RNG SE has nerfed us into oblivion

My usual response to that is 'who cares about raiding?'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fujiwuji

My usual response to that is 'who cares about raiding?'

---

A lot of players who look forward to challenging content?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fernosaur

I am now so scared that SCH will be nerfed to the ground LMAO.

YOSHI P PLS DON'T TAKE MY AETHERFLOW AWAY I'VE BEEN A GOOD BOY.

---

To be fair, if they adjust the cost of Adlo/Succor a little, we might be fine with that and mana recovery from Energy Drains. As it stands, there's no real reason for it to cost so high when AST can do the same better for less. We have hardly any info yet, but if that really is a better Shroud, there is no way SCH will keep its Aetherflow mana recovery. That would be way too OP.

On topic, I'm also going to reserve judgement on WHM. I feel like their moves will have a lot of additional effects, and until we know about those it's near impossible to speculate where it will end up. I still have a little faith that they're not going to kill one of the most iconic jobs for an entire expansion. I will, however, say that their new animations look extremely uninspired. It was certainly the most bland showcase of all the jobs.

I know we've all seen new, flashy things and we want to speculate, but there really is hardly any info to suggest where WHM is going to end up. SCH and AST certainly looked more interesting, but that doesn't equate to them being more powerful.

For example, that faerie tether looked very interesting, but it could also be an indirect nerf. No more auto-embrace casts, and you have to tether to someone for the fairy to actually heal them. Whether that's the case or not, we don't know yet, but the point is that we really don't have enough info to speculate. For all we know, those WHM AoE instant casts could be heals tied with buffs, or just straight up buffs. I don't think we can look at the cross role system and assume that because WHM has given up tools that it means they are losers in this system change. Another example, all healers are getting Lucid Dream (a better Shroud according to a Reddit translation), which is a buff to WHM mana regen, but could be a nerf to SCH again if they lose Aetherflow mana regen.

This sure is a lot of doomsaying for things we have minimal details on.

I've gained the impression that those sorts of players are concerned about challenging content to the exclusion of all else, including actually enjoying themselves playing a video game. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but for myself, I find the normal content enough of a challenge as it is. I find it hard to believe the sky is falling simply because my favored WHM doesn't have the new, shiny toys of AST and SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fujiwuji

I've gained the impression that those sorts of players are concerned about challenging content to the exclusion of all else, including actually enjoying themselves playing a video game. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but for myself, I find the normal content enough of a challenge as it is. I find it hard to believe the sky is falling simply because my favored WHM doesn't have the new, shiny toys of AST and SCH.

---

All right. I'll bite. So tell me. Why would you take a WHM/SCH over SCH/AST or a WHM/AST over SCH/AST? SCH/AST can heal perfectly fine because they have to be able to be in order to perform their main role- healing. Besides that, both have utility AST has its card buffs including everyone's favorite Unbalance, and SCH has shields, fairy buffs, and all that (I actually forgot all that SCH has because I never really liked the job so I don't play it >,<; )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fujiwuji

I've gained the impression that those sorts of players are concerned about challenging content to the exclusion of all else, including actually enjoying themselves playing a video game. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but for myself, I find the normal content enough of a challenge as it is. I find it hard to believe the sky is falling simply because my favored WHM doesn't have the new, shiny toys of AST and SCH.

---

Well, sorry to break it to you, but... class balancing doesn't really matter in, say, Gubal (HM) because literally every class/team composition can clear that, so of course we are mostly concerned about high-end content where something like that actually matters. Yet, many people, like me for example, love their class and want it to stay relevant in this kind of content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Snip

---

And why would you assume WHM is irrelevant when you have no solid info to back it up? Have you got early access to the tooltips or something? :'D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabzy

And why would you assume WHM is irrelevant when you have no solid info to back it up? Have you got early access to the tooltips or something? :'D

---

I was around when the game went from 2.0 to 3.0.

But Yoshi P said himself on the live stream: "WHM hasn't really changed at all. We wanted to keep it as a pure healer." That pretty much tells you all you need to know and he said the same thing regarding AST and SCH (minus the pure healer bit)

Wait... I didn't see any mention in the live letter of stoneskin being removed...

In fact... since I didnt see Stoneskin on the shared role action list, it seems like Stoneskin and Stoneskin II will be exclusive to WHM in 4.0

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabzy

And why would you assume WHM is irrelevant when you have no solid info to back it up? Have you got early access to the tooltips or something? :'D

---

Because unless they make some radical change to the performance of whm there's no indication they're getting the one thing they need to fill a spot in a raid over a ast or sch. FF14 is still decently steeped in FF tradition and nothing indicates heals are suddenly going to do party damage buffs. Without that whm has no answer to cards or fey wind. Without an answer to those skills there's little reason to pick a whm or a sch or ast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yorumi

Because unless they make some radical change to the performance of whm there's no indication they're getting the one thing they need to fill a spot in a raid over a ast or sch. FF14 is still decently steeped in FF tradition and nothing indicates heals are suddenly going to do party damage buffs. Without that whm has no answer to cards or fey wind. Without an answer to those skills there's little reason to pick a whm or a sch or ast.

---

And they already said there are NO major changes to WHM, so...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I was around when the game went from 2.0 to 3.0.

But Yoshi P said himself on the live stream: "WHM hasn't really changed at all. We wanted to keep it as a pure healer." That pretty much tells you all you need to know and he said the same thing regarding AST and SCH (minus the pure healer bit)

---

Except you know nothing of the changes they will make to the existing actions of the other healers. So again, there's no reason for anyone to complain already. I was also there at the start of 3.0. AST still had the utility, yet it was irrelevant until around 3.3 - 3.4. So until we can see solid info on the entire kit of the three healers, you can't assume WHM will be irrelevant.

WHM will be balanced around the healers, not just itself and expecting it to be buffed to God tier. So you need to look outside the box and wait until we get info on ALL three healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

In fact... since I didnt see Stoneskin on the shared role action list, it seems like Stoneskin and Stoneskin II will be exclusive to WHM in 4.0

---

We also didn't see Stoneskin/II on the WHM hotbar when it was shown. So there is some speculation that they may have removed it completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabzy

Except you know nothing of the changes they will make to the existing actions of the other healers. So again, there's no reason for anyone to complain already. I was also there at the start of 3.0. AST still had the utility, yet it was irrelevant until around 3.3 - 3.4. So until we can see solid info on the entire kit of the three healers, you can't assume WHM will be irrelevant.

WHM will be balanced around the healers, not just itself and expecting it to be buffed to God tier. So you need to look outside the box and wait until we get info on ALL three healers.

---

Quote:

---

- Yoshi said something like "We want WHM to be more of a pure healer"

---

That alone is reason enough to be very, very concerned. If that's not enough:

Quote:

---

- Also said something about no major overhauls to the class like some of the others had.

---

Or look at this for everything.

Unless they take away a lot of the support the others can give, which I'm 100% sure they won't do, it looks pretty bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Wait... I didn't see any mention in the live letter of stoneskin being removed...

In fact... since I didnt see Stoneskin on the shared role action list, it seems like Stoneskin and Stoneskin II will be exclusive to WHM in 4.0

---

Well we kinda need to keep those since SCH and AST both have shield equivalents of their own. Question will be-- will they give us the old Graniteskin trait back... probably not T_T;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Well we kinda need to keep those since SCH and AST both have shield equivalents of their own. Question will be-- will they give us the old Graniteskin trait back... probably not T_T;

---

We apparently get a shield from the job action bar (the flower thingy), but how often that one can be used is still open. Not often, would be my guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Snip

---

It's not looking great for WHM, I do agree with that, but there was a time when WHM was able to surpass the utility that ASTs brought with its raw power. And there is no info out there to prove that the same cannot happen again. I'm pretty sure the devs acknowledged that AST in its current state is over-buffed, but it was done to get more people playing the job. So I'm pretty sure some utility from the other healers will be tuned down (balance especially) to negate a job being completely singled out.

Please do remember that the WHM struggle only really began after 3.3/3.4. No one complained about the lack of utility until they kept on giving ASTs buff after buff.

Edit: Fernosaur sums it up pretty nicely here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basketofseals

This sure is a lot of doomsaying for things we have minimal details on.

---

Again, Yoshi P said: 1) The role hasn't changed much. 2) They want it to be a Pure Healer. 3) It hasn't received as much reworking as the other jobs. If nothing is changing... that means everything is staying the same and that's not what a lot of people feel WHM needed. Unless SCH and AST are nerfed to the ground which is probably not happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabzy

It's not looking great for WHM, I do agree with that, but there was a time when WHM was able to surpass the utility that ASTs brought with its raw power. And there is no info out there to prove that the same cannot happen again. I'm pretty sure the devs acknowledged that AST in its current state is over-buffed, but it was done to get more people playing the job. So I'm pretty sure some utility from the other healers will be tuned down (balance especially) to negate a job being completely singled out.

Please do remember that the WHM struggle only really began after 3.3/3.4. No one complained about the lack of utility until they kept on giving ASTs buff after buff.

---

It won't happen again because Square wants all healers to be able to clear all content. That's why AST got overbuffed like that in the first place. That, in my eyes, also somewhat precludes WHM being able to overcome their lack of providing anything beside healing and dps, two things every other healer can do just as well or even better, and actually being considered for raid slots. Because if there's nothing there on WHM's end, it doesn't really matter if the utility of other classes is toned down, WHM simply won't be able to catch up with their complete lack of it. Also, since WHM looses the most skills to the new role skill system, they are also the most shafted in their choices there, since the skills the others had to take up will still be taken up, while WHM will struggle to get all the essential old skills, and will have no place for the new ones. As I see it know, I, for example, will have a hard time even fitting the new Cleric's stance in there, which will hamper my ability to dps, which, in turn, will push me down even further...

A SCH will likely still take up Protect (formerly WHM ability) and Swiftcast; then likely E4E (the only skill they lost from their original kit, though it simply replaces Stoneskin or Aero...) and Esuna, and the last slot I currently can't think of, probably the MP reg depending on what they do with Aetherflow. Everything else will likely be not as important, though they could swap out E4E or Esuna depending on their partner, maybe.
WHM, to keep their old function alone, will have to take up Protect, Swiftcast, Esuna, Cleric's Stance and Lucid Dream... simply to get the skills back that they lost, except for Swift which is so essential that it could well be a WHM native skill (or of any healer, for that matter). So, with this comparison alone, SCH needs to choose two skills from that list to function as they did before without cross class taken in, while WHM needs to choose... 5. GREAT choice, really. Oh, wait, I completely forgot they would also need Divine Seal back. That would make 6 abilities, meaning we loose out no matter what we do. GG.
And AST? What does AST have to choose to function as before? Ony Lucid Dream and Esuna, maybe Seal depending on if they chance their own heal increase, and that's it, the rest can be chosen more or less freely, just like SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

Everything else will likely be not as important, though they could swap out E4E or Esuna depending on their partner, maybe.

---

Depending on the encounter, sch already has esuna. Fey caress. Long cooldown yes, but if there's not a lot of stuff to get rid of they could really even consider dropping esuna without actually losing anything.

We also do not yet know all of the new abilities that are coming? ...
I think you are overthinking it until Stormblood arrives

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Again, Yoshi P said: 1) The role hasn't changed much. 3) It hasn't received as much reworking as the other jobs.

---

They said that about Astrologian and Scholar too...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunaxia

WHM is unwanted in most serious content right now because of our complete lack of utility compared to the other two healers.

---

Just in theory.

When looking into fflogs creator savage clears (I only looked into the old ones, not the diadem and echo resets), the amount of whitemages is still between AST (the lowest one) and SCH (the highest one).

So just by looking into statistics, there was no reason for SE to change much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KarstenS

Just in theory.

When looking into fflogs creator savage clears (I only looked into the old ones, not the diadem and echo resets), the amount of whitemages is still between AST (the lowest one) and SCH (the highest one).

So just by looking into statistics, there was no reason for SE to change much.

---

hm i dont see any whm in these groups..

I wouldn't panic just yet, it'll depend as much on the raid content as the job itself as to how meta it becomes at the top end.

Much of Gordias as well as decent chunks of Midas suited a WHMs abilities rather nicely, I think it would have stood up well even vs AST in it's current form. Got my fingers crossed <3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

All right. I'll bite. So tell me. Why would you take a WHM/SCH over SCH/AST or a WHM/AST over SCH/AST? SCH/AST can heal perfectly fine because they have to be able to be in order to perform their main role- healing. Besides that, both have utility AST has its card buffs including everyone's favorite Unbalance, and SCH has shields, fairy buffs, and all that (I actually forgot all that SCH has because I never really liked the job so I don't play it >,<; )

---

In more casual content it just doesn't matter. It's plenty viable, it does solid personal DPS, what's the issue?

It's issues are really only in progression content right at the pointy end. Outside of that it's perfectly fine.

As a WHM main I echo the concerns in this thread, but I think we need to wait until the media embargo is lifted later this week and we get reports from people who have actually played the adjusted healers. If the flower-thingy is a speed buff as people are suggesting, it might mean WMH becomes even better at dps between heals - that could be our 'utility'.

Still holding final judgement until we get more detail, but yeah it looks like it's time to start learning SCH / AST.

Also, is it just me, or is there essentially no real choice in cross role abilities for healers (and WHM in particular), what with having to 'take back' basic utilities like Protect, Esuna, Cleric Stance (because unless something has drastically changed the meta is still going to be DPS, DPS, and more DPS), Swift Cast, and Shroud of Saints?

PS. And Stone IV, really? Is that really the best they could come up with... /sigh

PPS. And if Cleric Stance is now no longer required for Healer DPS, does that mean Healers are now offically expected to contribute to DPS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acidblood

Still holding final judgement until we get more detail, but yeah it looks like it's time to start learning SCH / AST.

Also, is it just me, or is there essentially no real choice in cross role abilities for healers (and WHM in particular), what with having to 'take back' basic utilities like Protect, Esuna, Cleric Stance (because unless something has drastically changed the meta is still going to be DPS, DPS, and more DPS), Swift Cast, and Shroud of Saints?

PS. And Stone IV, really? Is that really the best they could come up with... /sigh

---

That's the problem, unless something drastic has happened with MP refresh for all healers, we're instantly forced to take Shroud back and fall further behind on MP management compared to the other 2. Unless the Lilly's have a MP utility tied to them too. But I have to agree, it just feels like we're forced to take back abilities we lost while everyone else has something to gain.

The Live Letter really turned everything upside down, hopefully once the info starts flowing we get our answers and hopefully things are not as bad as it seems.... (hopefully)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acidblood

Still holding final judgement until we get more detail, but yeah it looks like it's time to start learning SCH / AST.

Also, is it just me, or is there essentially no real choice in cross role abilities for healers (and WHM in particular), what with having to 'take back' basic utilities like Protect, Esuna, Cleric Stance (because unless something has drastically changed the meta is still going to be DPS, DPS, and more DPS), Swift Cast, and Shroud of Saints?

PS. And Stone IV, really? Is that really the best they could come up with... /sigh

PPS. And if Cleric Stance is now no longer required for Healer DPS, does that mean Healers are now offically expected to contribute to DPS?

---

That's one of the main reasons I'm annoyed about these changes. We are going to need to take Protect, Esuna, Shroud of Saints and Divine Seal. That's four slots already we need just to do our job again. We can debate that Swiftcast is really needed but if we are getting speed buff then we might avoid this. And due to the DPS first nature of the game Cleric Stance will be needed and with that all five slots are taken. The rest of the stuff we are unlikely to see if we wanna be taken seriously in content :/

You won't always need Esuna.

Which FF game was Whm not a pure healer? please tell me I want to know.

You don't get to be a pure healer and have utility, that's not how balance works.

You get crappy healing and lots of utility or you get good healing and crappy utility, pick one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adventica6

You don't get to be a pure healer and have utility, that's not how balance works.

You get crappy healing and lots of utility or you get good healing and crappy utility, pick one.

---

......and this is why people are complaining, as this seems to be the Devs views. And it's completely wrong for their own game - unless 4.0 has sweeping changes to damage received.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adventica6

You don't get to be a pure healer and have utility, that's not how balance works.

You get crappy healing and lots of utility or you get good healing and crappy utility, pick one.

---

AST Benefic 1 & 2 heals for the same amount as WHM Cure 1 & 2