Anyone disappointed with the new Red Mage asthetics?

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Originally Posted by Averax

They've already said that RDMs will be purely dps. Hybrid healer/dps jobs don't work in the FFXIV formula. They've played on the descriptive words the red mage in order for it to comply with the game.

Red mages use black and white magic in battle -> Red mages use a fusion of black and white magic in battle, called red magic.

The closest i can imagine is that they'll cross class with CNJ and have access to cleric stance and cure. They'd be able to use cleric stance backwards and be able to cure spam in emergencies.

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White Magic isn't explicitly healing though. We may very well see abilities that can take some edge of Healers responsibilities. In PUGs a SMN with their Raise and BRD with their Esuna are very handy and helpful. May even see buff functions much like BRD and hopefully constructed in a way that doesn't feel like a detriment at times.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Now, you could say "well, that might still happen since the video didn't show us all the job's skills", at which point I would ask, "then why the hell didn't they focus on that?".
I wouldn't expect a carbon copy of the console FF version of RDM, but I would use that as a foundation and adjust the job to work in an MMO. This is why I've pointed to how hybrids work in other recent MMOs and said "look at how these guys are doing it and learn from them" since beta. I don't think this would irk me as much if the fast positioning thing was not such a blatantly contrived gimmick. I can't even, in good conscience, call it a valid gameplay mechanic. It'd be like if I designed a job with gameplay that revolved around pressing the space bar.

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I, too, think it was silly to make RDM a ranged caster. It should have been a front-line job with melee and auto-attacking mixed in with spellcasting. This, I think, would have best encapsulated RDM as a "hybrid fighter-mage" while still allowing it to fit comfortably into the Trinity as a DPS. Perhaps SE was worried about a caster having to constantly interrupt spells by moving to avoid front-line mechanics - but the answer to that issue is stupidly simple: Make RDM spells instant cast, essentially weaponskills that just happen to be magical.

I do think that SE is highly concerned about the categories that the jobs fall into, due to existing mechanics in the game. Dancer, for instance - I've heard many players express interest in Dancer as a front-line Healing job. It's something I'd like to see, myself. However, there are mechanics in the game that target healers, and assume that they have the freedom to stand at range. How would Alex 4's Nisi work with two front-line DNC in the party, for example? DNC as Healer may well still be possible, but I find it highly unlikely that it will be front-line.

SE may have felt that they ran into a similar conundrum with RDM. A caster at close range? Impossible! We'll make them ranged just like other casters, and toss in a few melee lunges so the sword doesn't look silly. Frankly, I feel that solution lacks imagination. If a caster at close range is out of the question, just categorize RDM as a melee, not a caster, but a melee with spell-like abilities.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

SE may have felt that they ran into a similar conundrum with RDM. A caster at close range? Impossible! We'll make them ranged just like other casters, and toss in a few melee lunges so the sword doesn't look silly. Frankly, I feel that solution lacks imagination. If a caster at close range is out of the question, just categorize RDM as a melee, not a caster, but a melee with spell-like abilities.

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The idea that RDM needs to be a melee just because they could equip swords and had an attack command lacks imagination.

It's important that you recognize that there's a difference between an idea you don't like and a bad idea. Also, Dancer is not a healer.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Perhaps SE was worried about a caster having to constantly interrupt spells by moving to avoid front-line mechanics - but the answer to that issue is stupidly simple: Make RDM spells instant cast, essentially weaponskills that just happen to be magical.

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Agreed. It's surprising that they'd be so bent on making the job a wannabe BLM (as put by another poster) while ignoring the most obvious route.

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I do think that SE is highly concerned about the categories that the jobs fall into, due to existing mechanics in the game.

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While this would not be surprising, adjusting jobs to fit specific roles is not that difficult in itself. For example, the Magus job could be adjusted to work as a DPS caster whose spells have lingering effects that react to each other. Green Mage can become a healer focused on manipulating plants and regeneration effects. Chemist could also be a healer if we make them a combination of alchemical solutions and some gunplay. Geomancer could be made into a caster DPS or a healer. Same thing with Mystic/Ying Yang Mage. Each of the aforementioned jobs have elements that can give the developers enough breathing room to take them in a desired direction.

Unlike them, however, Red Mage doesn't have many avenues without really messing with the concept. FFXI proved this by making the job a debuffer and refresh bot, despite their initial attempts with stuff like Enspells and Phalanx (both of which actually play to the hybrid nature of RDM). If you push the job into healing, you end up making their heals more powerful than they should be while snuffing the attack magic and melee. If you push them into nuking, you basically make them BLM -1 while snuffing the healing and the sword. Both back-line alternatives don't do the job justice. And contrived gimmicks (read: fast positioning) do not make up for this.

This is why I've argued that the job is better served in the front lines, since a) the sword is put to use as a core aspect of gameplay, b) you can build mechanics to fit the magic into the gameplay, and c) you can still have the option to use attack/cure magic from range but with limitations to maintain balance. It's the only option that doesn't entirely snuff or severely weaken the aspects of the job. You'd still have to focus the job into a role (DPS) but would be able to make it feel like the three aspects of the job come together.

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SE may have felt that they ran into a similar conundrum with RDM. A caster at close range? Impossible! We'll make them ranged just like other casters, and toss in a few melee lunges so the sword doesn't look silly. Frankly, I feel that solution lacks imagination. If a caster at close range is out of the question, just categorize RDM as a melee, not a caster, but a melee with spell-like abilities.

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I largely agree, and will add that it looks like they tried too hard to innovate for its own sake instead of looking at what works and build from there. Which is strange because that's what they did when developing ARR.

Of course, more information could either confirm our fears or disprove them, but we're stuck with what little we know of the job until SE opens their mouth again about this. Again, to anyone going to the fanfest next month, please ask the developers about this.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

The idea that RDM needs to be a melee just because they could equip swords and had an attack command lacks imagination.

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Again, what's the point of giving the job a sword if you're not going to use it, much less make it a key part of gameplay instead of a tacked on element? Might as well remove the sword, strip the job of its hat, rename it to Sage and leave the rest of the gameplay alone. You'd see next to no difference.

I hope every weaponskills & ogcd required casting,positioning at close-ranged.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Again, what's the point of giving the job a sword if you're not going to use it, much less make it a key part of gameplay instead of a tacked on element? Might as well remove the sword, strip the job of its hat, rename it to Sage and leave the rest of the gameplay alone. You'd see next to no difference.

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This is why I don't spend a lot of energy 'creating' my own job ideas. When you spend too much time on things like that, you start to think and eventually believe your way is the only way.

You know Red Mage uses the sword, you're just not satisfied with how much they use it, specifically because you want it to be a job primarily situated in close quarters, and the fact that SE did not do things your way upsets you. The appropriate course of action, of course, is to complain that they did it wrong!

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Originally Posted by GMERC

This is why I don't spend a lot of energy 'creating' my own job ideas. When you spend too much time on things like that, you start to think and eventually believe your way is the only way.

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Let me stop you right there. Firstly, it's not "my way". The bulk of my suggestions have been based on how hybrids have been treated in the last several years, taking MMO combat and general live action games into account. It isn't something I just happened to make up.

Also, I'm not the only one who has asked for this sort of thing. We've had a string of people who've made suggestions along the lines of front-line combat for RDM since the beta for ARR. I just happen to run my mouth more than the others.

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You know Red Mage uses the sword, you're just not satisfied with how much they use it, specifically because you want it to be a job primarily situated in close quarters, and the fact that SE did not do things your way upsets you.

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Again, the way the sword is presented looks like they grudgingly added it. An afterthought instead of something more core to the job, despite melee being a part of the RDM concept. They could easily build a ranged job around chainspell, not added the positioning gimmick and it would still be nearly the same. Again, at that point you might as well call it Sage and not Red Mage.

Even beyond what I feel about the use of the sword, the positioning gimmick is contrived. To quote Ben Croshaw, "pulled out of the hairiest and sweatiest ass", because you're not moving due to mechanics or to avoid attacks, but because your rotation calls for it. At least MNK, DRG and NIN have a somewhat believable need for positional attacks, but what we've been presented bears little logic in the idea behind how it plays. More info from the devs would disprove or confirm this, but I can only work with what we've been given so far.

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The appropriate course of action, of course, is to complain that they did it wrong!

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I like to think I'm allowed to disagree with SE's developers where applicable. I've disagreed with them on where they took SMN with Heavensward, as I did with WM and what that did to BRD, and with what I consider a waste of a good mechanic by giving BLM Enochian, among several other things. This is just another item on that list, even if do I care about RDM more than the aforementioned jobs.

Now, since you avoided the question the first time, I'll ask again: why not just remove the sword, strip the job of the hat, call it Sage and be done with it? If you don't care for the sword that's been in that job's hand since the beginning of the Final Fantasy series, I'm sure you have an actual argument you can present to back up your stance on this.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

IMO that's a very bad idea, MMOs are about optimization and classes that are not good at a specific role (tank/dps/heal) ended with no place at groups or devs give something to that class that become mandatory. Most MMO's I played that at some point toyed with the idea of support classes ended reworking them.

Anyway, they can keep the indentity of the class:

- A self heal using white magic.
- Some DPS skills are melee and some use black magic spells.

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You mean theme parks. What I described is exactly what RDM was in FFXI. We had access to basic black and white magic and melee skills on top of that. Very versatile class, great to solo something mundane like farming materials or something. Ofc, there were many class combos that were just great for a lot of different things. But don't get me wrong. I get your point and I can't disagree with it.

There are ways they can keep the identity of the class without committing to a truly multi-use class. For instance, RDM could have support skills such as shell, or party-wide buffs such as those BRD has. White magic is not exclusively tied to healing, but rather support.

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Originally Posted by Averax

They've already said that RDMs will be purely dps. Hybrid healer/dps jobs don't work in the FFXIV formula. They've played on the descriptive words the red mage in order for it to comply with the game.

Red mages use black and white magic in battle -> Red mages use a fusion of black and white magic in battle, called red magic.

The closest i can imagine is that they'll cross class with CNJ and have access to cleric stance and cure. They'd be able to use cleric stance backwards and be able to cure spam in emergencies.

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Hybrid healers and DPS DO work in FFXIV, as they do in many other theme parks. As a WHM, you should know that. Not that a healer's priority is DPS, but we are asked to contribute to it whenever it's safe to do so. Thankfully in latest content and especially in PvP our role ends up being purely keeping buffs up and whatnot, but let us not forget that we are armed with offensive skills.

I saw it comming when SE decided for Bard to be a DPS class with some support skills. In FFXIV there is no pure support role, so classes like Red Mage, Bard or Green Mage would either be a Tank, DPS or Healer with some support skills or a new version of it tailored for FFXIV.

I dislike how there is no full support role, but I made my peace with it.

I can't say I agree with those who feel the sword was, 'grudgingly' added onto Red Mage. It's a core part of the class's gameplay. Red Mages close the distance to deliver some attacks with the sword, with what appear to be combos that build up the power of their spells, and then they back out to deliver a devastating attack. Without that melee component, that vital part of the rotation, the big damage moment doesn't come.

Personally I can't say I see a lot of benefit to auto-attack, but if that is what people are hung up about... its not really that much of a DPS loss? Considering we know little to nothing about the job just yet, who's to say RDM -isn't- viable at close range? Could be a playstyle option, with the optimal design being at range, but melee range being acceptable without a DPS loss, just an increase in possible damage taken.

No, I think RDM looks fantastic. Very hyped to be able to play this job.
It fits my taste 100%.

The RDM looks very stylish overall, I can see many being hyped by it.
That said I don't really like the flying crystal too actually but it gives even more "uniqueness" to the job aesthetic. They could have made rapiers with a crystal already attached under the hilt but it's a clear choice for a more magic look. Players seems to like flying things: many felt in love with the AST weapon.
In the end don't forget that RDM is a ranged DPS, most of its skill are going to be magic for sure and it will fall under the DoM group.

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Originally Posted by Greven

The RDM looks very stylish overall, I can see many being hyped by it.
That said I don't really like the flying crystal too actually but it gives even more "uniqueness" to the job aesthetic. They could have made rapiers with a crystal already attached under the hilt but it's a clear choice for a more magic look. Players seems to like flying things: many felt in love with the AST weapon.
In the end don't forget that RDM is a ranged DPS, most of its skill are going to be magic for sure and it will fall under the DoM group.

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Frankly, I'm hoping the Crystal-Attached RDM weapon isn't present only for cast animations only to have it pop off in between them. An ideal here would probably be spells cast switching to scepter mode until the next sword-based ability, after which it pops off and you go to town on the enemies.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Again, the way the sword is presented looks like they grudgingly added it. An afterthought instead of something more core to the job, despite melee being a part of the RDM concept. They could easily build a ranged job around chainspell, not added the positioning gimmick and it would still be nearly the same. Again, at that point you might as well call it Sage and not Red Mage.

Now, since you avoided the question the first time, I'll ask again: why not just remove the sword, strip the job of the hat, call it Sage and be done with it? If you don't care for the sword that's been in that job's hand since the beginning of the Final Fantasy series, I'm sure you have an actual argument you can present to back up your stance on this.

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Because a Red Mage doesn't need to use a sword as their primary means of attack just to qualify as a Red Mage. A Red Mage's swordplay isn't nearly as integral to its identity as you seem to think it is, to the point where I'd honestly say they included a lot more than I would have expected out of a Caster. But of course, anything that isn't a close quarters job to you is going to be considered "tacked on" (whereas your idea of a melee job that flings spell procs couldn't possibly be considered tacked on magic).

You keep bringing up Sage like it's somehow supposed to be this grand checkmate to me, a guy who doesn't care whether or not Red Mage uses a sword or not, but it's not nearly as effective as you think. Red Mages can equip a sword and use it a little. That's enough to qualify as a Red Mage, whether you like it or not.

Except "a little" in this case entails a currently unknown quantity of melee attacks supported by another currently unknown quantity of spells to cast, because we have less than 1 minute of footage to go off of.

I'm not sure how any hard and fast opinion on the job can be made when we literally only saw it fight for 18-25 seconds. I'm not interested in leveling it, so I'm neutral anyway, but maybe its best to hold off judgment until we know more.

He keeps bringing up Sage because it historically can also use white and black magic, but notably better than Red Mage. Difference is, they can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Am I the only, in old school FFs, used RDMs melee for trash mobs, heals out of combat/boss fights, and only nuked when the mob was weak to the element? (or i attacked when my MP was getting low, due to RDMs lower MP pool, and near identical dmg with a sword anyways?)

If anything, I melee'd more as a RDM, than I casted on trash mobs, and I used healing more than anything else on bosses. (In remakes of FF1, used a lot of support spells, so my WHM was free to keep healing.)

So I do see RDM using its melee nearly as much as its black and white magic. (So far, im pretty content with RDM in XIV, as long as it does what SE says, and uses all 3 to some extent, to maximize its performance, even if it doesnt fit the same role I give it in prior FFs)

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Originally Posted by Greven

The RDM looks very stylish overall, I can see many being hyped by it.
That said I don't really like the flying crystal too actually but it gives even more "uniqueness" to the job aesthetic. They could have made rapiers with a crystal already attached under the hilt but it's a clear choice for a more magic look. Players seems to like flying things: many felt in love with the AST weapon.
In the end don't forget that RDM is a ranged DPS, most of its skill are going to be magic for sure and it will fall under the DoM group.

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The Crystal in the Off hand is a representation of fencers, who used lanterns in their off hand, because more modern fencers were required to duel at night, to avoid trouble with the law.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

Because a Red Mage doesn't need to use a sword as their primary means of attack just to qualify as a Red Mage.

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This is debatable, considering the job is built around sword & spell.

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A Red Mage's swordplay isn't nearly as integral to its identity as you seem to think it is

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And how do you reach this conclusion? If you're going by console FFs and only console FFs you're limiting your spectrum of options because those games hinder the job due to turn-based combat. Hence why the three aspects of RDM were segregated and SE had to give the job other gimmicks to help it (see: Doublecast).

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But of course, anything that isn't a close quarters job to you is going to be considered "tacked on" (whereas your idea of a melee job that flings spell procs couldn't possibly be considered tacked on magic).

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My suggestion is actually quite different, because you still keep the main benefit of ranged spells. Hypothetically, a RDM that can use a proc to insta-cast Fire in melee range still has the option of hard-casting Fire from range depending on the situation. So if the boss were to take to the air, far enough that only ranged can hit it, a RDM has the option of dealing heavier damage than a PLD using Shield Lob or a DRG using Piercing Talon; the trade-off being MP consumption and a decent cast time.

That's an entirely different story from standing in range only to sometimes melee before going back into range.

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You keep bringing up Sage like it's somehow supposed to be this grand checkmate to me

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Actually, I bring up Sage because if you want a caster that does both black and white magic with no fighting skill at all, Sage is the job you're looking for. If you want a sword (plus the melee skill to actually use it in addition to the other elements of the job while sacrificing some spell power) and a pimp hat, you want a Red Mage.

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Except "a little" in this case entails a currently unknown quantity of melee attacks supported by another currently unknown quantity of spells to cast, because we have less than 1 minute of footage to go off of.

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As I've said before, if they wanted to display the job's elements, the demo was the perfect opportunity to do so. And what was shown to us was a guy standing far from the target spamming magic, doing an arbitrary dash to the enemy before leaping back out and casting a flare lookalike.

Considering the demos for other revealed jobs have been mostly representative of their subject matter (I think AST's was the only one that was very very vague, not counting the ACN/SCH/SMN reveal footage), I believe it is acceptable to be concerned.

You're right in that we don't have much to work with. I'll add that the developers haven't said anything about gameplay (and likely won't until the February fanfest), but that doesn't mean concerns shouldn't be voiced. Concerns do count as feedback, after all. Even when you don't agree with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmwFQmXIZW0

With the rise of ice mages, I can aleady see it happening, melee only RDMs just because they wanna be fully melee and will not use ranged spells l0l. Then will complain they get kicked from duties. Hear me on this one.