Should PLD and WAR get gap-closers at 70?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The part where you don't lose the first tick, since, by the time Salted Earth actually starts, you've already engaged the target.

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That is not how that works. Salted earth doesn't wait to start ticking for your Unmend animation to go off and the boss to run forward.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Sure. In exchange, I'll take Equilibrium, Thrill of Battle, off-gcd stance swaps, Spirits Within, an on-demand stun, a magic damage version of Cover, Sheltron, Fight or Flight, Divine Veil, and an invincibility move that isn't healer dependent.

Every tank already has a method of negating knockback, one of which doesn't even require a target.

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And where are this skills for a paladin?

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Why would you use Plunge so early in the opener when you could land it later with Slashing debuff and possible TA?

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Because with such a short CD, you'll lose more DPS by delaying it.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

That is not how that works. Salted earth doesn't wait to start ticking for your Unmend animation to go off and the boss to run forward.

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Salted Earth's first tick is after 3 seconds

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Salted Earth's first tick is after 3 seconds

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If this is how people think ground-targeted AoE DoTs work I hope PLD and WAR don't ask for a Salted Earth clone at 70 as well.

https://s18.postimg.org/7vj4is9mh/Sc...0_09_53_PM.png

Salted Earth here ticking for 437 as the counter went from 21 to 20 (1 second, not 3, for the arithmetically impaired.) The 240 above it is Scourge.

It follows the server tick which runs constantly and doesn't care when you cast the ability.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Salted Earth's first tick is after 3 seconds

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Ground-effect AoEs tick on a timer based on when you enter the current zone. It's not a flat 3 seconds after usage.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Salted Earth here ticking for 437 as the counter went from 21 to 20 (1 second, not 3, for the arithmetically impaired.) The 240 above it is Scourge.

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Yes, you're right.

But please, make the test for each opener and just count the number of ticks.

In fact, Salted Earth don't even care what you do, it ticks the same, whatever skill you use, so I really don't understand where the "losing one tick" comes from...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because with such a short CD, you'll lose more DPS by delaying it.

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You only lose DPS if you use nothing in its place. All I'm suggesting is using the string of oGCDs in a different order: buffs (potion), magical (Salt, DP, not boosted by slashing so might as well get those out of the way), low blow if Slashing isn't up yet (smaller DPS loss than Plunge/C&S without slashing), by now Slashing should be up so C&S and Plunge.

Even if you can't get Slashing/TA and believe you should blow everything as soon as possible, you start with your strongest CDs first, which is Salt and C&S, making Plunge your 3rd CD at earliest. But since you can't double weave it, it actually ends up being one of your weaker oGCD fillers, so you use it later.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Even if you can't get Slashing/TA and believe you should blow everything as soon as possible, you start with your strongest CDs first, which is Salt and C&S, making Plunge your 3rd CD at earliest. But since you can't double weave it, it actually ends up being one of your weaker oGCD fillers, so you use it later.

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Considering C&S is a close ranged skill, how is it better than plunge when I'm not even at close range yet ?

Once I'm at close range, of course C&S is the first CD to use.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering C&S is a close ranged skill, how is it better than plunge when I'm not even at close range yet ?

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Because you have other oGCDs that you can use at range for better value. You can also use C&S before your 2nd GCD easily even if you run up normally, the only thing you might gain is ~1s on AA timer. But here are some other options, let's take the same oGCD slot after Unmend :
-Potion > Plunge (should always use buffs before any other oGCDs, this is the only one for DRK)
-Salt+C&S (525+450) > Plunge (200) (precasted DA)
-C&S (450) > Plunge (200) (even without double weaving this is better)
-Salt (525) > Plunge (200) (if you can't double weave Salt, still better)
-DP+LB (150+100) > Plunge (200)

Honestly putting aside the DPS loss of pulling with Plunge, for me the bigger factor has always been the other people in the party. Unless your melee know that you're going to Plunge and don't prepare to use their gap closers, they're going to lose DPS. Then there's the fact that if you force them to use their gap closer, they can't use it for something else early in the fight. MNKs also lose DPS since they typically use Tackle later in the opener, DRG's Elusive Jump has a looong CD and if they're forced to use Spineshatter they also lose DPS. Then there's SMN and SCH who often precast their Shadowflare in front of the boss and if you don't move the boss over it on pull, it's going to be wasted. Do I really need to come up with more reasons?

TL;DR: Plunge-pulling gains you ~1s AA timer that is offset by not using better oGCD options. Not Plunge-pulling gains you more overall DPS, saves melee gap closer CDs, allows precasted Shadowflare and better control over boss positioning.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Once I'm at close range, of course C&S is the first CD to use.

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If you have a NIN it's better to hold it for TA. Even without NIN you'd want to hold it til you're out of Grit.

Also Plunge on the pull is kinda fine I guess, just not optimal. You'd ideally want to hold it for TA + MCH thing + BL but it's not as big of a deal as C&S.

Both are also situational, since if you lose a use of Plunge/C&S from delaying them then you're looking at a DPS loss. As well as this, you might actually need to move the boss at the start in which case Plunge after Unmend would be silly.

Salted Earth is the same as the rest, you'd be better putting it down outside of Grit and all that.

Haven't tanked w/ DRK since they made the VIT changes, but my opener was usually DA -> Unmend -> DP -> PS combo -> drop Grit -> Scourge -> [all the stuff]. Dunno how much aggro you need before dropping Grit now though.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

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This depends on the fight really and if/when the boss goes untargetable. I.E. If you can get in an extra use of C&S before a boss jumps by using it early (still in Grit), you should.

Problem with plunge is it does DMG, thus unless your using it to start a fight you ain't gonna use it as a gap closer. I think PLD an WAR should get it for sure it's tone of fun to use! Its usfulness is subjective though.

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Originally Posted by Androir

And where are this skills for a paladin?

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Tempered Will. Cures Heavy and Bind, and negates knockback and pull-in for 10s.

You get this at level 42. You should know about it.

i wish plunge would be an GCD skill with an increased enmity bonus. then we could use it for pulling and it's other utility stuff without bothering about damage :x