Dragoon Poll (Should DRG have a Wyvern?)

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

how would you know....oh wait, your only thinking FFXI and not outside the box.

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After 8 years, FFXI dragoon pet is still useless. Healing breath was the only usefulness it provided. Dragoons are dragon killers, not dragon tamers. XIV DRG can most likely do all that without a pet. No compromises on the DRG that way.

Man if people want a pet so bad play beastmaster or summoner.

If there is going to be a pet-type class or two coming out in the future, then I'd say "sure, having a wyvern pet is useless". But if there won't be such a class, then I'd say "why not?".

I'm not a lancer (yet), but if I become one, I wouldn't really have a preference if I got a pet or not..

Then again I love in-game pets.. So I'd probably be more excited to see them get the pet. But remember, if they don't get a pet, then I'd at least expect a pet type class to come out later..

(sorry I'm probably not helping at all with this babble)

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Originally Posted by indira

without a wyvern its a lancer, with a wyvern is a dragoon :)

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There are Dragoons in the game. Who use sword w/ shield and a battleaxe, neither of which have a dragon/wyvern/pet/pal/friend/buddy/chum

Wonder how the JP and other language forums feel about this? I so hope its the same...

But woohoo on the no votes :D

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

That's nothing unique though. All that defined a Dragoon was Jump. Everything else numerous jobs (especially thanks to Tactics/TTA and XI) share the same kind of abilities.

So if you research Dragoon, the only defining feature of it is the ability to Jump as no other job throughout history had jump as a feature, much like the defining traits of a Thief is Steal/Mug and the ability to see hidden passages.

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what are you talking about, all those are abilities of past Dragoon classes......

I am a little confused on this, and other threads, where proponents of the wyvern pet lambast naysayers for being "stuck on ffxi".

Dragoon was only ever a pet job in FFXI. It would seem that the wyvern proponents are the ones stuck on FFXI, and not the posters longing for Dragoon of the olden days, where Kain alone ruled the skies. :3

OMG, Marauder is getting Warrior?? How boring! If you want to hit and kill things, keep playing Marauder, let's ask for a walrus pet for Warrior to make it an awesome job!!! I hope no class gets a pure DD job, pets are the way to go!

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Reliquia

I am for a wyvern pet, I just liked the company of my loyal pet. Regardless of what the dragoon history has been in the earlier FF games I felt the wyvern made the class a lot more distinct in FFXI. And what better way to make combos than making combos with your wyvern?

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agreed, def in favor of a pet.

se can make it useful..comparing this to 11 is pointless until we actually see if a pet is actually introduced first and also...what they allow it to do ^^.

i love pet based jobs, bst, smn, drg ,pup were all alot of fun. i miss carby so bad, he was my fav!

to each his own, theres no right or wrong answer, but if i had a choice then yup....gimmie my pet plz

I think that most of all <like> on "I want a gremlins that gimps my job" are no lancers....

Other classes are scared how the drg can be the most cool job in FFXIV.

sounds like double the work but can't they just make dragoon the tough strong character they want it to be when the wyvern isn't out. then when u pull him out he becomes the weaker version with different additional wyvern moves? the point of chosing witch i think is them saying it's twice the work to give you a correct version of it? just wondering. but ffxi had the wyvern and i'd like to see wyvern again, maybe just make it so wyvern is always out then? and only dies with you? so that way you both equal the strength they wanted? i dunno just wondering. or maybe just make wyvern out equal diff moves that don't remove strenght from you class. like you have 3 feeble moves, but when you pull out wyvern they disapear but your wyvern has 3 totally different ones. i dunno just wondering?

Apologies in advance for my massive text. TL;DR at the bottom.

Let me try approaching from a more technical aspect why a "Pet melee job" in most cases is usually detrimental to it's own balance and by proxy results in its over all weakness.

When speaking of most other Melee DD classes, their power is defined by several aspects which can be controlled to some degree (and others that can't). For example. When warrior is introduced as the Primary Melee Damage power house, it'll have abilities and inherent traits (Stats or passive traits) that make it naturally fit into this role. From there a player can then use Gear as an enhancement to further improve it's effectiveness.

When other variables come into play like Mob level difference or certain special moves or mob gimmicks, the player through skill and other means can work around it without compromising too much on their over all power.

Using XI as an example (Only because it seems to be the one example everyone is familiar with) When you encountered an HNM, all DD's had a significant damage loss than if they were fighting an Even match. This was expected, as some mobs were designed with higher defense, on top of their already steep level difference. But it affected all DD's the same. From there the DD's abilities, gear, and food allowed it to fight this "gimp" as best as possible.

When making a melee pet class there are several things to keep in mind to maintain balance. The first being that "when pet and player damage are added together, they are equivalent in balance to another melee damage class". So in some way, the Player has to be less potent than other melee's by itself to justify the need for the pet. On paper this doesn't sound bad but other variables later make this problematic.

The other being that augmentation of the pet (and player) has to be balanced between other classes as to not allow that either the pet, or player (or both) far exceed the damage dealing capabilities of another Primary DD class. In XI, Pet augmentation equipment was rare until recently. You'd hardly find any equipment that said "PET: Accuracy +" or anything that would help improve it's DD for this reason. This often came at a cost as well. If you used a specific piece of equipment to enhance your wyvern, you were losing a vital piece of gear for yourself. If you made a piece that gave a decent amount to both, you run the risk of the combo of player and pet becoming too powerful than any other class.

This becomes even more compounded when you factor in that a pet can't gain Food advantages like a player.

When a Melee pet class is presented with a situation of HNM's where level difference penalties and over all high stats of a mob cut damage, a melee pet DD recieves this penalty twice. One for the actual player, and one for the pet. As mentioned before, the player can compensate with food and better gear. But for balance reasons this poor pet has almost nothing to help it improve and compete. Even if the Player compensates as much as possible, the design of the combo relies on "both" dealing damage together and as a whole the combo is far less powerful than any other DD that just has to worry about himself.

Then worrying about handling things like Stray AoE's or status effects affecting the mob as well. If the pet dies, that damage is completely lost until it's called back. Healing the pet becomes inefficient because you have more MP being spent (assuming direct cure is possible) to keep this mediocre damage dealer alive just to justify having the Melee pet combo there in the first place. Over all MP inefficiency is detrimental to EVERYONE participating.

All in all, The variables and various components it would take to balance the class and actually make it worthwhile to play are so numerous that it becomes nearly impossible. Having the pet comprises your job, not enhances it. If you want your class to actually be balanced and liked as equally as any other melee Damage dealer out there, You should understand that having a pet will only take that away.

TL;DR - Having a pet with a melee job just causes too many problems and there are too many variables to appropriately account for game balance. In the long Run, if Dragoon does get a wyvern pet, it will ultimately bring the class down as a whole.

Pet for Dragon Knight was a one time occurrence that only happened in FF11 and it should stay that way.

I personally like the focus there putting on Dragoon as a petless combo master. I wouldn't be opposed to a pet variant job of lancer down the line though.

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Originally Posted by Griss

I personally like the focus there putting on Dragoon as a petless combo master. I wouldn't be opposed to a pet variant job of lancer down the line though.

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then what will become of our future SAMs O.o;

I find it amusing that a lot of the people who don't want (stated in post - not the count)don't even have lnc at a substantial level or leveled at all after checking a myriad of names on pro out of curiosity. Seems to make it moot on some level.

Anyway - I'd like a pet.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I find it amusing that a lot of the people who don't want (stated in post - not the count)don't even have lnc at a substantial level or leveled at all after checking a myriad of names on pro out of curiosity. Seems to make it moot on some level.

Anyway - I'd like a pet.

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I do not support anything you say... ever. Infact, stop thinking for yourself immediately or I shall be forced to call you a troll.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I find it amusing that a lot of the people who don't want (stated in post - not the count)don't even have lnc at a substantial level or leveled at all after checking a myriad of names on pro out of curiosity. Seems to make it moot on some level.

Anyway - I'd like a pet.

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LMAO such a good point huh? im a 50 lancer and yes...i want a pet.

Hey i'm a lvl 50 LNC and i vote no to pets.

They have already announced that all classes with get some sort of pet or fighting chocobos.

They also have said that If Dragoons do gets Dragon pets that the will have to make Dragoons weaker.

Sounds like a Lose Lose.

I vote no Dragons. It doesn't make sense that a Dragon hunter would have a Dragon pet.

I think of Dragoons as a the Hardest Hitting Pure Melee class, a dragon pet would undermine that.

If any class should be trading Melee damage for spells it should be DRK.

(going a bit off topic here, please forgive me)

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

then what will become of our future SAMs O.o;

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Given the cultural significance of the samurai in japan.
Eating thunder and crapping lightning would be there bread and butter?

I mean hell the samurai occupies the same spot as the knight does for medieval Europe and the cowboy/gunslinger of the American old west.

There cultural icons.

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Originally Posted by Griss

(going a bit off topic here, please forgive me)



Given the cultural significance of the samurai in japan.
Eating thunder and crapping lightning would be there bread and butter?

I mean hell the samurai occupies the same spot as the knight does for medieval Europe and the cowboy/gunslinger of the American old west.

There cultural icons.

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Yet, they always take a back seat to ninja's from a company based in Japan. I think that's a bit Weird.

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

Hey i'm a lvl 50 LNC and i vote no to pets.

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Same here. Especially after Yoshida saying having a pet would cause them to make the Dragoon himself weaker.

I'd much rather be the badass combo/crit class he was talking about.

Yoshida-san has been all about compromise with everythign else. I don't see why they couldn't make the pet optional. If you have it your strength is split between wyvern and dragoon. Also make it so the wyvern only gets K.O.'d when you do and not by itself, so you can't suddenly be knocked down to half strength.
It could be quested, and those who choose not to use it remain at full strength.
There could be lore that makes sense for those who choose to have a wyvern companion.

I don't think I'll play dragoon without a wyvern personally. It just doesn't fit my character.

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

people need to stop thinking its going to be like how FFXI's pet was, paper skin, huge recast, little control...for all we know it could be amazing. Give some skills we set, make it not die in a couple AoE's....its could be great, but of course people would rather see themselves do all the damage because in FFXI noone counted the pet damage.

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I did and when I was parsed against other DDs they'd be like "loldrg" I reply "Now add Kagero's damage too.." then it ends with "... I hate you! -_-" and I wrap it all up with "IN YO FACE! <3"

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I find it amusing that a lot of the people who don't want (stated in post - not the count)don't even have lnc at a substantial level or leveled at all after checking a myriad of names on pro out of curiosity. Seems to make it moot on some level.

Anyway - I'd like a pet.

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you know why my Lancer is still level 1? Because I am leveling all the other jobs I want to a point first, Lance > Dragoon is the last thing I will be doing, so I can enjoy it to its fullest

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

you know why my Lancer is still level 1? Because I am leveling all the other jobs I want to a point first, Lance > Dragoon is the last thing I will be doing, so I can enjoy it to its fullest

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.......... I'm sure.

If they go with Pets for all classes, other then SUM/BST style ones I really would prefer generic pets that can be called by all classes/jobs..

The few people wanting the FFXI style DRG ain't enough imo to warrant chaining a huge chunk of the lore, especially over something like this.

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Originally Posted by Esk

If they go with Pets for all classes, other then SUM/BST style ones I really would prefer generic pets that can be called by all classes/jobs..

The few people wanting the FFXI style DRG ain't enough imo to warrant chaining a huge chunk of the lore, especially over something like this.

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Because the lore spin we are going to get for Bard won't be fun enough for them to explain?!!!

I'm not much of a lancer already anyway, but if I had to choose I'd prefer no Wyvern. Just a personal preference. Don't debuff my job so I can have a mediocre substitute flying next to me. I'd rather be at 100% with some 'dragon abilities' instead. Or something of the like. I'm nay on the Wyverns.

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Originally Posted by Nabiri

Yoshida-san has been all about compromise with everythign else. I don't see why they couldn't make the pet optional. If you have it your strength is split between wyvern and dragoon. Also make it so the wyvern only gets K.O.'d when you do and not by itself, so you can't suddenly be knocked down to half strength.
It could be quested, and those who choose not to use it remain at full strength.
There could be lore that makes sense for those who choose to have a wyvern companion.

I don't think I'll play dragoon without a wyvern personally. It just doesn't fit my character.

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Basically, this would take the form of another Job entirely. Which I think would be a great idea! It'd just also probably happen some time -after- 2.0 is already in play.

Trying to shoehorn two rather different mechanics into the same Job would be a recipe for disaster, balance-wise, and their resources are stretched too thin right now to try and make this work in a satisfactory manner.

In any event the entire discussion seems predicated on a mistranslation of what Yoshida said in the first place, just like the 'jumping confirmed!' threads, so...

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

I find it amusing that a lot of the people who don't want (stated in post - not the count)don't even have lnc at a substantial level or leveled at all after checking a myriad of names on pro out of curiosity. Seems to make it moot on some level.

Anyway - I'd like a pet.

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50 lnc as my first 50 and DRG in XI as my first 75 way back in 2003/4

Needless to say DRG is kind of my thing and I do not want a pet.

I understand you guys do and thats fine to have your opinion but the bickering is getting old. The simple fact is many people want to stand on their own two feet and have the Dragonic theme along with jumping to themselves.

I loved my wyvern in XI, I spent time choosing his name, used his abilities to their fullest making 2 drg/mage 4 DD parties multiple times. But having a pet requires balance and survivability issues that XI still could use some work on. The effort it takes vs reward sometimes is piss poor. Especially in high aoe situations where you're suddenly down part of your identity. Could it be introduced balanced and useful? Of course it could, but will it happen? Highly doubtful.

With that said, I merely want to play this class idea that they have crit combos, with a flavor of kain/freya/FFTA with my own character!

Personally I think they could make branches one specific to lancer abilities etc and the second branch to a pet type spec something to that regard but make it indepth system imo.

This is why I did it on the lancer forums, who cares what non lancers want!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

This is why I did it on the lancer forums, who cares what non lancers want!

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/nod agreed even though my side still falls into the minority there too :P

If anyone has ever played Rappelz they will agree. I love pets in any and all mmorpgs. Fully customizable AI and skill sets would be a great addition to the game IF and only if SE can get it right.

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

/nod agreed even though my side still falls into the minority there too :P

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Don't sweat it - this certainly doesn't represent any kind of empirical data collection, lol.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

Don't sweat it - this certainly doesn't represent any kind of empirical data collection, lol.

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I'm not concerned, if We don't get pets I'll just wait til we get bst and smn. I am a pet class guy, while I love the classic Dragoon I think a lil innovation ontop of that would be a great thing. FFXI did it but failed and I think FFXIV could do it better so everyone could forget the fk up they had in XI completely.

People these days are so consumed in doing more dmg and being better then everyone else but forsake the fun factor in their gaming. Me I wouldn't care if I had a job that did 1 dmg (lolcrafterfighter) aslong as I could do that 1 dmg and have fun and look cool.

still love how the people so against it (like the guy with the wyvern cancel sig) are 1) not even lancers themselves or barely touched it and 2) only think it has to be exactly like FFXI and it for some crazy reason will not be different in this game.

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

still love how the people so against it (like the guy with the wyvern cancel sig) are 1) not even lancers themselves or barely touched it and 2) only think it has to be exactly like FFXI and it for some crazy reason will not be different in this game.

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You sir get the ultimate penalty for dissaproval.
http://www.google.com/url?source=img...2WhaICFTezMX7g

(Ok i've had my fun for the day)

I wonder what this poll would look like if there was the third option:

"Like this Post if you wouldn't mind if having a wyvern pet was optional. Totally optional. No loss for not having one."