Would you like an in-game parser?

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

In my experience, it's almost never the feedback on performance that's the problem, but the way in which that feedback is given. There's a world of difference between: "/p omg Joe Averagenoob only did 900 DPS on that fight. What a losernoob. Vote kick and git gud." and "/tell Joe Averagenoob Hey, I noticed your DPS was a little low compared to what I've seen. Would you like some pointers to help you perform better, or a guide to help you better understand your job?"

More often, I've seen parsers lead to the former kind of behavior than the latter.

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Really? In my time playing the game since 1.0 the most aggressive, toxic players are the ones not using a parser who think the group failures are someone else's fault. The example that sticks out in my mind most is a run with a brd and machinist in Fractal Continuum. The Mch and Brd were both doing less damage than the tank in the party, but the only person complaining about the dps was the Mch. He kept yelling at the Brd for being bad and letting his dots drop, all while the yelling mch kept dying every 30 seconds to avoidable aoes.

If anything, a chart displaying total damage/healing done similar to what's seen in PvP will be nice.

The system is already in place, all the need to do it put it in dungeons

I actually find it pretty interesting how large the divide is between "Yes" (either option) and "No". Given the amount of animosity that crops up on either side when this discussion pops up, I was expecting a more even split between "No" and "Yes" but this certainly isn't the case.

I wonder if that'll change over time if we can keep this thread on the front page for a while /think

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I actually find it pretty interesting how large the divide is between "Yes" (either option) and "No". Given the amount of animosity that crops up on either side when this discussion pops up, I was expecting a more even split between "No" and "Yes" but this certainly isn't the case.

I wonder if that'll change over time if we can keep this thread on the front page for a while /think

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It makes it seem like people saying "no" are in such an outrage to state why it shouldn't happen, that they don't even read what was said

Personally, I think adding anything other than a full, comprehensive, group parser would be a waste of time. It's either a go big or go home sort of deal. If you don't have full access to all pertinent information, it is likely to create frustration in players and users - which increases the chance of hostility.

There are thousands upon thousands of possible outcomes for every scenario, so I won't pretend to create a 'likely' outcome given a scenario. Instead, I'll just leave my statement above as is.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I actually find it pretty interesting how large the divide is between "Yes" (either option) and "No". Given the amount of animosity that crops up on either side when this discussion pops up, I was expecting a more even split between "No" and "Yes" but this certainly isn't the case.

I wonder if that'll change over time if we can keep this thread on the front page for a while /think

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The animosity is mostly between those who oppose public display of dps numbers (whether it's through not having a parser or only having a personal parser), and those who want to see other people's numbers. If you look at the votes, very few oppose a tool to improve oneself but more than half oppose the information being on public display.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I wouldn't say the votes 'oppose' anything, they 'support' something. One can support a personal parser, while not being opposed to a group one. Similarly, one can support a group parser but not be opposed to a personal one. Personally, I am opposed to a personal parser and would rather have a group one, or no parser.

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You can vote more than one option. The ones you don't vote for, you oppose. The ones you do vote for, you support. I predict the personal parser option will end up getting most votes because it's a good compromise.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The animosity is mostly between those who oppose public display of dps numbers (whether it's through not having a parser or only having a personal parser), and those who want to see other people's numbers. If you look at the votes, very few oppose a tool to improve oneself but more than half oppose the information being on public display.

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I wouldn't say the votes 'oppose' anything, they 'support' something. One can support a personal parser, while not being opposed to a group one. Similarly, one can support a group parser but not be opposed to a personal one. Personally, I am opposed to a personal parser and would rather have a group one, or no parser.

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You can vote more than one option. The ones you don't vote for, you oppose. The ones you do vote for, you support. I predict the personal parser option will end up getting most votes because it's a good compromise.

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While you can vote more than one option, I would not say that not supporting something = opposing it.

No I would prefer not to have a parser. I enjoy this game all the more precisely BECAUSE it has less "metermaids" waving their epeens all over the screen than other games.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

No I would prefer not to have a parser. I enjoy this game all the more precisely BECAUSE it has less "metermaids" waving their epeens all over the screen than other games.

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I find it interesting that you are alluding to preferring the better community here, but then use terms like 'metermaids' and 'epeens'.

You need a post for: honestly could care less.

I really don't care. A parser is good for people who want to maximize their potential but not having one hasn't stopped guilds from clearing 95% of the content in game.

So really, I'm not in any camp. To me, I know I'm doing well. The comms given to me after a run as a dps are a pretty good indicator mostly.

My two cents.

The closest thing to an official parser is already in game. It's called Stone, Sea, Sky. If you can't kill the dummy in the allotted time, your dps isn't good enough. Period. Don't bother trying to get in to the dungeon/trial/whatever till you get better gear, or iron out the kinks in your skill rotation. Just because you have the item level to open the door doesn't automatically mean you should be in there.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

The closest thing to an official parser is already in game. It's called Stone, Sea, Sky. If you can't kill the dummy in the allotted time, your dps isn't good enough. Period. Don't bother trying to get in to the dungeon/trial/whatever till you get better gear, or iron out the kinks in your skill rotation. Just because you have the item level to open the door doesn't automatically mean you should be in there.

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Your first sentence makes very little sense. The SSS is not the closest thing in existence to a parser, so by that, I assume you mean it is the closest thing in the game. In which case, the closest thing in the game is already in the game is a bit redundant?

That said, assuming you meant to say, "there is already a method to measure your damage in the game, and it is close enough to a parser that there is no need to add a parser." Then I'd say I disagree. I do not find SSS is sufficient, even remotely.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I find it interesting that you are alluding to preferring the better community here, but then use terms like 'metermaids' and 'epeens'.

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I'm not certain what's "interesting" about my post. The community here is generally pleasant. I don't see chat spammed with various meters and/or people using them to shame or berate others. If you don't like my choice of words to describe the types of people I've encountered in other games with parsers then I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

I'm not certain what's "interesting" about my post. The community here is generally pleasant. I don't see chat spammed with various meters and/or people using them to shame or berate others. If you don't like my choice of words to describe the types of people I've encountered in other games with parsers then I apologize.

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I guess I could have been more direct. I found your choice of words to describe an entire group of people to be rather prejudicial and rude, which is hypocritical given the meaning of your post.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

The animosity is mostly between those who oppose public display of dps numbers (whether it's through not having a parser or only having a personal parser), and those who want to see other people's numbers. If you look at the votes, very few oppose a tool to improve oneself but more than half oppose the information being on public display.


You can vote more than one option. The ones you don't vote for, you oppose. The ones you do vote for, you support. I predict the personal parser option will end up getting most votes because it's a good compromise.

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I'm inclined to agree with Kaurie's comment on this one. While I didn't vote for Personal Parser it doesn't mean I oppose it either. More information is better, I just feel it's better to have ALL the information readily available. *Inserts my repeated comments about AST here*

I also imagine there is a lot of overlap with "I support a group parser" and "I support a personal parser" as some posters choose to vote both. To them, it means more information overall in their own performance and they do not care which of these options are implemented (and thus don't care if their DPS information is either public or private).

As an extension to the comment you responded to, I would be interested in seeing how many people voted to both options of "yes".

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Your first sentence makes very little sense. The SSS is not the closest thing in existence to a parser, so by that, I assume you mean it is the closest thing in the game. In which case, the closest thing in the game is already in the game is a bit redundant?

That said, assuming you meant to say, "there is already a method to measure your damage in the game, and it is close enough to a parser that there is no need to add a parser." Then I'd say I disagree. I do not find SSS is sufficient, even remotely.

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It makes perfect sense. Is English not your first language? Let me break it down for you then. The devs have already said no to a parser. SSS however, was their compromise. That is all you are getting, because that is all they will ever be ok with. If you need "more" as you say you do, then use whatever 3rd party tool is available. It will more than likely never be accepted by SE, and is still a punishable offense if you harass someone with numbers.

Was that clear enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Dorander

It makes perfect sense. Is English not your first language? Let me break it down for you then. The devs have already said no to a parser. SSS however, was their compromise. That is all you are getting, because that is all they will ever be ok with. If you need "more" as you say you do, then use whatever 3rd party tool is available. It will more than likely never be accepted by SE, and is still a punishable offense if you harass someone with numbers.

Was that clear enough for you?

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I am not sure if you fully read my post. It made little sense because you said, "The closest thing to an official parser is already in game." SSS is not the 'closest thing to a parser' - so by that extension, I made the assumption that you were saying 'the closest thing [in the game] to a parser'. However, that may have been an incorrect assumption. In which case, your sentence makes sense, it is just incorrect.

To add on to the second part of your post. The devs have said mixed things regarding parsers, and I am unsure exactly their stance. To be honest, I feel this may have to do with meaning lost in translation of interviews and live letters. That said, even if the dev team is strongly opposed to a parser, if the majority of their user base wants one, it would probably be in their best business interests to oblige. I believe that is the entire purpose of this thread and the votes on the first page.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

It makes perfect sense. Is English not your first language?

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That's not something you say to someone, unless you are genuinely concerned and you phrase it more respectfully. It's a very rude way of disagreeing with someone.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I guess I could have been more direct. I found your choice of words to describe an entire group of people to be rather prejudicial and rude, which is hypocritical given the meaning of your post.

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I did not say every person who uses a parser is a "metermaid". I've used parsers myself in other games. Unfortunately far too many people take what should be a useful tool for personal betterment and use it as a weapon to berate others and/or prop up their own self-esteem. This is likely why SE decided against a parser in the first place. I'm not being hypocritical, prejudicial, or even (in my opinion) rude. Perhaps a bit cynical sure, but ultimately, at least from my own experiences in other games, I'm not wrong about ffxiv being better for not having metermaids waving their epeens all over chat and I see nothing wrong with that statement. Who you personally define as a "metermaid" is not for me to decide.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

I did not say every person who uses a parser is a "metermaid". I've used parsers myself in other games. Unfortunately far too many people take what should be a useful tool for personal betterment and use it as a weapon to berate others and/or prop up their own self-esteem. I'm not being hypocritical, prejudicial, or even (in my opinion) rude. Perhaps a bit cynical sure, but ultimately, at least from my own experiences in other games, I'm not wrong about ffxiv being better for not having metermaids waving their epeens all over chat and I see nothing wrong with that statement. Who you personally define as a "metermaid" is not for me to decide.

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I see, I guess I misunderstood and assumed you were classifying anyone who cares about a parser to be a 'metermaid'. I feel that your argument would go a lot further if you used more respectful language though.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I see, I guess I misunderstood and assumed you were classifying anyone who cares about a parser to be a 'metermaid'. I feel that your argument would go a lot further if you used more respectful language though.

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I suppose I can understand where you are coming from. I'm older, a bit jaded, and a bit cynical from gaming over multiple decades, so I have some "baggage", as it were, which colors my view of things in games and thus affects my response to certain topics. I do apologize if my choice of words did not sit well with you.

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I'm VERY new to this game and mmos in general. My first mmo was Tera - Don't give me that look - This is my second. I main monk and if you've ran with me ever I hope I never provided poor DPS. I think I do tho as I'm still learning and doing things to my rotation as we speak. I used to be against DPS meters in Tera as it's kindof toxic there. But here I'm in a different stance, I wouldn't mind at all for a DPS meter and wouldn't mind if my DPS was shown. I only want to improve and even in dungeons where I KNOW I sucked people have been really nice to me. I don't think I've ever been told I suck even when I know I did. I honestly think people who are saying no are jaded with most fanbases. This has been the most untoxic game I've EVER played in all my video game life. I think a DPS meter could do nothing but help everyone, look. If people are going to be toxic not having a DPS meter isn't going to stop them.


I see no harm in putting one in, it's just a tool. Assholes will be assholes with or without said tools honestly.

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Originally Posted by cammi

I see no harm in putting one in, it's just a tool. Assholes will be assholes with or without said tools honestly.

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You see no harm because this community is fairly pleasant. But you also saw how toxic Terra was. Assholes might be assholes with or without tools... but why give them tools they'd likely misuse to turn this pleasant community into yet another cesspool of toxicity? I'm not saying that would definitely happen, but why take the chance? There's already a 3rd party tool you can use to measure your own dps. Any of us can use that for personal improvement along with SSS and still maintain the nice community we have.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

You see no harm because this community is fairly pleasant. But you also saw how toxic Terra was. Assholes might be assholes with or without tools... but why give them tools they'd likely misuse to turn this pleasant community into yet another cesspool of toxicity? I'm not saying that would definitely happen, but why take the chance? There's already a 3rd party tool you can use to measure your own dps. Any of us can use that for personal improvement along with SSS and still maintain the nice community we have.

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There's no empirical proof that adding a parser would suddenly turn the community into a toxic cesspool either. You probably get parsed every single day and don't even know it because most people that run parsers don't say a word about it ingame for fear of persecution. Adding an official parser wouldn't suddenly make berating someone about their numbers not qualify as harassment either, so people would still have recourse if someone was being a dick to them over parse numbers. FYI, PS3 and PS4 users cannot use the existing third party software, which is why people keep advocating for either 1) addon support or 2) an ingame parser. It's patently unfair to those users (and PS3 and PS4 actually make up a substantial portion of the playerbase, at least in my experience) to have to basically beg someone on a PC rig to parse them.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

No I would prefer not to have a parser. I enjoy this game all the more precisely BECAUSE it has less "metermaids" waving their epeens all over the screen than other games.

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It's funny how you wanna promote good community same time build a bad one like Kauri says:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I find it interesting that you are alluding to preferring the better community here, but then use terms like 'metermaids' and 'epeens'.

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@Nico, honestly that's your opinion but when you wanna do content with people like me, you better play well, if not sorry, not gonna sit there and wipe just because you wanna use your terms ''epeen, metermaids'' And by that I mean, you seem like one of those players who refuses to play as a team rather pulling your own strings and let a team down, simply because you refuse to do your job.
Just being honest here.

Yes, adding one is long overdue

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

It's funny how you wanna promote good community same time build a bad one like Kauri says:

@Nico, honestly that's your opinion but when you wanna do content with people like me, you better play well, if not sorry, not gonna sit there and wipe just because you wanna use your terms ''epeen, metermaids'' And by that I mean, you seem like one of those players who refuses to play as a team rather pulling your own strings and let a team down, simply because you refuse to do your job.
Just being honest here.

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Then allow me to be just as honest.

You have no data to support making assumptions on my level of play. My words here have no bearing on my performance in game.

I'm all for people pulling their weight. I do my best in whatever game I play. If you took the time to read the other posts I made following that which you quoted, you'd have learned I've used meters in the past in many games and understand how valuable a tool they can be in personal/group betterment. But, as I also mentioned before, not everyone uses them properly. Instead they use them to berate and belittle others or to needlessly prop up their own self-esteem. I may never have been on the receiving end of such treatment but I've seen it happen to others and I don't like it.

You can assume just because I don't like to see other people talked down to or made to feel bad because they may not be as good as you, that I'm a bad player, but you'd be largely mistaken. I'm certainly not the best but I do well enough at what ever role I choose to focus on to successfully clear the content I engage in with minimal to zero wipes. If I'm inclined to engage in progression/bleeding edge content, I'm the type of player you want on your team because I do everything I can to eek out as good a performance as possible. But that doesn't mean I have to be blind to the how people misuse tools like meters and the affects it has in online game communities over several decades.

Just because I'm jaded and cynical doesn't make me bad at the game and trying to shift focus from the topic at hand to how well I may or may not perform in a game is just childish. There's my honest reply.

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Originally Posted by Donaria

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This, 100% this.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I am not sure if you fully read my post. It made little sense because you said, "The closest thing to an official parser is already in game." SSS is not the 'closest thing to a parser' - so by that extension, I made the assumption that you were saying 'the closest thing [in the game] to a parser'. However, that may have been an incorrect assumption. In which case, your sentence makes sense, it is just incorrect.

To add on to the second part of your post. The devs have said mixed things regarding parsers, and I am unsure exactly their stance. To be honest, I feel this may have to do with meaning lost in translation of interviews and live letters. That said, even if the dev team is strongly opposed to a parser, if the majority of their user base wants one, it would probably be in their best business interests to oblige. I believe that is the entire purpose of this thread and the votes on the first page.

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Oh I fully read your post. "The closest thing to an official parser is already in game." means exactly what it means. Something that messures your dps output. Stop being obtuse. SSS is exactly that. Something you can do in game to find out if you have enough dps for a particular encounter.

As for the dev's stance: No they have not said mixed things. They do not want them. They turn a blind eye to them if you don't use them for harassment purposes. However, they will not ever officially endorse or code one in the game.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

That's not something you say to someone, unless you are genuinely concerned and you phrase it more respectfully. It's a very rude way of disagreeing with someone.

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Smart enough to pick up on that one, huh? That was the point.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

As for the dev's stance: No they have not said mixed things. They do not want them. They turn a blind eye to them if you don't use them for harassment purposes. However, they will not ever officially endorse or code one in the game.

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Well you are wrong. They said they would never make an official one but once add-ons are allowed there will be one. You guys can keep complaining all you want, you cant stop it.

PA: There’s been a lot a lot of discussion around add-ons, parsers, and whether they are allowed in game. Do you think there will be a time in the future where damage parsers and the like are sanctioned by Square Enix?

YoshiP: First of all, about add-on plans, I am sorry of the delay because of our work on the PlayStation 4 version, it delayed the initial plans we had in mind. You’ll definitely be able to change the skin of the interface, and on the technical side of things, if a technical person creates an add-on you’ll probably be able to pull some data which is send from the server to the client’s side.

Talking about tools to monitor DPS damage made by players: at the moment we have no plans to introduce an official tool because I do feel that if we introduce this tool, the players who are enjoying the DPS role but don’t necessarily have the player skill of other players I think it’s going to make them really uncomfortable in the game and in the party they might be blamed for the results. We don’t want encourage that. We’re not going to say we’re forbidding players to use that kind of tool if they make it, but I think that’s really up to the community and players for that decision. For example, with the World of Warcraft with DPS add-on, if players are not necessarily good enough, then you get that skeleton on top of their head, and I don’t think this is pleasant for players.

A personal one would be great....I liked the comment but I'm just gonna post here so maybe this topic is seen <.<

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Originally Posted by Laerune

This, 100% this.

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Sadly I can only like his post once. Sigh.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

A personal one would be great....I liked the comment but I'm just gonna post here so maybe this topic is seen <.<

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I'd be leery but would not be opposed to a personal (self only) one with no "announce to chat" features. The last thing I need is for my chat to spammed with measuring contests.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

snip.

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That's all well and good, but until they completely get rid of consoles as a device to play on (read ps3/ps4), you might as well kiss add-ons good bye.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Oh I fully read your post. "The closest thing to an official parser is already in game." means exactly what it means. Something that messures your dps output. Stop being obtuse. SSS is exactly that. Something you can do in game to find out if you have enough dps for a particular encounter.

As for the dev's stance: No they have not said mixed things. They do not want them. They turn a blind eye to them if you don't use them for harassment purposes. However, they will not ever officially endorse or code one in the game.

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You seem unnecessarily angry. I am sorry that I have provoked you.

SSS is not the closest thing to an official parser. I feel like that is a weird measure, as what does 'closest thing to an official parser' mean? I'd say the closest thing to an official parser would be an official parser. After that, it's fairly unclear what that would include. I'd argue that posting everyones numbers at the end of an encounter (like on PvP) is closer to a parser than SSS. I'd argue that having your numbers posted in SSS would be closer than current SSS. I'd argue that having the total hitpoints of the SSS dummy be displayed in-game would be cloesr to an official parser than current SSS.

I have read mixed responses on the matter of add-on support and parsers from various interviews.

At the risk of opening a lot of can of worms, I actually don't mind if harassment goes up if a parser gets released because of the fact it would mean many more reports of harassment and getting belligerent and disrespectful players out of the game. Just because a parser is in the game doesn't give anyone the right to belittle another player. The parser is there as a tool to assist players, not as a tool of harassment. Having an official parser doesn't suddenly making harassment via parser legal as well.

I'm okay if an initial influx of harassment occurs with parsing is cut at its root due to a large amount of reports followed with subsequent bannings.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

There's my honest reply.

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And I'm glad you are honest about it. My bad giving myself ideas how you are as a player, but don't get me wrong when I say this, but ''usually'' when people wrote down what you did, they usually give a rats ass about other players by still playing on a lower level without even trying. Now about the parser, I wish there was one on ps4/pc official, maybe a closed one so you can see your own dps and improve, that's what most people do and it helps alot. I made a few people start and it helps them alot. However what if some people don't wanna try get better? The problem will remain with or without parsers, the only good thing making one official is where people who are on consoles have a chance to use it, instead of asking a pc player all the time? Or simply because many are afraid using a parser and then they really wanna use one thats avaible?

As for people using it for the opposite purpose, talking people down, I do agree there, I've seen it happen and it still happens. I mentioned this as well and that's a big problem. I also stated there are peopel who are more than willing to get better but there are also people who simply tells you to ''fuck off'' because it's how they play and it suits them. Yes they have the right to play however they want, but if they are playing in groups, that sort of attitude doesn't help at all, and I've seen that much as those prics who call out bad dps looking at their parser, hell might even seen those bad people having a shit fit more than those prics calling out peoples numbers just to be an ass.

And my bad taking decision on what type of player you are or not.

Edit: Since you mentioned people feeling bad or not, yes I've met them and I also reached my hand out and helped them on rotation or ask people who know the class better than me. Most of the time people are willing to listen and care to try, which puts a smile on my face, but then I honestly have recived more people saying they don't need help and it fits the way they play. People wonder why they never get clears or simply no one wants to deal with them. Is that my responsible or other players to teach those players to get better? Not really, but can we help them out if they are more than willing to? yes of course, but then you have the issue of those who aren't, so even with a parser in game you will still have those people but there is a great and I know for sure there are alot of people who wants to have a parser to look at. I might be wrong, but most people I talked to really wants and those are ps4 players and pc players as well.

DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS
DPS DPS DPS DPS How's my parse? DPS DPS DPS DPS
DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

snip.

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There will never be official numbers posted. EVER. SSS tells you if you are doing enough dps to complete an encounter before enrage mechanics happen. Parsers - tell you what your dps is. You know what DPS stands for right? Damage Per Second? All they are doing is giving a numerical value to the exact same thing that SSS does.. just SSS doesn't show numbers. It just says "pass" or "fail." In the end, that's all you need.