This particular idea would not fly in XIV. The game world proper is tuned to be accessible to everyone which means it must be tuned to the lowest possible skill level which means, while you may find pockets of harder enemies, the overworld itself will never become this level of challenging. Also, if you take away peoples' mounts you will have riots, no two ways about it. As far as the 10 minute boat rides and no teleports.... this isn't XI. People need to stop trying to make this game something it isn't and learn to accept it for what it is.
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02-23-2016, 01:14 AMMalzian
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02-23-2016, 01:24 AMJhett_Magnum
In previous final fantasies I liked exploring and I do think more zones shouldn't have flying.
However, the ONLY reason I liked exploring in previous games is because the Battle theme didn't suck.
Can you honestly say you wouldn't explore more if you heard:
http://youtu.be/1_ePUEWEZRg
Rather than:
http://youtu.be/znTI2qEc1QA
It's because of this I don't care about exploring. Eorzea is just one big waiting lobby.
Also I think the boss themes are amazing and I even do fights just for the sake of music sometimes. -
02-23-2016, 01:33 AMDyvidIf i'm not mistaking, even FFXI moved away from that old concept. Before I quit in '07 we had access to outpost warps and chocobo whistle. I hear now you can instantly warp to home point like our aetheryte system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cwestcott18
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02-23-2016, 01:43 AMAsieridIt is almost if there is another game which caters to this method of thinking and could solve this very problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
What could this mysterious game be? -
02-23-2016, 03:13 AMMilesSaintboroguhFinal Fantasy XIII?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
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02-23-2016, 03:38 AMShurrikhanHallway, fight, hallway, fight, hallway fight! (XIV zones as they matter presently - dungeons)Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
...Pulse????! (What's being requested?) -
02-23-2016, 03:50 AMShurrikhanI can agree to some extent with all but this <bolded> bit here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malzian
Catering to the vast majority of a game's population does not mean it has to be left at a minimum level of difficulty or complexity. It just means that the game has to actually teach its players its own mechanics and methodologies. When such a huge gap exists, its commonly because the game has failed to exactly that. Yes, there are some really poor players who have trouble executing relatively simple things, but the majority of the seemingly fumbling ones simply haven't seen where they can or should improve unless another players steps in and tells them. Once thus instructed, along with the reasons why and the methods how, they usually improve quickly to normal levels. Leaving the difficulty bar beneath that level doesn't just kill a game for those with more skill or understanding than is necessary. It also kills it for those who no longer need to learn anything, perhaps even more so.
However, let's look at some zones where little if any teleporting is allowed already, or the teleports are unusefully grouped close together: Western Coerthas Highlands (you might as well take the stable port from Ishgard; the teleport barely even enters the zone), Diadem (you have return... and that's it), Sea of Clouds (both on the western borders of their respective areas, fairly close to each other), moglands (again, SW borders, close). Depending on where the ferry landing is located in the zone, prior to being flight-attuned these zones we already have may take longer to cross on foot/mount than this new one.
There's no point at which one should accept a game for exactly what it is. If that were the case, we'd never see design changes with expansions. It'd just be ARR, ARR 2, ARR 3. How long do you thing subs would last for in that model? The vast majority of development is centered on doing what has been established to work well, but the remainder can and frequently should attempt to draw those things in in new ways.
My issues with this are simply that I don't especially see the point of certain choices. Taking out flight should be enough to ensure that the zone could be experienced 'as intended'. Removing mounts just means that certain pathways you might want to experience probably ought to be shortened. Sometimes there's a certain rate at which you want to be turning down winding roads or through canyons for new visuals, which might actually be better mounted and slightly longer than doable only on foot. Removing that dynamic, by which at some times you might prefer to be mounted and other times not, seems like it could do more harm than good. (Just imagine if there was a world boss that loved the taste of chocobo, or certain other mounts. Suddenly you might not want to ride around in his zone on one. Similar case if there were bandits on the roads, but here mounts move a bit slower on all but roads.) That said, I'm all for general revisions to mounts that might require that they be left behind in certain situations (e.g. if we were actually able to climb ladders or whatnot, and the height were greater than a chocobo could jump, or if we didn't want to chance our mount dying when trying to ride through an enemy camp), only a single mount being taken with you (so that choice, through different mount abilities, might actually matter), etc.
Additionally, I don't think it needs to remain wholly "optional", in the sense of having no real value. It shouldn't be mandatory, but it should be decently lucrative. -
02-23-2016, 04:34 AMdinnertimeThe ARR battle theme, Heavensward battle them and the normal FATE theme gets so repetetive, too. There's no way to disable it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum
It was pretty neat that 1.0 had different battle themes for each region though. I don't know why the new composer didn't do the same. -
02-23-2016, 05:27 AMTeryaani
So, something akin to Timeless Isle in WoW? Or open world Diadem that doesn't have a group requirement (edit: or an instance time limit) ? Minus the grief-y bits of TI, that was pretty fun. It would have to have rewards of some form though. Minions or glamour or vanity toys would be nice.
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02-23-2016, 06:07 AMKitano123
If you dont want to use mounts then dont.
If you dont want to use ports then dont.
If you want to wait 15 minutes to go anywhere get a clock and time 15 minutes before you travel.
If you want a sense of "danger" go create it yourself.
Stop trying to force your crappy ideas on everyone else. You're viewing the world through rose-tinted glasses, MMO's and the people who play them have moved on. -
02-23-2016, 06:09 AMKaurieThis is incredibly unhelpful and doesn't address the desire listed by the OP or those that support the OP. I understand and respect you don't want this, please understand and respect some of us do want this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitano123
To clarify, OP isn't asking for every zone to lose mounts/teleports etc, just one zone. I don't even agree that those should be restricted, but I do agree that an end-game open world zone would be fun. -
02-23-2016, 06:16 AMWelsper59Indeed you can. Home Point crystals now serve as connecting warp points. They even added a ton all over the place, including dungeon-esque areas as a shortcut to PITA locations, like the BCNM areas. Additional warp functions were added to every zone alongside this. It's the best thing ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyvid
The thing about the OPs idea is the resources required to do it. The overall idea behind what is being proposed is essentially a culmination of all the stuff the main game tries to offer, but condensed (and less half-assed in some cases). The OP is envisioning some grandiose lore to be supported in the area. This takes time... it also takes away ideas from the other parts of the game that use lore. The zone would need to have reason to justify the time it takes to make it. If it's just a scenic thing with no real value behind it (gameplay wise), then not many will bother to utilize it. If, however, you add value to it... then it becomes a matter of "necessity". It's either a beautiful ghost town or just some pretty initial release Diadem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
The idea that people treat games today like they were a decade ago is unrealistic. It just won't happen when you cater to so many. Resources are a real concern. Time, money, and man-power are the primary components needed to make things. We have enough half-assed locations to do things as is, we don't need another. To anyone who might be offended by that comment, you have to keep in mind that it refers to a great many things, primarily execution. For example, Triple Triad was a great thing... then they decided to make things ridiculous to do and failed to comfort the playerbase with the concerns. Tournaments became win-trade central if you hoped to have a good time. Ignoring the card drop RNG complaints (which I personally think isn't a big deal), they decided to add more NPCs that have the much hated rules like Random and Chaos. Seriously devs?
Having mentioned win-trading... well let's see what else is permanently affected by that. Oh, everything that has competition to it. Wolves Den = win trade. Previously mentioned Triple Triad = win trade. LoV = win trade. Yup, all the potentially fun optional things have cheating to be a necessity to compete. Zero ****s given by SE on that one, since they strictly refuse to punish people who do it. Half assed? I'd say so. Need I go on about Diadem? The Hunt? Initial job balancing?
A new zone like what is being proposed is only good for the first go. After that, it has little to no lasting value by any given player. -
02-23-2016, 06:46 AMKaurieThat is a fair objection for sure. IMO much more fair than "if you don't want to teleport, don't". Well reasoned and thought out. I like to tthink these discussions allow us to poke holes in each others ideas and work together to fill in those holes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
As for your objections. I agree, that I don't think it necessarily needs new lore. However, the devs will be making new zones anyway, I'd like one of those to be end-game focused. In terms of reward, I do want there to be reward for being there, similar to daily quests found in other MMO's. This could simply be an alternate way to get the latest tomestones, or perhaps a way to farm gil. Diadem is not a very good comparison, or at least misses the mark of what i want significantly.
I completely agree, but recent MMO's have end-game open world stuff. It's not an ancient idea. Conversely, just because something was more popular 10 years ago doesn't mean it is unrealistic today. I agere time, money and man power are important, but the lack of non-raid stuff this game has that interests me (personally) is extremely small. With every passing interview and patch, I am leaning more and more towards moving to WoW. At this current pace, I will undoubtedly be unsubbing and resubbing to WoW when Legion drops. I'd rather the dev team put time, money and man power in to things like this than crafting, gathering, grindy relic quests, diadem, lov, sightseeing logs, scholasticate, gold saucer, sea stone sky, mentor program, hall of the novice, and pvp. Every one is different, but I don't really see why my desires should necessarily be considered less important than someone else's.
I think that the dev team implementing Diadem, Hunts in the (in my opinion) failure way that they did, is not due to low staffing. I think it's ultimately their initial design. They seem to focus on either adding overly complicated rules or encouraging the playerbase to keep subbed and don't focus on making the said content actually fun. Small adjustments to Diadem could make it significantly more fun, and it was obvious to me the second I entered it for the first time.
So anyway, on topic for this zone, i think that you make great points - certain aspects of it appear to be long-winded and will take way too much time. That said, I am sure there is a way it could be added that is fun and fulfills this niche while not taking up too much dev time. The question is more if the devs would be able to implement it in that way.
This seems to have been edited in since my response. I think the first-go shouldn't be ignored as wasted content. For example, the story is something we only experience once and then it's gone/done. There is a heck of a lot of development time that goes in to the story, and I think we can all agree that the story is great. Just because something is experienced for a limited amount of time does not mean that it is wasted resources.Quote:
A new zone like what is being proposed is only good for the first go. After that, it has little to no lasting value by any given player.
That said, i don't think the zone would need to be experienced once and done. Have continuous updates the monsters are upgraded to match the ilevel - or add in new fates/bosses/quests periodically. -
02-23-2016, 06:56 AMmirta000so you literally don't want to do anything but dailies? Then don't go to WoW. Go to Wildstar. The only end game content outside of raids is daily zones. They're now on what? 6 daily zones? I personally despise daily zones, so it's all good that this game doesn't have any.Quote:
I'd rather the dev team put time, money and man power in to things like this than crafting, gathering, grindy relic quests, diadem, lov, sightseeing logs, scholasticate, gold saucer, sea stone sky, mentor program, hall of the novice, and pvp.
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02-23-2016, 07:00 AMKauriePlease don't tell me where to spend my time. I don't tell others or you how to enjoy your leisure time.Quote:
Originally Posted by mirta000
I did state that I will likely go back to WoW on its next expansion. In terms of Wildstar, I'd play there, but I dislike all of their classes.
I am not sure why you're against other people enjoying content they enjoy. If you don't want to do the daily zone, just don't - just as if I don't want to craft then I don't.
I do want to do things other than dailies, I just find that FFXIV has done a poor job of implementing those things. I did find crafting, gathering and jumping puzzles fun in Guild Wars 2, for example. -
02-23-2016, 07:06 AMmirta000well great for you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaurie
But you see anything implemented directly affects ALL of us. Especially those of us that are mount, minion, achievement hunting, OR that are part of statics for example and would need to be capping the new tomestones as fast as possible. Meaning if you offer some new content, what the reward is going to be is important, what percentage of people would like it is important, how much of a must do and for what group of people is important.
For example anyone serious for 3.2 has to either have their crafters up, or know crafters. Because iLvl 220 and a progression shortcut. -
02-23-2016, 07:32 AMSendohJinFFXI has like 5 different ways to hop around from area to area. they'll just add new lore that will justify it.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
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02-23-2016, 08:32 AMAaliyahrose
A lot of the stuff that OP mentioned was in 1.0 anyway and then got removed once 1.25 was out (or rather was used/achieved very little) Although it would be nice, it would be considered a waste of time to the general community.
Also Yoshida usually mentions to look toward the future without losing sight of tradition. The game has already developed a tradition of FATES and more questing in 2.0-3.0. To remove flight from anywhere else in large exploration areas would be considered taking a step back from what players are already used to. -
02-23-2016, 10:33 AMDPZ2
I played MMOs back in the twenty-aughts, when everything was harder. If a game came out now that resembled WoW during BC, or EQ2, it wouldn't get a first look. I never played FFXI - and from what I read here, I wouldn't ever want to try it.
I do play games like TSW and SWTOR -- for the story. I play GW2 -- for the story. I played WoW for 7 years -- for the story. I gave up on EQ -- due to mechanics. I gave up on Wildstar - due to mechanics. I gave up on LOTR - due to mechanics (that and the gazillion continuous "kill orc" quests right after leaving the Mines of Moria).
I'd be all for a small area somewhere for the RP folks -- as long as it doesn't have any quests of consequence or rewards for glamour. Once you make it a 'hub' with daily quests and some form of reward it becomes a Chore That Must Be Endured. -
02-23-2016, 11:46 AMAzurymber
The end goal of what I'm suggesting is to simply make the world feel more realistic than it is.
Because right now, the world feels like an interactive waiting room.
I like ffxiv, but in all honesty it's becoming a repetitive clone, where new content is just rehashed old content, and where the overworld is just people running from place to place zerging easy prey mobs.
Consider that ffxi, a decade old game, has these massive intricate zones dedicated to beastman outposts, with caves, hidden passages, different routes, etc. And consider that FFXIV's beastman outposts are generally a corner of a map that was small to begin with. The FFXIV world doesn't "feel" massive. 3.0 remedied this to a degree with some huge zones, but the second flying is unlocked, traversing the zones takes all of 2 minutes.
And there aren't any zones in ffxiv that feel like you could actually die if you mess up.
I'm totally cool with the entire game being easy-moded, as it makes it a lot more appealing to casual gamers (and I'm fairly casual). But at the same time, the easy-moding and over-instancing drastically reduces the massive feel of the world. Instead if feels like an instanced RPG.
Even at launch, ESO and TOR were both -considerably- larger than FFXIV is.
And in both those games, some areas would feel dangerous to a degree.
Even hello kitty online had a more challenging open world when it was launched (completely serious)
Having an area that slightly ups the difficulty and makes the world feel like an actual world would provide a bit more depth to the game.
And the thing is that this was done in 1.0, which had open world "dungeons", and areas with mobs that could destroy you (kobolds and raptors in la noscea, the pathway to mog battle, etc).
What I'm asking for is -some- variety, as right now 3.0 feels no different than 2.0 did (aside from diadem which people only seem to use to gather now). And more importantly, variety that can't die because of duty finder death.
Wolves den, chocobo races, the first 2 iterations of frontlines, vermillion, the first 3 crystal towers, diadem dutyfinder, are all DEAD. Even if you want to do them, almost no one ever queues up.
How is implementing a consistent stream of content that literally dies after a month better than content that will both last forever, and will always be accessible? -
02-23-2016, 12:51 PMdinnertime
The current open world zones are also dead anyway even on the biggest servers such as Balmung because there's not much to do in them aside from gathering and there's little to none FATE parties that happen unless a relic grind says otherwise so I find it funny that people think this will be dead on arrival when what we have now is also the same.
I'm opposed to the OP's idea of the zone being too inconvenient to explore but it would be nice at least to have a very relevant but optional open world zone that's actually fun and captures and actual sense of exploration and adventure which people seem to be opposed about for some reason.
I think it would be a good change from the same-old instances we always get in every patch where the people you get from the DF would barely communicate because they would rather speed-run and leave the instance immediately than have a laid-back time playing with the party. Anybody else tired of that?
Mind you, Diadem is close but it's poorly implemented content, with lots of flaws that's still being ignored and it has a time limit plastered onto it.
Just this line alone makes it utterly pathetic how hospitable the 2.0 and 3.0 zones are, which is ironic since the Calamity had a lot of negative effects on Eorzea, so people would think the world would become more dangerous, but we get the complete opposite from 1.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
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02-23-2016, 12:57 PMsilentwindfri stop you there, yes at launch they had some area that was dangerous, because it was launch character was not full level or well equiped for face this sort of threat now.... you can breath throught it and strangely it's what you do... and more important this two game too have teleportation that can be overused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
what you want is not danger but a walking simulation, it's nice the 2-3 times but after it become more a bother than anything since you will spend more time to travel than actually play! because even in FF11 it was possible to cross the whole world without fight... the point? none exept increase the life artificially of the game.
the content don't die, it's not because you have no interest into it that it is dead. FF14 have a major pool of content, simply people don't care for it that all. but a new player that want a skin or simply experience this content will do it. make the traveling in the world longer or artificially harder (yeah i talk of you gobelin level 99 of the V1 don't ignore me) will not help to do what you think more drive people away.
the calamity did hit as hard the beast and danger of Eorzea than the city. a lot of area was simply destroyed and creature did disappear in this calamity or some area are simply un reachable like the spirit forest filled with treant.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
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02-23-2016, 01:08 PMMelondraThis area was know as SEA aka "The Garden of Antiquty" you need Chains of Promitha Chapter 8-1 in order to aces it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velthice
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02-25-2016, 01:41 PMShurrikhanCould you define what you mean by "directly" then? Every 'rule' or 'mechanical' change suggested for this area has been limited to the area alone. Nor are any of the 'changes' actually new, or even changes. The mount-less rule, for instance, is no different from in every city in game already. The only way this would affect you is if the daily quests could be perfected as to be the quickest form of tomestone gathering. This is unlikely unless they make use of optimal 8-mans. Although "daily", quests are not going to be competitive with the daily dungeon roulettes, if only because they are multiple, and the relevant roulettes are one or two at most. But more importantly, why would this be an issue? Is there something so wrong with a form of currency gathering that may be faster done in the open world than in a dungeon (the only alternative aside from hunts)? The only thing I can think of is when your raid team requires you to cap tomestones immediately after reset for that extra push of gear, which this would merely exchange repeating the same optimal highest ilvl dungeon spam for after the initial roulette bonus. Is that such a loss?Quote:
Originally Posted by mirta000
I'll admit. I'm not a fan of any daily zones I've yet seen. I have, however, enjoyed certain daily quests or quest systems. But consider: I'm also not a fan of the how exploration is typically done in MMOs, and yet it's frequently my favorite part in any of them. The model can be improved on, even if a large part of that may be by scrapping the idea of what a daily zone is completely, and replacing it with something that simply fits a similar function, which is to say an enjoyable open-world time sink. And for a genre that is almost definable as being a time sink, for better or worse, that's not saying much. It can have its own progression. It can have its own PvP. It can have anything it wants. It need only be fun. The reason so many daily zones fail is because they were never crafted to be daily zones; they were merely leveling hub-zones for which certain quests were made repeatable and perhaps level-scaling, largely as a way to stimulate and inflate the economy for crafters and their consumers.
Side-note: even so much as calling it a daily zone has been us thread-taggers speculations as to necessary design/compromise. The OP listed it only as a zone with certain old-school sensibilities and entirely intrinsically enjoyable qualities. -
02-25-2016, 04:29 PMTaleraRistain
You've just described early EverQuest. However, even EQ had to change because players just don't want mechanics like that. Those mechanics also make the game a lot less accessible, leading to lower subscriber numbers.
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02-25-2016, 05:46 PMAzurymberyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaleraRistain
hence why i said one optional end-game area
and not re-doing the entire game
So nothing in the game gets changed.
Just one area gets added, that is -not- required
You can just go do some open world content that isn't hunts or fates, and fight some things that don't die in one combo (kind of like when ppl solo snowcloak difficulty) -
02-25-2016, 06:57 PMJudah_Brandt
So you'd like a glorified theme park inside of a theme park MMORPG that caters to one very specific group of players allowing them to have a place where they hold majority against the rest of the community? You'd like this giant resource of a zone because it would be nice to hang out on a beach without being harassed or something? I hate to disapprove of your idea so vehemently but RP Jurassic Park is a poor use of resources. We all ready have so much content in the game that people dump on.
There are so many functions in the game that can be pointed to which fill a niche, only to be disliked by the majority for sake of convenience. Would Lords of Verminion be more popular if you could queue for it through Duty Finder? How about Chocobo Racing? How about Triple Triad? They're just getting around to implementing a large PVP system. What percent of players in FFXIV utilize the PVP modes?
Here's an idea, go to Azys Lla and equip i50 gear. How many hits does it take to die from a Clockwork bit now? Difficulty can be artificially altered, any idea to implement something will eventually be surpassed and made irrelevant. It's how the MMORPG treadmill works. Gimmick content without reasonable longevity or sense to it is literally a waste of assets. No one is stopping you from playing the game how you want to, but requesting yet another niche feature and trying to justify it is something I can't fathomably agree is a good idea. -
02-25-2016, 07:09 PMKurogaea
I like the idea. No reason to not have it if it's OPTIONAL. I say it like that because people don't seem to get what that word means nowadays. :/
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02-25-2016, 08:07 PMDefias
Honestly. I wouldn't care if it was implemented. I personally would never go there.
My issue is...that knowing companies now a days...they will tie something to it in order to justify the funds expended to make it.
Which would probably force me to go there.
As the majority of the player base would ask:
"What do I get for going there & enduring such a zone?"
"Why go there if I get nothing?"
Also developing such content would take away from other things they should be working on.
That said...FFXIV is not a survival horror MMO like FFXI was so I feel like it would go against the game's look and feel.
But I feel everyone should have something they enjoy.
But the dev team has a tendency to create things and bait/force us into them and/or make what should be simple (Glamour, Chocobo Racing) and make it tedious/complicated. -
02-25-2016, 08:22 PMKurogaeaYou'd rather have your hand held then to adventure out on your own? Think I'm starting to see what this game is apparently catering to :/Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyAreku
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02-25-2016, 08:54 PMKerwin
Back in version 1.0 we had these zones all the time with limited teleports with what use to be called "Anima". One teleport took 8 anima out of 100, and you refreshed 1 every 6 hours or so. It really made you think when you REALLY needed a teleport vs. I can chocobo that distance.
But I like the idea of venues with danger and restriction on traveling. But I don't want to make it impossible to traverse. XI had means to solo and sneak past with spells, while XIV has no such things. A balance has to be made. But I like OP's idea. -
02-25-2016, 08:57 PMAryalandi
As long as it has goblins that will chase me mercilessly from one zone line to the other end of the area before attacking the very next person they see instead of despawning and going back to their starting point I'm in, Iroha can teach the samurai job there.
I do also miss several minute boat rides hiding from the sea horror and watching for undead pirate ships while listening to seagulls and getting to see whales surface next to the boat, it made the world feel so alive... except for the pirates, they are too skeletal to feel alive.
nostalgia... <3 *sighs dreamily* -
02-25-2016, 08:59 PMKerwinBack to Valkrum Dunes with you! xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Aryalandi
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02-25-2016, 09:10 PMAryalandiLmao i love the feeling of being understood.. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Kerwin