To all the people complaining about DPSing in an off role

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but I certainly don't have fun taking 30+ mins to finish a simple dungeon when I can be finishing my 2nd run in 15-18 min dungeon runs or be doing something else.

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The difference between healer dps and healer not dps is between 15 and 17 min, tops, not 30.

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Originally Posted by SchalaZeal

The difference between healer dps and healer not dps is between 15 and 17 min, tops, not 30.

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Without a healer doing dps, 15-20 mins. With him dpsing, 10 mins. At least, Neverreap and Fractal.

Arboreum has retarded gates with mobs which spawn after you down combs.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

Anyway, WHM has dps skills so they can do solo content in the open world, seriously you think a WHM can just stand there and heal its self till the mob just drops dead from exhaustion? This mmo is not built for tanks and healers to throw down dps all the freaken time.

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I HIIIIGHLY disagree with this particular statement. White Mage...this game (and I think franchise as well) star healer...this class IS the HEALER and it has plenty of tools to deal damage.

~If the devs didn't want me to dps why give Stone 3 such a high dmg potency with no other flash to it? It's just pure potency.
~If the devs didn't want me to dps why give me such powerful dots (damage over time skills) such as Aero 3-2?
~If the devs didn't want me to dps why give us such an over powered aoe ability such as Holy? And don't even get me started on how insane Assize is on aoe (even on single target)
~If the devs didn't want me to dps why give us cleric stance? Open world content can have parties and this game spawns custom monsters for you to spawn for half these quests. Same thing for solo content just scale the monster hp down for healers or give us npcs to heal instead
~If the devs only meant for healers to just heal then why does nearly everything in this game deal patethic damage? Why does Void Ark need 6 healers? Our healing spells are powerful let us use them without the healers carrying each other/stepping on each others toes.
~If the devs only meant for healers to just heal then where is our aoe dispel? Seriously a healer that doesn't have an aoe dispel.

Now I know what you're going to say: "if you want to dps so much just roll a dps". Here's the thing though I don't want to dps I want to heal, but with this game giving me so little supporting abilities and so many damaging (and powerful) abilites, it's just what I'll naturally do when my team isn't in need of healing. I want to help my team anyway I can and sitting around waiting for damage to happen to more than just our main tank in a 24 man raid, for example, is just not my way of playing.

Also about your statement on WHMs healing until mobs drop dead? That's exactly what I did on my solo story quest missions. I just let the npcs kill and i healed them which I think was the point since it was really difficult to finish when they die, but then again I could've just been bad...whm was my first 60 after all :P

We might as well just break the trinity because it seems people want to do everything at once.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

We might as well just break the trinity because it seems people want to do everything at once.

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Why not? The Trinity is archaic and already heading out the door in newer MMOs. If we threw it away, we could have far more creative jobs and fights. Why should Tanks be brick walls who get punched and that's it? Why should Healers just manage health bars? Why should DPS only exist to poke things? Lets have more utility and break down the archaic concept of Tank/Healer/DPS, then we can have Supportive jobs like Red Mage without gimping them like Bard and Machinist.

I dunno, it reminds me of my days in FF7 and FF8 where I made everyone play exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

Why not? The Trinity is archaic and already heading out the door in newer MMOs. If we threw it away, we could have far more creative jobs and fights. Why should Tanks be brick walls who get punched and that's it? Why should Healers just manage health bars? Why should DPS only exist to poke things? Lets have more utility and break down the archaic concept of Tank/Healer/DPS, then we can have Supportive jobs like Red Mage without gimping them like Bard and Machinist.

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I'm all for breaking the trinity but what we have now isn't breaking the trinity. All the classes are basically becoming almost the same thing now. Healers are just DPS that do less damage and have healing capabilities. Tanks are DPS that have more HP and do a bit less damage than traditional DPS. That's boring as heck IMO. I want to feel like I'm fulfilling a completely different role in the party and am contributing in some kind of unique way when I go into dungeons.

This thread and the mentality it pushes is the prime example of why healers and tanks are becoming angry at the community.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

I'm all for breaking the trinity but what we have now isn't breaking the trinity. All the classes are basically becoming almost the same thing now. Healers are just DPS that do less damage and have healing capabilities. Tanks are DPS that have more HP and do a bit less damage than traditional DPS. That's boring as heck IMO. I want to feel like I'm fulfilling a completely different role in the party and am contributing in some kind of unique way when I go into dungeons.

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Expect DMG cooldowns for healers on 4.0
WHMs have one already, Presence of Mind: a beautiful skill with barely any need of use on normal content that you will most pop when you want to deal damage, because y'know, we're DPS healers.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

I want to feel like I'm fulfilling a completely different role in the party and am contributing in some kind of unique way when I go into dungeons.

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Well, nobody will be happy because FF 14 isn't about that. All they're doing right now is suggesting an unspecified change to the Tank Damage Formula. They might just destroy the ability for anyone not named DPS to do damage to fit the casual audience who doesn't want to do anything but their role title. I wish every job was unique, instead they all feel pretty samey. The game needs a serious overhaul in 4.0, I say 4.0 because there is no way they can overhaul it before then and I doubt they will. Yoshida already said 4.0 will be smaller than 3.0

I mean really, people are against the idea of doing anything that is not healing or tanking if they're playing a Healer or Tank. Some of us aren't against it, but a lot of these posts read like they want to do nothing but take as little damage as possible or keep the team as healthy as possible. It sounds lazy to me, but to them, that's their ideal fantasy. It's a huge clash of ideals and Yoshida isn't exactly helping by constantly giving me additional damage spells and then taking away my Accuracy, like why do I have Assize's 300 potency and Stone III's insane potency if I'm not suppose to DPS? Healing in this game is BORING, there is nothing to do and it'd take an overhaul.

Healing as WHM just turns into maintaining HoTs and keeping the tank alive and shielding him with stoneskin if needed. Nothing about healing is challenging because so few spells in my so-called Healer kit are about HEALING.

Last I checked healers wer still complaining about no accuracy on gear.

Also right side tank gear has no str last I checked gimi a min....... Nope no str on a tank ring just vit and other secondarys.

Also didn't they say that they didn't design the new raids at all with healer dps?

The whole more dps meta is nothing but a byproduct of people trying to get Alex savage world first when you were meant to gear slowly.

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Originally Posted by Mog77

This thread and the mentality it pushes is the prime example of why healers and tanks are becoming angry at the community.

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and why there are such long qu times for stuff lol.

At lest for dps.

Then the problem goes how would they even balance the if the trinity was broken. How do you balance something where every one can tank heal and push high dps. All I see is less interesting fights. I'm not even going to go into how duty finder random party's would be broken.

I think the issue of people wanting jobs to do their job is that they have a colourful sticker telling them what their job is. In 1.0 WAR could dps or tank based on their gear setup and cross class skills, they weren't shoehorned into the tank role. And before jobs were even a thing ANY class could be a tank dps or healer if they setup their skills right, though they were better suited to certain roles, like GLA was mainly a tank. But there was nothing saying you ARE this job like in ARR. even in ARR beta the stickers weren't a thing until they added the duty finder, I took a lnc as my tank for tam Tara in beta because there was nothing that said gla is the only tank.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

snip.

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Wrong in 1.0 WAR was pretty much forced to tank because unlike in 3.0 despite peoples complaining PLD couldn't hold hate in 1.0.

tanks and healers become excruciating to play in any sort of solo content when they have no dps stance or passable dps in pretty much any game.

I also feel the complaints about healers 'having to dps' are mostly done by players who will never enter fights where their dps as a healer is ever required to be successful. Cleric Stance, Fluid Aura, Dots, HOLY all scream to me that devs have ALWAYS wanted healers to do at least some DPS.

I enjoy DPSing as WHM, but until they put more accuracy on our gear or give us food good enough to get us anywhere remotely near the cap, nobody should be relying on healer DPS. There have been plenty of times when my raid group was pushing a DPS check and I watched three or four Stone IIIs miss in a row where one would have been enough to push us to where we needed to be. I feel like I'm just throwing my MP away half the time. Hell, I'd be happy with a long cooldown ability that buffed my accuracy for ONE spell. That'd be good for need-to-hit situations.

[QUOTE=SargentToughie;3443276]That's not true at all.

This game has practically zero solo content.


What game are you playing? Most of the game is solo. Quests, leves, fates, leveling, far out number the group content.

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Originally Posted by Mandze

I enjoy DPSing as WHM, but until they put more accuracy on our gear or give us food good enough to get us anywhere remotely near the cap, nobody should be relying on healer DPS. There have been plenty of times when my raid group was pushing a DPS check and I watched three or four Stone IIIs miss in a row where one would have been enough to push us to where we needed to be. I feel like I'm just throwing my MP away half the time. Hell, I'd be happy with a long cooldown ability that buffed my accuracy for ONE spell. That'd be good for need-to-hit situations.

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Put a bard in your group, embrace the bard, love the "Rain of Death"!

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

I also feel the complaints about healers 'having to dps' are mostly done by players who will never enter fights where their dps as a healer is ever required to be successful. Cleric Stance, Fluid Aura, Dots, HOLY all scream to me that devs have ALWAYS wanted healers to do at least some DPS.

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Thats 100% right Alex. Problem is, people are expecting alex savage performance in duty roulette, a place where we all know not to expect much of anything. The meta has gone from raiding to leveling dungeons.

I love how rather than actually read the OP and start actual discussion or anything remotely relevant to the topic at hand, several people have opted to instead play semantics and proclaim the MAJORITY of an MMORPG is Solo content. Let me tell you, kiddos. The majority of FFXIV is group content. Trials/Dungeons/Guildhests/FATEs/Raids/PVP, all that. You know the stuff you actually do in this game? If you're going to keep playing semantics with the paper thin solo content in this game, be my guest. It just shows you're not reading the OP.

You keep talking like the OP is speaking of forcing people to DPS as a Tank or Healer, he's not. He's talking about Tanks and Healers who are great at their job are able to DPS in their downtime or indeed DPS full-time without hurting their team as a sign of Mastery of the job.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe YOU are the one doing it wrong?

[...]

TL;DR: Tanks and Healers who DPS are core to FF14, and are here to stay. There are many of us that like it this way, please stop complaining about it now?

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yes, i did consider it. and i hate it. so i will complain. there are many of us that like to play a healing type of healer and a tanking type of tank, so please stop complaining about it now o.o/

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Originally Posted by Ultima

I love how rather than actually read the OP and start actual discussion or anything remotely relevant to the topic at hand, several people have opted to instead play semantics and proclaim the MAJORITY of an MMORPG is Solo content. Let me tell you, kiddos. The majority of FFXIV is group content. Trials/Dungeons/Guildhests/FATEs/Raids/PVP, all that. You know the stuff you actually do in this game? If you're going to keep playing semantics with the paper thin solo content in this game, be my guest. It just shows you're not reading the OP.

You keep talking like the OP is speaking of forcing people to DPS as a Tank or Healer, he's not. He's talking about Tanks and Healers who are great at their job are able to DPS in their downtime or indeed DPS full-time without hurting their team as a sign of Mastery of the job.

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Dude, did you read any of the thread? He wants people to stop complaining because they don't want to play the way he wants them to.

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Originally Posted by Shug

Dude, did you read any of the thread? He wants people to stop complaining because they don't want to play the way he wants them to.

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He politely said "please" and tried to say why maybe the people complaining about DPSing are wrong. You don't have to agree with him, but you have to at least understand what he's saying and then offer an actual counterpoint instead of spouting off "Solo Content" and the raid mentality. Square Enix caused this situation, yelling in the wind because someone likes the DPS meta isn't going to fix a thing. We can behave like adults and have a civil discussion.

Alternatively, if people don't like how the game plays, they can quit?

Yoshida: For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.


End of discussion.

Okay? You know Yoshida is not actually perfect, he's been wrong in the past and he can say he set the development to not include Healer dps. That doesn't mean we should just leave free damage on the table, we all want to clear the content faster and more efficiently. If you don't like it, form your own parties and don't run with people who want to play the game more effectively. We shouldn't be encouraging people to ignore half of their skills just because their role is "Healer", okay? That's not okay, that's lazy. If you want to enforce this meta of not mastering your job, please kindly ask Yoshida to remove Cleric Stance and DPS Stances from being effective in 4-man content or otherwise, then you'll have your wish.

And then watch the game die when Savage becomes so braindead simple without an overhaul of both player and AI mechanics. People keep asking for the removal of DPS checks and don't realize what that would do to the game.


But if you're just quoting Yoshida to justify not playing your job at it's optimal level, then that's okay too, that's just like your opinion, but don't act like we're evil people for playing the game at a more masterful level than you would like. We got the message now, we won't DF anymore, we'll just play with our FC/LS/Friends and never run with the community, because we're asking too much of them, sorry for asking people to improve at a video game, so sorry.

this game actually has a class trinity. i choosed to play this game especially because i wanted to heal. if i wanted to DPS i would play a DPS role. but they messed up the trinity by making the tanks and healer waaaay to powerfull. that's why we "have" to dps now, because we have nothing else to do. i don't like this v.v/

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Originally Posted by Ultima

but don't act like we're evil people for playing the game at a more masterful level than you would like.

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Is it just me or does this come off as way too snobby for a video game?

The real discussion isn't about not wanting to DPS it's about how the game is designed soley around DPS, alot of people would rather a healers most efficient course of action be to heal, assist mitigation, crowd control all that sort of "Controly" stuff that comes with being a traditional healer. Not just slap a few cure spells and be another DPS. Likewise with Tanks alot of people want to be able to focus on tanking and mitigation, threat control and that be playing the job to it's pinacle even when pushing as much DPS as they can.

People want the roles to highlight the spirit of the roll not just a meatier DPS and Healy DPS.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

The earliest example I can cite is Metroid, which gave you special endings based off of how fast you could complete the game.

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The game has less than 2 hours of playtime. Of course they had something to increase its lifetime, else it would not have been the success it was. Every Metroid game is a race. You don't go in a metroid game expecting challenging platform gameplay or strategy vs bosses.

This, however, has nothing to do with a MMO, or FFxiv in particular.

The game is designed around the Trinity, and advertized as such. DPS, Healer and Tank. (well, originally it was support and healers were part of the supports, but meh, no supports in FFxiv)

And look at it now. Tanks are dps with extra HP, and close to no tanking options. Where are the crowd control possibilities ? The Iron Wall feeling of a tank ? What am I, as a warrior, if not a glorified dps ? Cause I sure don't feel like a tank. Just a blue-colored dps.
Healers are also dps, with a few heals to throw here and there (but HoTs and the fairy do all the work anyway in most cases). where is the party support via buffs (or enemy debuffs). Only AST has some party buffs.


The problem is that FFxiv is a trinity MMO, yet not a trinity MMO. The game is hesitating between a trinity-wannabe (easier to understand the builds as they are strictly enforced. Tanks are not here to do damage but to take hits. Healers are here to heal and that's it. DPS are here to wreck shit) and a korean-wannabe (everyone wrecks everything and sometimes does something out of dps-ing).

It's time to decide what you want to be, game.

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Originally Posted by Kassiekane

In T5, surviving tank busters require the aid of multiple party members. White Mages stoneskin'd, scholars barrier-healed + virus + preemptive E4E, or if it was on CD, a caster would use it, also tanks needed to place their attack debuffs on the boss as well, then the tank that eats it receives a shitload of healing. This is the meta we all miss. When this was relevant content, tanks were more worried about getting destroyed by Death Sentence than their epic deeps. And healers had plenty of things to do. Also, mechanics.

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This right here, I'm a Tank and truthfully find Alexander terribly boring. Compared to Death Sentence and all of everything in T9 it's fights are lack luster on the mitigation end. It feels as though you're left with nothing better to do than DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

He politely said "please" and tried to say why maybe the people complaining about DPSing are wrong.

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Adding please to your argument, doesn't automatically make it a valid one.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

Alternatively, if people don't like how the game plays, they can quit?

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Firstly, that's kind of cute coming from someone who, in this very thread, said they were planning to quit soon. Secondly, this is not how the game plays. The game flat out allows healers to just heal, DPS to just DPS and tanks to just tank. The few pieces of content which make this difficult are at the absolute top-tier, and have even then been made largely redundant thanks to the introduction of Diadem.

So I say, let people play however they want without throwing down the hammer of judgement. If someone plays poorly, people will avoid them. If they can at least do their job, I doubt anyone will notice, or care. If they're exceptional, they'll be recognized. Doesn't matter if you're a DPS, a tank or a healer as long as the team works.

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Originally Posted by SargentToughie

... The gold saucer?

Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that the entire endgame of FF14 is group content.

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The problem with your argument is the idea that end-game actually represents a significant majority of players. Personally, I don't believe this is the case. You asked about solo content, were given an answer and promptly dismissed it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Doot Doot

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What can I say? I'd like to quit because this game only comes in two flavors. "Expert Roulette" which is actually about DPS auto attacking everything while the tank does all the work and the healer is watching netflix and Current Hardcore Raid which is being created for less than 1% of the playerbase. Yoshida isn't going to improve the game for people who want midcore content and it's been the same damn easy content and obsoleting it with something stupid like Diadem every patch. Like I said, I'm quitting soon, I only stuck around because a few friends still wanted to play, but we're finally ready to move on because we can tell that Yoshida doesn't want to improve the game, he just wants to ride it easy.

So, go on. Tell me how 3.2 is going to save the game and the game will just keep getting better, people have been saying that a lot in the last 5+ months and I'm not seeing it, they just decided to make Instanced Hunts - I mean Diadem as the star of 3.1, the content they hyped up since pre-3.0 and it's toxic and boring and riddled with issues that Yoshida could've noticed if he actually paid attention to his OWN GAME AND COMMUNITY.

I am going to say this straight to the point......If you are doing Savage and you consider yourself some form of Elitist Raider, then min/max your job all you want to clear such content, But understand that a vast majority, somewhere like 80-90% of the population fall under the catagory of a Midcore or Casual Player. During the last live letter Yoshi clearly stated that they were surprised on how very little people have cleared Savage Alex and there is a reason for that. Most players that come unto FF14 are coming from games like WoW, SWTOR, or others that have healers and tanks focused on one thing-tanking or healing, not dpsing. Saying that these people are wrong because they think a tank should focus more on staying alive than dpsing, they are not wrong....you are! Now, if such player wants to tune his gear based on content based on the need of his static....then that is his prerogative....not yours. Savage and Extremes are designed to appease the hard core raiders, not the casual or midcore like myself.Play your job anyway you want, if you are in a static and they wont run with you unless you are geared a certain way then that is their right, but at no time in a pug or roulette should your elitist altitude come into play when chastising or disrespecting other players. If you are one of these losers, do your self a favor and dont ever do content outside your static. Not only will you make yourself look like a a piece of foobar, but you will also show how much of a loser your are thinking that people should only play this game like you tell them too.

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Originally Posted by Ultima

snippity

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Thordan ex is said to be midcore. And I would guess that mass pulling in Diadem Hard would offer some kind of challenge as well. Have you tried those flavours?

ITT:
People who don't really do savage, complaining about healers/tanks having to DPS even though the only content they HAVE to do DPS in is savage.
Seriously, in 95% of the content healers/tanks can just...heal and tank. If things aren't dying fast enough its generally because of the dragoon doing sub 600 DPS and the bard that's just spamming heavy shot with int accessories.

Healers and tanks are only required to do DPS in savage, and that's how it should be.

As for those in savage that don't want to DPS anymore and want to heal. The only way for them to change it up, is to make raids do consistently high damage i.e the bosses auto attacks are not mitigated by a regen, rather than having mediocre damage then OH LOOK HUGE TANK BUSTER. This would mean healers would have to constantly heal, and tanks would need high HP to give them more room to AoE heal the group when needed so the tank doesn't die while attending to another party member. However with the way MP regen works in this game I just don't think this is even a viable option unless they shorten the fights/adjust the MP costs. Also, they'd need to fix the ever loving crap out of parry.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Doot

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I'm from Balmung, the most populated server in the entire game and no PF I've ever been in has been able to do Thordan EX or any easier EX primal without enlisting the aid of Hardcore players, even Odin's trial has been deemed too hard for players of PF. I'm asking for something harder than EXR which is mindless and simple because it's made for people who aren't playing their main job (for some reason), but not something as hard as Savage or Extreme that is only for the Hardcores, we use to have this in our Hard Mode Primals.

Diadem Hard Mode is also only for the minority that has a big FC with a house and workshop, and pulling big packs is not a challenge.

The challenge I am asking for, is for the Midcore players, those who want to form up with randoms of decent skill and clear content, not hardcore Static content.

We need midcore dungeons, don't say those don't work because Pharos. Pharos did not work because it was put in the same roulette as easy dungeons, we need a new roulette for harder dungeons or just don't put them in DF, let them be only in PF.

TBH, I think people are missing the point completely. The game is designed in such a way that healers and tanks have become psuedo DPSes. We should be petitioning SE to move away from this model. As a healer, I want to be heal/ support. Right now I am forced into a DPS sub role. There is a fundamental problem in how the classes have been designed. If I wanted to spend most of my time attacking monsters, I'd have rolled a DPS class from the get go. I decided that I liked being a HEALER and being a healer meant to me, and I'm sure many others, that I'd be 1) keeping my party alive and 2) contributing by buffing the party (or debuffing enemies) during slow times. As healers are designed now, we have BARELY any support skills (aside from AST and barely anyone brings AST to raids for various reasons). Healing would be a much more interesting role to play if healers could have more buff/ debuff CDs to play with.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

ITT:
words

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Thank you.

I feel like I made my point in the OP of this thread pretty poorly, and as such it exploded into the rage pit that you see before you today. Am I going to say that Tanks/Healers *must* DPS in the duty finder content like EXR? No, absolutely not. However, I've seen dozens upon dozens of posts over the last few weeks in here that legitimately just repeat over and over again that they hate DPSing healers and tanks, and they want this game to be changed to accommodate what they want. The only intent of my post was to go into detail about why this game is not designed for those types of players, and instead encourages those that DPS during their off roles.

Let it also be known that I've never once flamed a healer for not DPSing, or told a healer that they NEEDED to DPS. I'm just saying that if you want to play this game, and your role to the highest level, that's the only way to do it. It doesn't mean that you NEED to, it doesn't mean I'm going to bitch and moan at you in DF if you don't, it just means that you'll never play your job to it's max potential. This thread was never meant to defend the god awful current savage tuning, and it was never meant to blow up into... this. I guess it makes sense though, people have every right to be upset that the game isn't designed for them.

While I apologize for poor phrasing, I won't apologize for what was said, and I stand by my point.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

snip.

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The real problem lies in the fact that some people thought it would be a good idea for every class to be able to do everything solo.

Thus they had to give good dps skills to healers and tanks, or else they wouldn't be able to solo anything. Similarily, the open world is stupidly boring because nothing can be dangerous (dps peeps must be able to solo things, right ?).


The state of the game originates from this stupid idea that people should play alone in a MMO.