Shields & Parrying in 1.19

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bayohne

Sorry for taking so long to get a response to you all about this. This isn't actually a bug, as with the changes made in patch 1.19, you can only focus on blocking when you have a shield equipped and will be unable to parry.

---

So its not a bug, its design flaw....

I ran with my group yesterday the DMZ and saw my tank block shit left and right.

We hear you guys on the block rate and we'll look into making adjustments based upon your feedback - so please keep it coming!

This post has a Japanese rep response saying that DEX is the stat that governs block rate, but I've seen some tests showing that STR is what raises it. Has anyone been trying DEX materia/gear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

This post has a Japanese rep response saying that DEX is the stat that governs block rate, but I've seen some tests showing that STR is what raises it. Has anyone been trying DEX materia/gear?

---

If that is true, then SE needs to fix this page

Bayohne posted in another thread that dex does increase block rate

Please Bayohne, appeal to the dev team about both:

1) The infrequency of gladiator blocks on high lvl opponents. I can understand that blocks may have been a little overpowered as they were before, as Deflection and Aegis Boon made gladiators a little better than invincible against regular attacks for almost 40 seconds, even against tough opponents like Batraal. However, the block rate being as high as it was is balanced by the fact that no special attacks can be blocked. As it is now, Even if I pop ambidexterity I am lucky to get a single partial block against Ifrit. That sucks.

2) The inability for gladiators to parry. Just because you have a shield doesnt mean its all you rely on, especially if you arent the "stabbing" type of fighter. Its perfectly reasonable to imagine a gladiator using his shield to block strikes approaching from the left, and his sword to parry strikes approaching from the right. This also negatively impacts one of the best components of the game, the armoury system and the use of cross-class skills. Foresight and Featherfoot could previously be skillfully used to bridge the gap when shield skills were unavailable, making an experienced gladiator with quick reactions almost impervious to normal attacks. Again, this isnt really balance-breaking because shields do not affect special attacks.

As a tank facing ever-increasing difficulty, its a hard pill to swallow when you have to un-learn these tricks of the trade. We want our tricks back!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

If that is true, then SE needs to fix this page

---

They do need to update that page. It still says MND gives bonus MP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bayohne

We hear you guys on the block rate and we'll look into making adjustments based upon your feedback - so please keep it coming!

---

I am truly Glad (see what I did there) that the dev team will be looking into this. However, don't forget that improving shield blocking mechanics and giving us parry are only one side of the ballance equation. Mrd still outperforms us 2:1, even if that issue is fixed. The still do awesome damage, and still have awesome enmity potential (particularly in the area of AoE tanking). So even with really good mitigation skills, if Mrd can do great dmg and keep the mages safe, then Mrd is still the better choice overall. So please look into this so that Gla can have good defense skills and great enmity/AoE enmity skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

If that is true, then SE needs to fix this page

---

That page was last updated in 2010. It mentions bonus points and physical levels. Of course it's out of date.

Just to make a point to my LS, I decided to remove my shield for one of our runs at Ifrit and instead tanked him with just a sword. There are obviously enough factors that make it hard to compare one run to another, but the healer couldn't tell the difference between the two fights.

The ability to now use foresight also meant that I counted more parries during the run than shield blocks prior. In all fairness, My chat log couldn't display the entire fight and I could've missed some during the fight, but my main point is still there...

At least on harder mobs, the shield makes nearly no difference whatsoever. It's practically pointless now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alderton

At least on harder mobs, the shield makes nearly no difference whatsoever. It's practically pointless now.

---

I use a shield for one reason

Its one more spot to add:

Bloodthirst
lifethirst
bloodwall
fire veil
ice veil
water veil
wind veil
lightening veil
earth veil

Some people in my LS wanted to kill Uraeus so I could make some tricornes for them last night. I only tanked the first boss in Dzemael since 1.19 and since he never used normal attacks so much I didn't notice a big difference. But last night, in 3 fights, I blocked a SINGLE time against Uraeus, and since he was hitting me for 600~1k it was very hard to stay alive. As people said, using a Shield is pretty much useless now, and I'm considering tanking on MRD until it's fixed, at least I can parry more and do some damage...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bayohne

We hear you guys on the block rate and we'll look into making adjustments based upon your feedback - so please keep it coming!

---

Thats good, because right now with the terrible block rate MRD is better at nearly everything GLA can do making the class nearly useless besides to level for Sentinel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

If that is true, then SE needs to fix this page

---

Block rate =/= Damage blocked

STR = amount of damage blocked
DEX = amount of times you raise the shield

It doesn't matter whether you fight a higher level mob or a lower level mob. On lower level mobs, all you will see is more misses against you, so will barely be able to tell if your block rate is broken against them or not. Ive fought some monsters considerably lower level than me, and when I did get hit, it wasn't always a block, even tho my stats are far above some level 20 monster. IF Dex truely governed block rate, I should never see a block fail on something 30 levels below me at Level 50 with a Kite Shield +1 (94), Self Preservation (+5) and Sentinels Gauntlets (+5).

The thing they must do is make the block rate listed on the shield the block rate. Skills, equipment, and shield quality increase it. Good thing to do would be to set the 'tanking' shield to 75-80% for NQ, then the player would have to actually use skills, other equipment, or HQ shield to make it better. If only gladiator can use it, it should block more than a shield a conj or thm can use as well, to put it that way. It would give people a reason to use Ambidexterity after the change. Speaking of which... 3Min recast is too long for that skill now. The actual Level of the shield should have more influence on amount blocked rather than block rate. Also, when we scroll or select a shield, it should tell us OUR block rate with that shield, not some set number that means nothing, since dex, equipment, and skills can increase it. There should also be a stat in our Status window to show Parry and Block Rate.

However as said, making GLD block normally wont fix the gladiators current usefulness. Once, Storm's Path was cross-classable, and it was a good AOE enmity generating damage attack that classes that could tank could use. Now that it is just MRD, something has to be done with Gladiator. I suggest either Making Riot Blade AOE, or adding slightly more potency and increased enmity to Circle Slash, or both would be better since Riot Blade Depletes all TP and pacifies. The point wouldn't be to do more damage than MRD in AOE, it would be to hold ENMITY in AOE against other peoples' AOE damage or heals. Even a wide-volley can take enmity away from a Gladiator against multiple targets. ALSO.... I don't think it has been considered at all, but War Drums Is a pretty useless skill for 5 ac and 40s Recast. It too can not generate enough enmity to keep hate off of a healer or aoe damager. Suggest its recast be reduced to 20s and slight increase in enmity, or greatly increase its enmity generation. Another silly skill, Cadence, Should Increase Enmity generation for not one attack, but for a set duration.

Moved the last part to a different thread, since this one is about block and parry :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whax

Block rate =/= Damage blocked

STR = amount of damage blocked
DEX = amount of times you raise the shield

---

This is absolutely untrue, ever since launch and now in 1.19a. Compare 220 STR block rates to 310 STR block rates, you can easily see the difference yourself, on any level monster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stufoo

This is absolutely untrue, ever since launch and now in 1.19a. Compare 220 STR block rates to 310 STR block rates, you can easily see the difference yourself, on any level monster.

---

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ats-And-You%21

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whax

Block rate =/= Damage blocked

STR = amount of damage blocked
DEX = amount of times you raise the shield

---

This is correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stufoo

This is absolutely untrue, ever since launch and now in 1.19a. Compare 220 STR block rates to 310 STR block rates, you can easily see the difference yourself, on any level monster.

---

I see you posting this a lot, and I'm happy to see people posting their observations. The problem, however, is that it seems that the only testing you've done is "Just eyeballing it," which isn't enough. People are going to accept the information the Community Rep was given as fact until someone has actual data to prove otherwise. And until then, I'd worry about posting your observations as fact.

To another topic, it would be great to see our base block rate somewhere in game. Obviously it will fluctuate between mobs (based on their stats), similar to something like evasion. But having a way to see the changes would be tremendously helpful.

And overall... shields just need to mean more than an extra space to slot materia, which is nice, but... it won't make or break any fight.

i think with the implementation of autoattack you should still keep a defend/raise shield mode. This lends to that final fantasy series feel as in almost every offline you could defend. You could adjust it to where you cannot autoattack in shield mode or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alderton

I see you posting this a lot, and I'm happy to see people posting their observations. The problem, however, is that it seems that the only testing you've done is "Just eyeballing it," which isn't enough..

---

Go do it yourself then. It has been STR since the alpha of this game and it still is as of 1.19a. You saw plenty of times GLA with scutums missing blocks with no STR allotted, and GLAs that never missed a block with high STR, and 0 DEX, while every single time you get imperiled you can miss a block even with a scutum. It's currently STR, period.

If the dev is talking about the game currently, he is wrong. It probably got lost in translation and they are planning to change it to dex, or they made a mistake.

Oh, and this: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=260665

http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/item/4030204/Cobalt-Katzbalger

This is a Gladiator item which gives Parry.. why?
It's even a sword, so the "Marauder item" argument doesn't work.

I'm on THM, and I am just eyeballing this but I see absolutely zero benefit to block rates by adding STR (ignoring the fact that it doesn't really help anything else on THM either). Granted, I can't add that much- 15 with the traits mages learn and a little bit on oddball gear- Only way I can add much more would be materia.

(I had set these traits in the futile hope that it would help basic and TP actions but it didn't do much of anything for those either)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm on THM, and I am just eyeballing this but I see absolutely zero benefit to block rates by adding STR (ignoring the fact that it doesn't really help anything else on THM either). Granted, I can't add that much- 15 with the traits mages learn and a little bit on oddball gear- Only way I can add much more would be materia.

(I had set these traits in the futile hope that it would help basic and TP actions but it didn't do much of anything for those either)

---

To really test something like this you not only need to add enough of the stat to make a big difference (I'd say 15-20% at least) but also a large sample size (like 500 or so hits at least)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ricky

http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/item/4030204/Cobalt-Katzbalger

This is a Gladiator item which gives Parry.. why?
It's even a sword, so the "Marauder item" argument doesn't work.

---

You can play Glad with no shield, I guess.... And honestly, you have to think if Parry procs more than Blocks, then that might not be a bad idea

Yes, I agree with you, i'm just saying if it does affect it, most people aren't going to notice- and it's not as simple of a task to get lots of STR to test this stuff when we don't have point allocation anymore.

Perhaps adding a Shield Mastery trait for gladiator will help. The size of the shield will govern the amount of time you block, and the amount of damage mitigated.

I want to block magic and range attacks too.

side note: It seems every monster and animal have some kind of range attack ability. even goats lol

edit: shield users should be able parry as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Choyi

I find this to be a huge balance issue.
Having both my GLA and MRD at 50 I have used both as tanks now and in the past.
However now with the ifrit fight being one of the few challangeing content out, I feel very sad to see that yet again MRD is by far the superior tank.

Why? Well MRD can mignate about 20-30% incomming damage with parry alone, does about 3 times the damage while tanking(defenderII up) then a GLA and has easier time to maintain hate (basicly hate is silly easy to keep on MRD while as on GLA you actualy have to put effort in) thus making it easier just to focus on damage and survivial.

But GLA can block right? Normaly yes, but you can't block Ifrits attacks for some reason, me and 3 other LS GLAs have fought Ifrit many times and I've yet to see any block procs, making shield skills useless.

So what does GLA have over MRD as a tank? Around 50defence 300 hp and about 50mp.
Meanwhile MRD reduced alot more damage taken, does alot more damage and holds better hate.

Please SE look into balancing this, I leveled my GLA to tank and when my MRD is doing it much more efficiant I feel like GLA is a useless class to have, the only times I bring out my GLA is for casual stronghold farm content...

Its a simple fix as well, either let shield users parry, or improve block to the point where it acutaly feels worth it to bring a GLA to any highend content.

---

Well said Choyi.

I agree with most everyone's sentiments on this thread. I switched from Gladiator to Marauder tank this past week (and I normally don't even play Marauder), and the difference in tanking on Ifrit was night and day: I took far less damage with Parry activating more often, could hold hate far more easily, and do more damage than Gladiator as well.

There's no comparison.

I guess it's ultimately about where Team Yoshida and the Battle Team want to take the evolution of Gladiator ("Paladin") and Marauder ("Warrior"). One would think that Gladiator > Paladin would be the main Tank Job in this game, but at this rate, it's not even close. Gladiator is far outstripped by Marauder for tanking on Ifrit.

If they want to make Gladiator > Paladin the main Tank class, then they need to increase Block Rate, allow Parrying and Evading (all 3 facets of Defensive maneuvers), or at least make Blocking proc far more often with higher defense on Gladiator.

Thanks.

I guess sometimes you just have to find the extremes before you can find balance... At one point blocking was very significant... almost God-Like in some cases.... and now it is almost non existent....
I do agree though... A GLAD should block noticeably more than a similarly geared MRD parry's

Another suggestion is that as you can evade from any side you should be able to block and parry from any side, its quite possible to fight like this to a fantasy world and even in the physical one is a lot of easier to have the reflex to raise your arm and block or parry a hit from the side or back instead of moving your whole body.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rydin

I guess sometimes you just have to find the extremes before you can find balance... At one point blocking was very significant... almost God-Like in some cases.... and now it is almost non existent....
I do agree though... A GLAD should block noticeably more than a similarly geared MRD parry's

---

I disagree with this, at least from a random standpoint, the difference between parry and block is block has a host of skills associated with it. glad should get more control though, possibly skills with some disadvantages, guaranteed block for tp maybe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

I disagree with this, at least from a random standpoint, the difference between parry and block is block has a host of skills associated with it. glad should get more control though, possibly skills with some disadvantages, guaranteed block for tp maybe?

---

Well yea... I meant with all of the abilities like deflection and such

Paladin will probably be the true shield wielder.

Reprisal + Godlike block rate please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demacia

Paladin will probably be the true shield wielder.

Reprisal + Godlike block rate please.

---

this is also a possibility, but if it is the case, then gladiator should have way more dmg potential than it currently has. Honestly wouldnt mind a dual weild option for a DD gladiator type, but even with that, i dont know if the weaponskills could hold up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

this is also a possibility, but if it is the case, then gladiator should have way more dmg potential than it currently has. Honestly wouldnt mind a dual weild option for a DD gladiator type, but even with that, i dont know if the weaponskills could hold up

---

Guess we'll find out in 1.20 eh? It's pretty much a given that PLD will get the best defensive abilities. Assuming they keep things kosher and don't bust out another FFXI style Ninja.