Don't misslead people about what their job does, please

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Originally Posted by Jayjohn

So let me get this, you guys want to make it clearer what classes do?

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I think the point of the OP, was to just make it clearer as to what role each class plays in a party, when initially selecting your class.

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Originally Posted by Omskahn

Edit: Besides are you really suggesting that people need to do research outside of the game just to figure out the General purpose of a class? Something that could be cleared up in one sentence?

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Do people not read/watch previews before they buy a game? Especially a subscription based game? Most previews talk about classes and races, at that point it should click.

Besides, we already see just from this thread. There's a variance in experience. Someone read a tool tip and didn't understand enmity, whereas most see it and don't think twice.

If SE labels a class a tank, do they then need to define the responsibilities of a tank? DDo they need to define hate, for those not familiar?

I think there should be a reasonable expectation.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I think the point of the OP, was to just make it clearer as to what role each class plays in a party, when initially selecting your class.

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Thank you for actually understanding what I've been saying all this time <3
Yes, I'm talking about the character creation and class description there. Why do people always talk about how the game LATER makes it obvious which role a class is? Even if you consider it obvious (which it isn't to several people, but let's ignore that part for now) it STILL sucks to have leveled 15 levels until you see what your role is in group content or through class quests.

As Niwashi said:

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

by the time I entered my first dungeon I knew I was supposed to tank, but even so, that would have been pretty late to find out if I hadn't planned on doing everything at some point anyway. For somebody who didn't want to tank, getting 15 levels in and only then finding out that the class they'd been leveling that whole time isn't even the role they wanted would be quite a blow.

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15 levels are a big deal when it's all you ever played. And to suddenly see you did them for nothing sucks, especially if it is such an easy thing for SE to fix.

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Do people not read/watch previews before they buy a game? Especially a subscription based game? Most previews talk about classes and races, at that point it should click.

Besides, we already see just from this thread. There's a variance in experience. Someone read a tool tip and didn't understand enmity, whereas most see it and don't think twice.

If SE labels a class a tank, do they then need to define the responsibilities of a tank? DDo they need to define hate, for those not familiar?

I think there should be a reasonable expectation.

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That's the problem. There isn't a label for some classes eventual role anywhere at all in the character creation. Why can't that be added? Explain to me, why can't a simple sentence be there to say that?

Yes people can be dumb, more often than not in my experience, and people are often impatient and don't read things before jumping to conclusions.

However, imo providing more information up front for what classes' roles are and what jobs they progress on to during character creation makes perfect sense and can only be helpful.

While I had no difficulty figuring out what was what and choosing appropriately, I have also been playing MMO's since eq1 so I know what to look for and already understand the trappings of MMO's. For people that are new to the game and genre it does kind of leave them in the dark when they are first making their character.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Thank you for actually understanding what I've been saying all this time <3

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I never played an MMO like this before, sure I played older FF and Elder Scrolls games, heck even D&D on an old Packard Bell computer back in the early 90's. I had no clue that GLA was a tank or even what a tank was I just saw sword and shield and said thats me, and off I went. I even made it all the way to Halatali before I figured out what I was "suppose" to be doing.

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Originally Posted by Omskahn

That's the problem. There isn't a label for some classes eventual role anywhere at all in the character creation. Why can't that be added? Explain to me, why can't a simple sentence be there to say that?

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I agree that it would be a good QOL thing to add. But in the end, it's not a big deal. As most know, by level 15 and you do 1st dungeon you know for sure what your role is supposed to be. And label 15 is nothing on this game.

And this really only applies to two classes: glad and mrd and the tank role.

I mean, the game is designed around multiple playthrough using a single character.

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Originally Posted by Jayjohn

You do know your class icon colors denotes to what you are expected to do. Blue for tanks, Red for DPS, Green for Healers.

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Two problems with this as a source for figuring out your class's role:

1: Most places, the class icons aren't shown in colors. They're either all gold or all silver with no background color. (In fact, in character creation, I don't recall the icons being shown at all. I think they're just listed by name there.) The icon colors just apply to the party window, which most players won't even see until they start running instanced dungeons.

2: There's nothing intrinsic about those colors to indicate which one means what. SE could just as well have decided that tanks should be shown in red as the bright standout "look at me" color, and blue is probably most easily associated with healing. What's more, the game never tells us which icon colors mean what (or even that they mean anything). We figure that out after we already know which classes do what, based on seeing the classes we know to be tanks shown in blue, the classes we know to be healers shown in green, and the classes we know to be damage dealers shown in red.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I had no clue that GLA was a tank or even what a tank was I just saw sword and shield and said thats me, and off I went. I even made it all the way to Halatali before I figured out what I was "suppose" to be doing.

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Did you even read the class quests and how they talked about the gladiator needing to protect the party, and then, did you fall asleep during the quests where you have to pull aggro off the npcs so that you could complete them? The game is already telling you what you needed to do.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Did you even read the class quests and how they talked about the gladiator needing to protect the party, and then, did you fall asleep during the quests where you have to pull aggro off the npcs so that you could complete them? The game is already telling you what you needed to do.

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Ain't nobody got time to read, must kill things.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Ain't nobody got time to read, must kill things.

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Perhaps a class based RPG that requires knowledge of your skillset to succeed may not be for you. Maybe a hack and slash, or fighting game?

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Perhaps a class based RPG that requires knowledge of your skillset to succeed may not be for you. Maybe a hack and slash, or fighting game?

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Nope, I'm right at home here, but thanks for the advice.

But the symbols inside said colors dont even allude to what the class does

Gladiators are two crossed swords which SCREAM damage dealer, conjured is a damn tree branch...what does that even mean?

Oh and later the tree evolves into a staff, danage dealers get a few weird ones.

Especially for someone who comes from mmos where they all share universal. Symbols like a flame/sword, medic cross symbol and a shield for tanks at all times.

Some ppl dont read, some do and get confused by the vague descriptions nothing in the game let's you know what your role is in a party setup.

My first sword/stick/Healy thing says go kill things...a lot.there's no defining moment in the class quests that say for example

You are the shield that protects the group, gather the enemies do our backup spell casters can kill them, hold their attention so they dont stray.

You get told this in your gladiator quest a grand total of 1 time and right afterwards you go and GUESS WHAT? kill enemies left and right with no sense of organization nor direction. You can't even rip hate off certain npcs.

Conjurer is a mixed bag because yes you have to heal but Nov dps is so garbage you have to dps as well and guess what?

Thm and arc has to do both as well.

Im all for a pre start tutorial where you must do X with X skills as a trainer of said job explains what your role is.

Guildhiests dont tell you much of anything and you are not guided or forced to do them at all until post level 50. like how ppl who say look at your color are so short sighted at their own faulty logic.

Colors dont mean jack (which isn't even shown in character creation faulty logic point

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

nothing in the game let's you know what your role is in a party setup.

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There is one place. It's shown in the Duty Finder window. (Not explained but identified, e.g. "Role: Tank")

But even if you notice it immediately (which not everybody will), many players won't see the DF window until they're level 15 or a little higher, whenever they reach Sastasha. That's much too late to figure out what a class is for. The point of the thread is that this info should be available when you're *choosing* which class to play at character creation, so that players can start on a class that fits the role they want.

At first, when I started out with PGL, I honestly thought it was a tank class. It gets a self heal that, at lower levels, restores a significant portion of your HP (better than any potion or cure), and you can cross Cure and Protect from CNJ. Also, the first buff you get is a damage reduction static buff, and a CD buff that allows you to evade attacks. It wasn't until I unlocked MNK that I started to see that it was more aimed towards DPS, and at this time you have gotten your second static buff Fists of Fire that is clearly DPS (but could also be seen as a mechanism to hold aggro).

MRD was another confusing one. At lower levels (like < 15), it's a wet paper bag: A single enemy can more than half kill you at level, but you can sorta kill them fast. At level 20ish, and geared right for that level, the tables turn: it can more than half kill an enemy in 2 GCDs, it can take it's share of damage (like PGL), but you do get the CDs that allow you to start mitigating damage, and an ability to draw aggro. So, those are some hints at least, but you've already gotten to at least Lv15 before you begin to realize that. Still, it's Mind and MP are absolute shite that you can't rely on crossing Cure to help save you worth a snot. In short, it's not until you get to WAR that you start to realize your role.

At least that's how I found it to be.

Also, I agree with what others in this thread have said about GLD: seemed like it could go either way if it equiped a shield or not.

The class quests from levels 1 through 15 are so obviously clear about your role in party content that I am literally in awe there were so many people who thought their tank was a damage dealer and vice versa.

Both GLA and MRD class quests introduce enmity to you and require you to hold aggro on enemies to complete them so that the NPC's with you don't die.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

The class quests from levels 1 through 15 are so obviously clear about your role in party content that I am literally in awe there were so many people who thought their tank was a damage dealer and vice versa.

Both GLA and MRD class quests introduce enmity to you and require you to hold aggro on enemies to complete them so that the NPC's with you don't die.

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I's been a while but Ive done both MRD and GLA class quests. That was was never apparent to me until like 20 something because i just killed the things and they kept healing themselves. No tanking necessary until the later ones.

It really seemed no different on the MRD for sure, than on any of the dps class quests to me.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Both GLA and MRD class quests introduce enmity to you and require you to hold aggro on enemies to complete them so that the NPC's with you don't die.

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And here I thought the MRD quests were all about teaching me how to smash rocks to pieces ;_;

"I need a tutorial to tell me not to skip tutorials"

In the example with GLA and MRD, its flavor. Gladiators are arena combatants that train to compete in an arena and if you knew anything about the Coliseum of the Roman empire you'll notice that this isn't just from a silly fantasy game. Marauders are berserkers that recklessly charge into battle taking advantage of the confusion they cause to beat the senses out of their opponents, yelling and screaming and swinging a massive tool of destruction around. These guys tend to live a life of piracy.

When you actually unlock the Paladin and Warrior soul crystals the story completely changes and explains your role a lot better than you make it out to be. The first 30 levels of a class are quite meaningless considering even a mage can tank a dungeon to that point. The GLA and MRD are just there with the ability to hold threat and their job is to mostly do damage.

I actually started this game thinking gladiator was a DPS class. Was pretty shocked to find I was a 'terrible tank.' :P

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Originally Posted by Felis

FF XIII - Sentinel = tank

In boss fights you gave one of the party members the Sentinel paradigm role, to drew the boss attacks to him/her



And the Vikings in FF III

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Nitpicking. FFXIII doesn't require you to "HAVE" a Sentinel to defeat ALL battles. And in FFIII, just about everyone never changed the initial roles. So it was always three DPS and one healer.

What I'm getting at is that people who have played ANY previous FF game, assume that there are only Damage-Dealers and Healers. Only people who came from other MMORPG games would be familiar with what a Tank is, and even then, most other MMORPG's don't enforce a Tank or Healer role. Everyone is a Damage-Dealer with some crappy hate mitigation/healing skills. Like even when I played Wizardy Online, which is a game that doesn't enforce those roles, you absolutely needed a Tank'ing character and a healing character in your party to initially get past "harder" content, but ONLY the bosses. But you could also just level-grind past the point of needing a tank, and solo everything if you were 10 levels higher than the dungeon. That's something you can't do in this game.

The idea of a Tank or a Healer barely exists in PvP games because if you don't have the same build everyone else has, you're a pushover.

I simply do not understand why people are against it. It baffles me how there is so much negativity against it :confused:
I mean, it's not a big change I'm proposing! All I asked for is that the descriptions during class selection in the character creation become less misleading.

Why is this something to be against? How does it hurt you or your experience in any way?
It's a few lines of text to be fixed, it won't take development recources off of things you care about.
Since all of you already have a character, you won't even see the changes at all.
Yes, some people might be stupid in your eyes for realizing late what role their job is supposed to be, or ignorant for not reading anything and expect to still do well to some degree.
But giving those people right information instead of wrong won't hurt you.
It will actually decrease the number of people you can get annoyed by in low lvl duty roulettes, because even if it helps just 10% of the people, it's still 10% less people you have to bother with.
So explain to me why this is appaerently a bad thing...