Disappointed by Alexander (story) difficulty, fear Savage difficulty

Alex Savage difficulty most likely will be on the same level as normal coil was in 2.0, much lower then second coil savage.

Then get better and raid Savage when it comes out

I find it funny how people call things easy when clearly they aren't. Maybe mechanics "seem" easy enough. But paired with 7 other people (maybe all strangers) things can get tricky.

Yes, Alexander is able to be DF'd. Yes it can be cleared in 1 day. I did last night. But I wouldn't call the fights easy. I kept reading on the forums all day yesterday that they were easy. I set my expectations too low. Then proceeded to wipe constantly to F1 and F2. I pick things up fast, so at a certain point it was me relying on party members, but that's just how it has to be sometimes. I had a ninja friend spend 30 attempts at F4, while I went in with him later on and it only took me about 6. Just the way the cookie crumbles. But these fights are no pushover. I'd say its about medium difficulty for almost-hardcore players.

Maybe you're giving your "easy" rating based on a hardcore static group. If that's the case, then you're in luck because Savage is around the corner, but there are lots of casual players like me that don't have time for a hardcore lifestyle anymore and this difficulty is perfect.

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Originally Posted by Brundlefly

Maybe you're giving your "easy" rating based on a hardcore static group. If that's the case, then you're in luck because Savage is around the corner, but there are lots of casual players like me that don't have time for a hardcore lifestyle anymore and this difficulty is perfect.

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Exactly. I am in a static that does all the hardest content, but 90% of my FC are not - and frankly, they get sick of running CT or wiping in PF/DF coil. And despite being in a static that does the hardest content, I happen to enjoy Alex NM

Alexander NM is like Crystal Tower.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Alexander NM is like Crystal Tower.

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Can you have 5 people stand outside the arena for half the boss, people DCing and nobody cares, run around mashing your keyboard and still clear Alex NM?

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Originally Posted by OliviaBadger

Can you have 5 people stand outside the arena for half the boss, people DCing and nobody cares, run around mashing your keyboard and still clear Alex NM?

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With how easy people are saying it is. Probably.

However, I would round that down based on calculation.

So only 1.6 people would be afk!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

With how easy people are saying it is. Probably.

However, I would round that down based on calculation.

So only 1.6 people would be afk!

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Haha.

Well, it is easy yes. But it's supposed to be. A lot of people on my server are enjoying it, and the casuals like the difficulty level of it, so I think the game needs it. Most of the people complaining that its too easy are the raiders - of course coming from things like savage SCOB its gonna be faceroll. But we have savage alex in less than 2 weeks, so I really don't see why casuals having an easy raid affects the HC players in any way.

IMO the tuning is right for a story mode. First and foremost, this is a final fantasy. As such, story is one of the most important aspects. How many people completely missed out on the binding coil story due to it only being tuned to the hardcore. Savage will be in 2 weeks, have better gear and provide the level of challenge the hardcore raiders are looking for. If NM is so easy that it offends you in some way, take 2 weeks and come back to savage. Don't just take to the forums and insult players who actually didn't get it cleared the first night.

If Savage is as hard as Savage 2nd Coil, then I 100% agree with the OP. The story modes are too easy to provide any interest long-term, and the Savage mode would be far too hard for all but a handful of teams on each server. There would be no middle ground.

I doubt that will happen though. I expect Savage to be on par with regular, non-echo, coil. Why? Because this time Savage drops the best gear in the game. Savage 2nd Coil was only for bragging, so nobody cared. People will care about this. If it's too hard, there will be an outcry. If there is one thing this community is good at, it's complaining when things are too hard. If there is one thing SE is good at, it's making things easier when people complain.

And please, before anyone tells me how they have said it would be harder than regular coil... stop. They said the same thing about Final Coil. Yoshi-P was shocked in an interview when somebody referred to Final Coil as the easiest (it is). I don't think they gauge difficulty the same way players do.

Ppl complain content is to hard, ppl complain content is to easy. QYB

The problem with things as they exist is the imbalance in the types of content in the game. 95% percent of the content in this game is extremely easy and can be cleared via DF with minimal wipes. That leaves 5% for the people who want a real challenge and nothing for all of those who want something harder than dungeons and CT but easier than Coil-- and that's a sizable portion of the playerbase.

If dungeons are too easy and Coil is too hard, where does that leave all of the midcore players? Sure, they could try their hand at Coil, but they shouldn't feel forced into it if they aren't interested in doing it. That's exactly the sort of thing that turns people off from raiding even if they might otherwise have decided they wanted to give it a shot someday.

There needs to be something that offers those players a challenge without frustrating them, and right now there really isn't.

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Originally Posted by repoe

Ppl complain content is to hard, ppl complain content is to easy. QYB

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^

And some people around here like to complain about just anything anyway.

This easy mode raid is easy, deal with it.

Wait for the hardcore version and then we'll see if it's too easy as well.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

The problem with things as they exist is the imbalance in the types of content in the game. 95% percent of the content in this game is extremely easy and can be cleared via DF with minimal wipes. That leaves 5% for the people who want a real challenge and

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In other words, you will never satisfy everyone so this is a non issue.

You could keep making this same argument for eternity a every individual is going to have a different opinion on what is hard and what isnt...

As for the 95% comment. That should be common sense. They make the very large majority of content available to everyone. To do otherwise would be a terrible business decision. Do you like this video game? The money they get from all of those casuals subscribing is what payed for it. The small % of good raiders sure didn't put in enough money for development of a game this size.

thank god its an easy raid, i dont even know how coil ended cause i dont even have a static, so DFing stuff is my thing, this way i wont miss the story

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Originally Posted by OliviaBadger

Can you have 5 people stand outside the arena for half the boss, people DCing and nobody cares, run around mashing your keyboard and still clear Alex NM?

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No.
While there are plenty of people that call it faceroll easy, that tends to be extreme exaggeration.
Some people got lucky with DF, while the reality is most people you get in NA/EU DF just suck. I really wish it would be more like on JP where you only do DF if you know what to do and PF if you need to learn it.
It's quite frustrating to spend an hour explaining the fight throughout wipe after wipe and then see people leave because they can't handle the dps checks. So you have to enter again, and repeat the same thing... again... and again...

Well with that attitude you won't get through it, harder raids are fine as long as they are fair. I was a little bummed it was just another set of small corridors with bosses in the end though.
My issue with endgame is the lack of mid tier content as well, doesn't need to be raids exactly but dungeons with the same difficulty design as EX trials would be nice as atm content is either stupidly easy or hard, no real in between. Trials are mid tier content I guess but I want dungeons cut of the same cloth personally, not just boss fights.

I have NO problem with the Normal version being easy... they should always have 2 difficulties so that everyone can experience the raid and storyline. When I was raiding Coil, I was introduced to the awesome story at the same time... but my girlfriend, who is very casual couldn't experience any of it because she's not a "raider" and didn't have time to research all the fights and wipe 100 times on Twintania.

I felt bad that she couldn't go through Coil on her character until it was nerfed to the ground and put on Duty Finder.

If Normal is easy and rewards nice gear, that's fine.... but Savage needs to be harder and reward a better item level.

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"No preparation necessary (all fights can be quickly explained in-game)"

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Nothing wrong with that... I shouldn't have to watch video guides and read huge walls of text just to enjoy a video game.

If this difficulty was our only option, then yes, I would also be complaining.. but the fact that a harder version is coming out soon, there's no reason to be up in flames about this.

I don't find these hard but i've seen many players struggle with them. Do the mechanics stay the same for the savage version? If they do, this is a great way of learning them. Most wipes are due to failure to understand mechanics. Coil was a pain because of that.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

....very casual couldn't experience any of it because she's not a "raider" and didn't have time to research all the fights and wipe 100 times on Twintania.
I shouldn't have to watch video guides and read huge walls of text just to enjoy a video game.

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being prepared is more than just learning a fight
being prepared is willing to figure out mechanics, bringing food+pots, having money for repairs, etc.

also you think 100 times is a lot? pffttttt
hahahaha

i dont think raiding is for her

I love how quickly people strive for average instead of striving to be the best on this forum.

-Knows Savage is coming out
-Devs says it going to be harder than coils
-Still complains about content made specifically for the casual player

This thread is nothing more than wanking the epeen. Yes, you are better than the majority of the community. SE is making content specifically for you in a couple of weeks. So why complain about content not designed for you?

I find it hilarious that this is even a topic.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

-Knows Savage is coming out
-Devs says it going to be harder than coils
-Still complains about content made specifically for the casual player

This thread is nothing more than wanking the epeen. Yes, you are better than the majority of the community. SE is making content specifically for you in a couple of weeks. So why complain about content not designed for you?

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Because not everybody is a hardcore raider?. What he means is, there is extremely easy mode, then a copy of extremely easy mode with harder mechanics, boss health, damage etc...coil was great because 90% of players could down it if they had two days a week to spare!. Now we get one hard raid where everything is the same except what i mentioned above and yet....apparently nothing is wrong with that?.

The problem is now we will have two difficulties, one of which is basically so easy a 10 year old playing on their brother's account can do it, and a difficulty so difficult only 5% of the playerbase will be able to do it (if what we have heard of alex savage is to be believed).

Where is the middle ground? Coil normal was the perfect amount of difficulty imo.

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

being prepared is more than just learning a fight
being prepared is willing to figure out mechanics, bringing food+pots, having money for repairs, etc.

also you think 100 times is a lot? pffttttt
hahahaha

i dont think raiding is for her

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Exactly, being prepared in-game is what should be the meta... not going on forums/youtube and researching every single mechanic before even attempting the boss... I would rather jump into a raid, see the boss come out and go "wow he looks awesome, let's see how tough he is!" instead of "oh yeah i saw it on the video, hes gonna do this, and this, and this..."

100 was a random number I pulled out lol, was most likely more than that :P dem twisters!

This is why we cant have nice things.

SE are going to see the cry babies and make the Alexander 2 harder than Ravana EX and noone will be able to DF/PF it with pugs.

I think the people asking for "mid-level" content are skilled enough for hardcore content, but not confident/don't want to deal with/too lazy for savage. So they want something they can deal with while not dealing with the real stuff. So they go and do Alex NM in the DF, ignore the fact that skilled raiders are DFing it too, and complete it and think "this is too easy, how can anyone fail this?"

I think the people asking for "mid-level" content are skilled enough for hardcore content, but not confident/don't want to deal with/too lazy for savage. So they want something they can deal with while not dealing with the real stuff. So they go and do Alex NM in the DF, ignore the fact that skilled raiders are DFing it too, and complete it and think "this is too easy, how can anyone fail this?"

They know full well this content is made for the casual crowd, which they like to pretend they are. A person that doesn't play their job right or doesn't know their best rotation can clear it. So they want something for the people that do know their rotations and can job their job with a decently high skill level. What they don't realize is that's exactly what savage is. Or, they do realize it and don't want to be punished for being the weak link of the group they are in and don't want to improve for the game play they want.

The point is, deal or get better. When there was only hardcore, people asked for casual. When we got both, people ask for mid. When we get mid, people will ask for more. It's got to stop somewhere, so it stops here. Alex normal mode is good where it is and there doesn't need to be any more.

While the idea of missing the difficulty 'sweet spot' that was coil by making Alexander either 1-day faceroll mode or Savage Second Coil grade extremely difficult with no in-between concerns me a bit I have a feeling Savage won't be as ridiculously difficult as its being hyped to be. The devs likely expected Final Coil to be considered the hardest of the 3 coils and yet it turned out the easiest.

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Originally Posted by Onikimaru

Because not everybody is a hardcore raider?. What he means is, there is extremely easy mode, then a copy of extremely easy mode with harder mechanics, boss health, damage etc...coil was great because 90% of players could down it if they had two days a week to spare!. Now we get one hard raid where everything is the same except what i mentioned above and yet....apparently nothing is wrong with that?.

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I'm sorry did you not see that "disgraceful" thread a few months back about how few people in this community not clearing coils compared to Japan? And who knows how many brought clears to subtract from that number.

Don't quote Yoshida that much about content difficulty. His interviews are all over the place or badly translated.

First he said that Normal mode would be on par with FcoB with full echo, and it's true. His last interview he stated that it would be harder than Primal EX but easier than ScoB Savage...
About Alex Savage, he said it would be harder than FcoB Savage and that's a non existent mode.
He is the guy that told us that FcoB and its last boss would be the hardest fight in MMO history... yeah, sure. Bahamut was gated behind a hp wall which was overcame by pentamelded accessories with added vitality (and a tough dps check) and cleared the first week by top guilds.

If Alex Savage would be on par with ScoB Savage, i would scream so hard, because that was the worst challenge i ever saw in a raid, even with 130 ilvl. I have an axe to grind on Melusine S and her Allagan Venom plus Flame Circle and horrible adds spawns.... And good luck keeping medium core raiders busy with a difficulty of that level when Normal Mode isn't a challenge at all and you can gear up there in 4-5 weeks by spamming the same floors until you get the token you need.

I wouldn't bet on the real difficulty of Alex Savage but i'd like it to be on par of ScoB normal; not faceroll easy but a nice, doable challenge for most of the dedicated raider.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I think the 'raid community' is missing the point here (would have quoted but, oh my god so many maligned comments... not gonna) is that the vast majority of players (you know, the 'filthy casuals') didn't touch Coil until it was on the Duty Finder, something that coincided the addition of Echo, and even then still largely avoided it until the 'raid community' had their fill. Square's metrics don't lie, we just hate running 'raid community' content because the 'raid community' acts like they're Gods' Gift to Eorzea. It's not that we can't run the dungeons, we just don't like the 'raid banter' that all too often pops up.

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You just said what I wanted to say but suck at saying it.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I think the 'raid community' is missing the point here (would have quoted but, oh my god so many maligned comments... not gonna) is that the vast majority of players (you know, the 'filthy casuals') didn't touch Coil until it was on the Duty Finder, something that coincided the addition of Echo, and even then still largely avoided it until the 'raid community' had their fill.

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So you're basically saying that the non raid community chose to segregate themselves from the 'raiding' community...but why wait? You guys can communicate with each other and tackle the content at the same time as the raiders...on a different lane. You can already do that. When the raiding community is only 10% or less of the population, finding non raiders to tackle the content shouldn't be harder than what the raiders have to deal with, with their much smaller player pool. What you're telling me is that above the superficial niceties and politeness between the non raiders, you guys don't actually form some decent friendship/partnership then? Seems to me that the raiders are capable of respecting each other more.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

ISquare's metrics don't lie, we just hate running 'raid community' content because the 'raid community' acts like they're Gods' Gift to Eorzea. It's not that we can't run the dungeons, we just don't like the 'raid banter' that all too often pops up. "Oh come on, it's not that bad." Personal experience disagrees. Even today, Turn 1, ADS, High Voltage is ignored with healers expected to, "Tough it out." like a party-wide Paralysis isn't even a thing... I lost count of how many wipes that 'thing' has caused. Nothing says fun like having Esuna interrupted repeatedly.

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So you say you can handle the encounter and then you complain about the 'hardships' of the content? What do you want exactly? Skill and attitude tend to come in pairs. The mentality of a player affects their approach and the effort they want to put in. You want 7 other people with devil may care attitude AND top tier skills? Good luck, I guess.

Comparing going into SCoB when it was released and FCoB when it was also release. I would rate SCoB as more difficult than FCoB. They are saying Alex savage will be harder than FCoB. So going on that I'd guess Alex savage will be around the difficulty as SCoB when it was released.

I had more sense of achievement clearing SCoB than I did FCoB. SCoB was a lot better designed fights than FCoB which was primarilly reused mechanics.

If it's SCoB level of difficulty, for me, will be perfect. Fights based more on mechanics than pure gear checks.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

I think the 'raid community' is missing the point here (would have quoted but, oh my god so many maligned comments... not gonna) is that the vast majority of players (you know, the 'filthy casuals') didn't touch Coil until it was on the Duty Finder, something that coincided the addition of Echo, and even then still largely avoided it until the 'raid community' had their fill. Square's metrics don't lie, we just hate running 'raid community' content because the 'raid community' acts like they're Gods' Gift to Eorzea. It's not that we can't run the dungeons, we just don't like the 'raid banter' that all too often pops up. "Oh come on, it's not that bad." Personal experience disagrees. Even today, Turn 1, ADS, High Voltage is ignored with healers expected to, "Tough it out." like a party-wide Paralysis isn't even a thing... I lost count of how many wipes that 'thing' has caused. Nothing says fun like having Esuna interrupted repeatedly.

Coil, though, like all Final Fantasy questlines, has a story that people wanted to enjoy. So Square, in a brilliant move I might add, made the starting Alexander accessible (somewhat... il170? Really?). It's my hope that the 'raid community' doesn't try and ruin it for everyone else like they did Coil.

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I hate to say it but the logic behind your entire comment falls short when you consider the number of complaints both in game and on these very forums concerning the various requirements people put up for PF parties.

All too often you hear players complain about a lack of learning groups, or PF parties that have "fail x mechanic and get kicked" as the description and yet at the same time those very same players like to parade around the point that the "hardcore" playerbase is only a small percentage of overall players (which is true). If this is the case however then why aren't the casual majority of players making PF groups to avoid the percentage of players they don't want to play with altogether?

It's really as simple as putting up a PF with a description like "FCoB T13 Learning party || No experience required, Expect multiple wipes as we learn, newcomers are welcome!" and right there you have already informed the majority of players of exactly what they can expect by joining the group. Members of the "raid community" aren't going to join a party like that to trash talk or berate newer players, if anything you're likely to find people willing to help out and lend a hand if they know what they are getting in to.

There are a multitude of ways of simply avoiding playing with people who have bad attitudes but more often than not it's the case that instead of taking the alternatives to complete content with like minded individuals, many of these players simply try to join parties like farm parties that they aren't ready for, or claim that the PF is out of learning parties so they'll avoid it all together until a generous amount of echo has been applied, this isn't something you can blame on the attitudes of the "raid community" when you can you simply avoid playing with those types of players.

TLDR: If the number of casual players capable of clearing content outnumbers those of the perceived "raid community" by so many, then why aren't those casual players taking the steps to play with each other instead of waiting for the difficulty of content to be suitably reduced?

Tough to chime in here so let me point out a few things:

Alexander was said to be harder than CT, but easier than Coil. So there's that. Took my static some learning all the same (we insisted on going in blind and learning together), and while had some difficulty, we feel we're in a good spot, and Alex provides decent challenge.

Second Coil was build on mechanics on top of mechanics. Final Coil was DPS checks and punishment for deaths/mechanical mistakes. Second Coil was arguably the hardest, and if Alex Savage is going to be that tough, or worse, as tough as SCoB S, then what we have now is a kindness that should be appreciated.

All the same, my body couldn't be more ready.

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Originally Posted by slml320

besides its helping you start to gear up for savage etc

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Its not helping its forcing it, i would personally like to skip normal mode after initial clear but no we need to grind it for upgrades for savage and that kinda blows atm as normal mode is pretty un-fun imo(feels like normal dungeon with 8man party). Music is good so atleast there something positive :P

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

While the idea of missing the difficulty 'sweet spot' that was coil by making Alexander either 1-day faceroll mode or Savage Second Coil grade extremely difficult with no in-between concerns me a bit I have a feeling Savage won't be as ridiculously difficult as its being hyped to be. The devs likely expected Final Coil to be considered the hardest of the 3 coils and yet it turned out the easiest.

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Well CoB and SCoB were heavily about the mechanics, even more so with SCoB (hence the heavy nerf to mechanics and not just echo as we got with FCoB), and the mechanics where new. FCoB was biased more towards the gear checks, plus the mechanics were reused from other content so nothing really new.

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Originally Posted by seida

I completed fcob with upgraded poe and echo... I don't think I could have done it in it's original state. I'm not a hardcore raider. I consider myself middling.

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Hmm.. this gets interesting. I completed FcoB with average ilvl of 120 or so(mostly upped poes aswell with crafted accesories)pre-echo and i too consider myself as mid-tier player, as in my books hardcores are the ones that cleared FcoB in ilvl110-115 within month of its relase.