Why most people dont like to tank?

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Originally Posted by Derio

Stuff.

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Don't know how you feel that tanks have more responsibilities than the DPS, as in just about every raid DPS deal with the same mechanics as the tanks do and sometimes more. Unless the only thing you've ever done is dungeons, levi or shiva.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Steep learning curve...wut?

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All jobs have a learning curve and I'd say that DPS and healer's are steeper.

The only tank problem at low level is Gladiator due to it being hard to hold hate, unless you've gone out the way to gain raging strike and internal release to increase DPS to better hold hate, but it's not so bad at the start because tanks are not needed and really are just a 3rd DPS in most situations. The only time it's different is if they know they allow for the group to mass pull. Most however do not.

DPS on the other hand have to consistently change their rotations as they level up and when you get to level 50 and beyond, they are the target of most mechanics and have to deal with them, not the tanks. In dungeons they can slide by assuming that no one is watching them and don't say anything.

Healers have a lot more to learn than tanks do and have to actually learn to time their abilities in order to get the most out of the job. You can tell the difference between a great healer and a crappy one. A great one will make the run go a lot faster due to added DPS. Healers also have to deal with healing and are yet again targets of mechanics in content beyond dungeons.

Yet again the reason people don't want to tank is due to the illusion of added responsibility when really you just run in front of the group. Position things and dodge big yellow hit boxes. OR are watching netflix

I will come off as an elitist now and maybe i am one.. but the reason i don't enjoy tanking has nothing to do with anxiety etc.

So im leveling warrior right now, currently at 56. got blm and smn/sch on 60.
Almost every time i soloqueue in DF i end up with the following:
Healer doing 0 dps, the rare case where a healer has cleric stance on its normally by mistake and he will keep healing with it until told to disable it.
2x DPS that is often at around 200 dps on aoe pulls in 50-60 dungeons, how this is even possible i can't grasp.
In the end this boils down to frustration, being tank and still do 40 - 50% of the groups total DPS while also have to lead/deal with everything is fkin annoying and ends up feeling like a big carry.
With these groups i much rather be an dps since while i might do a majority of the groups DPS i dont have to deal with pulling/positionings etc also, or an healer for highest total group dps.

Tanking in premade groups is fun, but i would never main a tank since i know i'll have to do solo queues often for tomes and what not.

I tank because if you want something done right you do it yourself.

Any mechanic that relies on more than two functional brain cells I make sure I am in control of, because trusting dps to do anything correctly in DF is setting yourself up for failure.

Like the ishgard dragon gate fight. 4 wipes because apparently people can't fire cannons. One shot it with me and the healer doing it instead.

Because tanks, like healers, need to be always alert... Though not as much as a healer with lazy dps eating damage left and right.

What actually amazes me are the amount of people in this thread that say that tanking is easier then DPS. I'm sure if you had been tanking for a long time, this would be the case. I think that it is evidence of the many skilled tanks in this game that we have people who see the DPS job as more difficult. however, I highly doubt that people who are new or fresh to tanking would say the same.

As a matter of fact, i believe that the queues for DF also speak against this idea. if queue times are any indication of difficulty of role, then tanking takes the cake by a long shot (the current time is the exception: the glutton of new tanks to the role + the higher level of experienced tanks rolling low level roulettes to ease the leveling process makes current queue pop fast for even DPS).


On the flip side, I do like how FFXIV actually does make the DPS and healer roles challenging. It's honestly the first mmo (out of many) I've played that actually did that well. So this game is closer then many to achieving that goal of balance.

But I still believe that the tank is by far the most challenging, not necessarily just from a mechanics PoV, but also from the view of spatial awareness, leadership, and consequences. a tank dying is much worse for the group then a DPS dying. the exception would probably be high end material where there are two tanks, and threat swapping isn't necessary, and there are DPS checks.

But in most general gameplay, you can tell right away that the group is hit harder when the tank sucks vs. when just a DPS sucks.

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Originally Posted by Temjiu

But I still believe that the tank is by far the most challenging,because they have to pay attention in normal dungeons while DPS can watch netflix.

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FTFY, but really. There is no challenge in going into a dungeon, spamming your aoe hate move 4-5 time for each trash pack, with your tank stance up. Find the one mob (normally out of 3-4) that a DPS is jabbing away at to ignore your mark targets, or if you're actually good you won't have marked targets (unless a particular mob is annoying and you want to burn it down) and single targeting that one first before rotating your combos through each mob.

2nd, the game eases you into tanking. It's highly forgiving at low levels and they have literately placed all the pressure upon the healer. As for the first...32 levels? If the tank dies and you're not in a mass pull, the healer can save the group in almost any situation(or at least I can), bosses included.

DPS have a steeper learning curve because the moment you step into your first raid, you go from having 0 responsibility other than watching netflix, to "omfg everything is targeting me and I have to deal with mechanics. Wadda I do!? Omg" While tanks have dealt with minor mechanics through out their leveling experience in a very forgiving atmosphere. On top of this, if a normal DPS steps out of their comfort zone and into a raid group that progresses with new raid content before obtaining the dungeon spam gear, not only do they have to learn how to deal with said mechanics, they have to do it while optimizing their DPS. 1 wrong move and they or their raid is dead. Most groups have parsers up, so they know if you're sucking. Guess who is getting kicked out and probably easily replaced?

If you're however only referring to the dungeon aspect, then yeah. Tanks are the most "challenging" to learn, but it's not even that hard to figure out.

The reason I have not stepped into a dungeon as one of my tanks is: (1. I do not have the confidence to do so. I'm not sure of my ration and other that other stuff that comes with tanking. Even though I may be better than I give myself credit I have not tried to find out. (2. I do find it a bit boring then my dds classes. Hells, when I'm on one of my healing classes I find it boring too.

That is about it. Other then that I want to learn how to tank and do it properly. Not half arsed "I'm only doing this for faster q time, lulz!" But that will take some time. :3

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Originally Posted by Seku

All jobs have a learning curve and I'd say that DPS and healer's are steeper.

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Nay, I meant the 'experience' of tanking is a curve, not the rotation and whatnot. Your comparison with the DPS rotation isn't what I meant but its exactly how you've described as a healer learning to precisely time their spells.

Those healers have to run a lot of things to get better and better with the timing and what to cast. The same experience is needed to tank where you need to run things over and over to know how to position yourself, how to pull, etc. Some people when they see a tank position a boss towards a wall, they take it for granted but a lot of people actually had to learn about that in the first runs, therefore the steep learning curve.

All of this factors in that it is a brand new tank with 0 tanking ability. I've handled more than my fair share in Sastasha, even Haukke. They have to learn this, learn that and it adds up to that first real experience push before you've settled down and can say, "I am a good tank."

Like with a very vast majority of holy-trinity-focused MMOs, the combat itself does not demand a whole lot of initiative to be successful. A lot of players prefer to learn how best to prioritise their ability list and little more. Tanks are the ones who are usually left to undertake what little organic factors remain. They generally need to be more wary of aspects that are not taught by the game itself, but rather require the player think a bit more laterally to reap the best benefits.
Your job relies far more heavily on the specifics of your movement and how your actions relate to your team. Meanwhile, with the exception of some gimmicky AoE spams at a bosses HP threshold, the other jobs can act as one rigid component of a machine, barely having to give thought to the fact that they're playing alongside other humans, even if part of their job involves targeting or positioning in response to said humans.

I may sound negative, and I do love the game for its FF charm, but you have to admit, most of what we do in this game is instructed indirectly or not, which collapses the skill-ceiling. A very artificial form of teamwork where people are easy to replace. Tanks just have that bit more wiggle room and decision-making to enjoy.

I did an Arum Vale today, to get my promotion for Storm. AV as we all know, sucks eggs and takes a little patience to do safely. On our way to the last boss, the Monk runs past me, pulls a bunch of trash and wipes the group, then accuses me of being too slow by way of apology. I dropped that group and immediately felt better.

People really need to get over treating tanks like waiters. I pay my $14.95 a month the same as everyone else, I'm not under some special obligation to be the punching bag for some antisocial twerp on a power trip.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Tanks get zero forgiveness.

...if a tank doesn't know the fight it's a Vote Abandon.

and if a tank makes a mistake -- everyone sees it.

Zero forgiveness.

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This pretty much sums up what's scaring me away from tanking.
I mean, I want to learn how to tank. Ideally, my dream job would to become a lvl 60 Warrior that everyone can depend on.

Getting to that point however will take time, particularly for me, since I've returned to game fairly recently. Most people from my experience expect the tank to know everything and be an expert already. Yesterday in DF I saw a WHM start pulling because he said the tank was 'too slow' which devolved into a shouting match.

Sorry if this sounds like a mini-rant. On the plus-side, I've been slowly chipping away at dungeons with my MRD and haven't had a catastrophe yet, though I'm worried about higher level instances/trials/raids.

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Originally Posted by Seku

FTFY, but really. There is no challenge in going into a dungeon, spamming your aoe hate move 4-5 time for each trash pack, with your tank stance up. Find the one mob (normally out of 3-4) that a DPS is jabbing away at to ignore your mark targets, or if you're actually good you won't have marked targets (unless a particular mob is annoying and you want to burn it down) and single targeting that one first before rotating your combos through each mob.


2nd, the game eases you into tanking. It's highly forgiving at low levels and they have literately placed all the pressure upon the healer. As for the first...32 levels? If the tank dies and you're not in a mass pull, the healer can save the group in almost any situation(or at least I can), bosses included.

DPS have a steeper learning curve because the moment you step into your first raid, you go from having 0 responsibility other than watching netflix, to "omfg everything is targeting me and I have to deal with mechanics. Wadda I do!? Omg" While tanks have dealt with minor mechanics through out their leveling experience in a very forgiving atmosphere. On top of this, if a normal DPS steps out of their comfort zone and into a raid group that progresses with new raid content before obtaining the dungeon spam gear, not only do they have to learn how to deal with said mechanics, they have to do it while optimizing their DPS. 1 wrong move and they or their raid is dead. Most groups have parsers up, so they know if you're sucking. Guess who is getting kicked out and probably easily replaced?

If you're however only referring to the dungeon aspect, then yeah. Tanks are the most "challenging" to learn, but it's not even that hard to figure out.

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Good points. really it's more of a disservice to DPS that they don't have a bit more forced learning early on. But on that point, that seems more like an issue of the game not progressively teaching DPS mechanics that they SHOULD know, instead of the job simply being tougher. In that sense, the game is actually more well designed to teach tanks then it is DPS. not sure if that makes their job much more difficult or not.

Personally, when im tanking low level runs, yeah a few AoE skills keeps aggro, especially on my warrior. but when a DPS is slacking, im the one as the tank that has to pick up their slack. you can throw tidbits at them, but on the whole, it seems like they could be learning things as they progress, but instead of being forced, the game relies on the group to teach them ("hit the mob with the 1 above it first please!" "avoid standing in the bad please"). so the opportunity for them to learn is there...we just don't push it.

which sort of goes back to my original point. by the time you hit raids (the last 5% of the game) yeah, the DPS are dropped into a world of mechanics that they weren't aware of...but the tanks and healers were forced to learn about much earlier. but this has less to do with the job needs, and more to do with not bothering to learn anything until it's dropped on their heads.

I personally prefer to learn a run as DPS, i can see everything that's going on from a much broader viewpoint, and catch many things that I may miss as a tank with a boss' big butt in my face. then I go back and tank it. perhaps its this process (being a tank by trade, but learning the ropes as DPS), that makes me more aware of mechanics from both sides...I dunno. But when it comes to the roles, I find DPS a bit more peaceful and easier to deal with. But that also may be an issue with perception too...in the tank role I suddenly feel much more responsible for the other members.

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Originally Posted by DMG

This pretty much sums up what's scaring me away from tanking.

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it shouldn't be

because i routinely enter fights that i have no prior knowledge of and vote abandons are not initiated the way the player you are replying to has made it sound. most players who use DF for extreme trials are whiny baby quitters who have trouble finding the pointy end of their sticks in the first place - this really has very little bearing on how they choose to behave after finding out you are not an amazing player.

if you want to tank, then do it. there are people who give you shit regardless of your role. at least, when i started playing MMOs there were. If your dps was garbage you didn't get invited to raids and you were kicked out of them often.

so i read guides on how to optimize my dps, what items to get, what consumables i could use. and then everything was great. i wish i could say the same as a tank, but i kind of just jumped into it as i felt like it wasn't very different from being a melee DPS.

When I did main a tank, I found it rather easy honestly. It bored me, but I did it because I wanted tanking done right. Nothing irritates people more than bad tanking.

Then I switched to a DPS class, I found it much more challenging and timing tight when trying to maximize your numbers and deal with mechanics while taking as little damage as possible because you are one of the last people to get healed.

Truthfully, anyone can take the leadership responsibility role, it's just the player base usually leaves it to the tanks. I found while I was tanking to be able to call out mechanics much easier over Voice Chat than I ever could as a dps.

To me, if your party fails a dps check, it's not really you tank or healers fault, the first people you look at is the dps. The first thing people usually complain about now is not having enough dps.

Bad players at every role are easy to spot. Being able to help a group in any role is great also, but for me, tanking is too easy and not as exciting as dpsing. Even when you don't get credit for the numbers you pull. Something about knowin you are the main part of skipping phases and mechanics through your sheer ability to get through others and still put up ridiculous numbers.

Though I was told I was a great tank, still enjoy it from time to time ( leveling War to 60 next) for a different feel of a fight, I never found it truly challenging. Maybe because I play a dps, I know how I should position things etc to make life easier for the guys who are my muscle when I'm not.

I believe people are mentally wired specific ways in which certain roles suit them. I think I'm geared for tanking, but because of that, I don't find it super challenging (though I think drk could be really fun). It all boils down to fun, and the illusion that tanks have the most responsibility. While this can be true, it is also often nit the case

To me tanks are really only responsible for keeping attacking enemies attention, positioning and adhering to whatever mechanics. (Often times they get excluded from quite a bit, sometimes having to deal with tank targeted ones).

Dps are responsible for killing the attacking enemies, positioning and added mechanics.

Healers are responsible for keeping their shields and weapons alive, positioning and added mechanics.

I've tanked for ages, so it just feels kind of natural at this point. I started back in WoW about 10 years ago or so. I've also played healers quite a bit and have dabbled in DPS.

For me, tanking is the easiest role in this game. I literally marathoned Knights of Sidonia on Netflix over the weekend while I was grinding Law tomes. Most raids are pretty forgiving for tanks. Even today in Alexander I felt like I had less responsibility than the rest of the group outside of A2 which was a cakewalk anyways.

Healers, on the other hand, are hard as hell to play in this game. I still have nightmares healing learning groups in T5 as a WHM. A number of people thought I was a decent healer apparently, but I felt my hands tingling during raids.

DPS is pretty easy in dungeons, but they're very hard in a raiding environment. Everyone is watching your damage. Low DMG = low-tier DPS.

I think there's some kind of stigma or mysticism regarding the tank role (people seeming to think it's harder than it is). While I find my DRG to be a lot more relaxing than my tank in dungeons, raid-wise it feels much easier to tank -- Mainly because all you're really doing it trying to get your cooldowns right, hold aggro, and trust that everyone else is doing their job/mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

I did an Arum Vale today, to get my promotion for Storm. AV as we all know, sucks eggs and takes a little patience to do safely. On our way to the last boss, the Monk runs past me, pulls a bunch of trash and wipes the group, then accuses me of being too slow by way of apology. I dropped that group and immediately felt better.

People really need to get over treating tanks like waiters. I pay my $14.95 a month the same as everyone else, I'm not under some special obligation to be the punching bag for some antisocial twerp on a power trip.

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This is exactly how I see it.
If someone makes a sugestion to me or tells me in a nice manner that I'm doing mistakes or could do better I will always listen. If someone starts shouting or being disrespectfull I usually warn them one time to tune down. Sadly most of them don't get the message so they are going to need a new tank. I can easyly have fun in this game for 30 minutes without going into dungeons and I will certainly not play with people I don't like. Let alone tank for them.

Thankfully most of the community is really great and thats one of the reasons I really like this game.

I played PLD on and off through 2.0 because it's my favorite class, though I really couldn't deal with the pressures of tanking, especially in raids. I'm fine in 4 man content, but people make tanking so annoying (dps and other tanks in raids pretty often) that I would swap main classes for a few months but would find motivation to get back to Paladin but it always gets quickly squashed. PLD was my first 60 in HW but now Im a ninja main because I didn't wanna deal with trying to tank Alexander Normal/Savage or Ravana Ex.

Maybe one day we will have a soul crystal that changes dark knight to dps with a Scythe.

As for tanking, Being a new one from what I see, its a lot of responsibility. In fact I got criticized hard in a party. 3 of the players were calling me trash and to slow and I should quit tanking. I didn't lose Aggro. But I wasn't running through all the mobs because im still getting used to it. We completed without any wipes but it just wasn't a fast run the dpsers were also running grabbing even more mobs then had me pull the hate off them because they were on a speed run.

Then in a another party during the main scenario, Castrum... I said at the start, New to tanking show me the ropes our other thank quit right after and everyone just lol'ed. Its a new experience for me so I can't say its bad but There is responsibility and new mechanics you have to get used to and make sure you can keep hate.

I'm genuinely surprised more people don't like to tank. I started as a DPS Puglist when I first started playing but found DD decidedly boring and the dungeon wait times insanely long.

I'd never played an MMO like this until FFXIV but Marauder -> Warrior was probably the best choice I could have made.

Community was stupidly tolerant of me learning the ropes, offering tips mid dungeon, commenting on how I was already using positioning, etc. Dark Knight thus far as been the second best choice I've made, slightly more interesting to play given I'm now managing 3 assets and so far I've found aggro much more manageable....but that's likely because I now know what I'm doing.

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Originally Posted by Meow9000

I played PLD on and off through 2.0 because it's my favorite class, though I really couldn't deal with the pressures of tanking, especially in raids. I'm fine in 4 man content, but people make tanking so annoying (dps and other tanks in raids pretty often)

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Oh my god you reminded me of the Pain of all the level 50 raids. I Pretty much tanked them once and decided I actually like most of the community in FFXIV as much as I like a certain MOBA's community.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Nay, I meant the 'experience' of tanking is a curve, not the rotation and whatnot. Your comparison with the DPS rotation isn't what I meant but its exactly how you've described as a healer learning to precisely time their spells.

Those healers have to run a lot of things to get better and better with the timing and what to cast."

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Tell that to the DRG's and their jumps. Good ninjas that have their ninjitsu memorized and do it by hand to avoid the lag of macros to max out their dps. Blm's that perfectly have to time their dodges on bosses and casting times to max out their DPS. Not every DPS is 2.0 bard.

Well, tanks have a lot of respect from me, though I haven't had any trouble with tanks. But leveling GLA and MRD and DRK, I'm not sure I can hack it. I'm too disorganized, and feel pressured to not mess up. Tanking is a serious mental game. Oddly enough.. I find myself having better reaction time on my BLM than before I started my "tank training sessions".

I love tanking because you're visible. As a dps you're just a face in the crowd and the only time you know a healer is if they screw up. But you always know the tank, you're follwing them, watching them. I like standing out so naturally tanking is what I like.

As healer, as long as nobody dies or are frequently endangered, and you throw out some dps, most people think that's a good healer.

As DPS, as long as mobs are dying relatively fast, and you're not staying in AOE all the time, most people think that's a good DPS. Not to mention when the other DPS is a great DPS, you can be very bad yet not immediately obvious to the rest of the group.

As tank, any little mistake is immediately obvious. Healers like you to perform a certain way. Melee likes you to perform a certain way. Ranged like you to perform a certain way. You pull too fast you're a bad tank. You pull too slow you're a bad tank. Yet pull speed and pack size depends largely on the abilities and gear of the rest of the group, which you don't know.

So tanks are the most likely to get snide remarks or rude behavior or outright insults. That makes a lot of beginners crumble under the weight and move away from tanking. If the game provides an official DPS meter, you can be sure that there will be a lot more people willing to tank (and heal) because now DPS have the most visible and almost indisputable performance evaluation.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

As tank, any little mistake is immediately obvious. Healers like you to perform a certain way. Melee likes you to perform a certain way. Ranged like you to perform a certain way. You pull too fast you're a bad tank. You pull too slow you're a bad tank. Yet pull speed and pack size depends largely on the abilities and gear of the rest of the group, which you don't know.

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I've learned to just do whatever I want when I'm tanking. My queue times are instant, and even in the worst case scenario, I won't be missing out. I'll do what I feel is right for the encounter and the party, and if they don't like it, it's not my problem.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

I've learned to just do whatever I want when I'm tanking. My queue times are instant, and even in the worst case scenario, I won't be missing out. I'll do what I feel is right for the encounter and the party, and if they don't like it, it's not my problem.

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Thats how i feel. I do it how I wanna do it and if that ends with a kick then so be it, ill be in another run before you even get requeued. Thankfully ive yet to be kicked but if someone gets lippy i just turn my chat to battle and keep going.

It's because most people on this game don't have any social skills, and they will unleash that nerd rage on the tank or go for a more passive aggressive style of letting you know they're angry with the dot dot dot approach (...). I can't blame most people for not wanting to tank because most players are just intolerable once they start speaking. Just check the party finder sometime and see how many people let you know up front with the party finder comments that they're intolerable.

Most people would just rather attack their fellow party members than politely assess the situation and take the steps to correct mistakes. And the order of that blame goes tank > healer > DPS. No small wonder so many don't want to heal and even fewer want to tank.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Most people would just rather attack their fellow party members than politely assess the situation and take the steps to correct mistakes. And the order of that blame goes tank > healer > DPS. No small wonder so many don't want to heal and even fewer want to tank.

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Not yet encountered this behaviour. Seen the typical gamer lack of social graces/politeness in other aspects but never in the sense that anyone has been particularly overly aggressive when giving advice about gameplay.

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Originally Posted by TheCadian

Not yet encountered this behaviour. Seen the typical gamer lack of social graces/politeness in other aspects but never in the sense that anyone has been particularly overly aggressive when giving advice about gameplay.

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Not *when* giving advice about gameplay, but rather *instead* of giving advice about gameplay. Far too many people just want to passive aggressive ... the party chat or jump to outright attacking others in Duty Finder. Being at each other's throats doesn't help the group function better as a cohesive unit.

Yeah I would rather be tanking then wasting 50 minutes waiting in a queue(I tested it last night and wow it was such a surprise to see it take that long and of all things it was in the roulette too LOL) at least at that point I'm getting my money's worth out of play time.

It's super boring, especially as a Paladin.

Boring...? I find it eventful..

I love tanking, it's my favorite role to play.

Really bad party members make me not want to tank. Though after doing the level 60 raids and HW content, it's exclusively bad dps players that make me not want to tank things. My favorite being dps with hive weapons and full 180's failing to meet the enrage timer on Oppressor that make me most sad.

I've had a good time tanking, up until my experiences in the Cuff of the Father reminded me why it's not the most enjoyable job in something that's supposed to be entertaining.

Tanking is... hm.

Tanking is like throwing a party.

You spend all this time and effort planning out the entire experience from start to finish, worrying about new events, and handling things that happen. You set up the enemies so the DPS don't have to worry about getting damaged while they lay down all of the reckless destruction they can, and you make the healer feel like your champion, helping you rise above threats that you couldn't take on by yourself. Meanwhile, you're not damaging or healing as much as anybody else, you're just... arranging things. The host of the party is never the most funny or attractive or charming, they're just the one who facilitates the fun. It takes a very specific kind of person to find that interesting and rewarding.

I'm that kind of person for my friends, so it translates well into this game. But I can see why it's intimidating for most. It's hard to get over Tanxiety.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

Tanking is... hm.

Tanking is like throwing a party.

You spend all this time and effort planning out the entire experience from start to finish, worrying about new events, and handling things that happen. You set up the enemies so the DPS don't have to worry about getting damaged while they lay down all of the reckless destruction they can, and you make the healer feel like your champion, helping you rise above threats that you couldn't take on by yourself. Meanwhile, you're not damaging or healing as much as anybody else, you're just... arranging things. The host of the party is never the most funny or attractive or charming, they're just the one who facilitates the fun. It takes a very specific kind of person to find that interesting and rewarding.

I'm that kind of person for my friends, so it translates well into this game. But I can see why it's intimidating for most. It's hard to get over Tanxiety.

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I don't know what you're talking about. But when i play warrior....I let loose on the dance floor (unchain), get all the attention on me and make the guests (enemies) feel my awesome moves (vengence), let out a party shout (berserk) and break out the moves (Over power spam) and wear just about everyone out while doing all that arranging.