(Serious) White Mage and Scholar are equally balanced.

But yet scholars step on each others toes and white mages do not with stacking issues. If the jobs were balanced as some people claim then why not let scholars not step on each others toes?

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Originally Posted by Galdous

But yet scholars step on each others toes and white mages do not with stacking issues. If the jobs were balanced as some people claim then why not let scholars not step on each others toes?

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Double SCH already has it pretty good compared to double WHM since they can provide shields and DPS for days while covering AoE healing needs by coordinating well.

Double WHM doesn't bring any great healing advantage since 1 WHM is already enough to heal pretty much anything, and a second one is fairly redundant. Having double Holy for 8-man raid trash is fun, but otherwise bringing two WHMs is no better than having two SCHs.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Double SCH already has it pretty good compared to double WHM since they can provide shields and DPS for days while covering AoE healing needs by coordinating well.

Double WHM doesn't bring any great healing advantage since 1 WHM is already enough to heal pretty much anything, and a second one is fairly redundant. Having double Holy for 8-man raid trash is fun, but otherwise bringing two WHMs is no better than having two SCHs.

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...and also no *worse* than double SCH.

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Originally Posted by spelley

...and also no *worse* than double SCH.

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I didn't want to give ammunition to the WHM-bashing contingent, but I have to admit that I find double SCH much more appealing than double WHM.

Even without breaking down the pros and cons in detail, two SCHs=two fairies that will at least attempt to heal someone no matter how terrible the actual players might be.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I didn't want to give ammunition to the WHM-bashing contingent, but I have to admit that I find double SCH much more appealing than double WHM.

Even without breaking down the pros and cons in detail, two SCHs=two fairies that will at least attempt to heal someone no matter how terrible the actual players might be.

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or how terrible the scholars might be ;D

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

or how terrible the scholars might be ;D

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That's really what I meant lol ;)

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I didn't want to give ammunition to the WHM-bashing contingent, but I have to admit that I find double SCH much more appealing than double WHM.

Even without breaking down the pros and cons in detail, two SCHs=two fairies that will at least attempt to heal someone no matter how terrible the actual players might be.

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Interesting argument. Maybe scholar pets need nerfed instead of white mages buffed. Cleric stance reduces pet heals by 20% or so and require auto mode pets to respond to healing people at lower hp values. Would force scholars to learn to manage the pet properly like they should and prevent them from staying in cleric stance longer periods of time like white mages have to put up with.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Cleric stance reduces pet heals by 20% or so

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Wrong

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Originally Posted by Vlady

and require auto mode pets to respond to healing people at lower hp values.

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Wrong

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Would force scholars to learn to manage the pet properly like they should and prevent them from staying in cleric stance longer periods of time like white mages have to put up with.

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And also wrong

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Interesting argument. Maybe scholar pets need nerfed instead of white mages buffed. Cleric stance reduces pet heals by 20% or so and require auto mode pets to respond to healing people at lower hp values. Would force scholars to learn to manage the pet properly like they should and prevent them from staying in cleric stance longer periods of time like white mages have to put up with.

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Nerfing one class to make a less appealing class look more attractive by comparison? Even if WHM needed more window dressing (hint: it doesn't; many players already play and love the Job), throwing speed bumps at SCH won't make anyone's experience more fun.

Few players would hate SCH nerfs more than WHMs since any nerf to SCH would impact them. If anything WHMs would be expected to carry the healing load even harder since SCHs would likely have the same DPS expectation but less indirect healing power. Also, good SCHs already manage their pets to a high degree since they are fairly stupid and lazy if left to their own devices.

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Originally Posted by Galdous

But yet scholars step on each others toes and white mages do not with stacking issues. If the jobs were balanced as some people claim then why not let scholars not step on each others toes?

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Yet people, like you, think WHM is worse than SCH. Huh.

Anyway. If they are bad, then yeah they do.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I didn't want to give ammunition to the WHM-bashing contingent, but I have to admit that I find double SCH much more appealing than double WHM.

Even without breaking down the pros and cons in detail, two SCHs=two fairies that will at least attempt to heal someone no matter how terrible the actual players might be.

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You would then have major issues in end game content that actually require whm burst healing. Take 2 sch in to final coil of bahamut during progression (ie people still gearing up) and try and deal with something like mega flare phasing into giga flare. 2 sch certainly would not be able to deal with that.

But you have identified something relevant: shock horror, it turns out that this whm bashing is based purely on subjectivism, rather than objectivism.

I main sch but I do so love my whm. I don't think you should have to play both to appreciate them though. I don't get the whm hate. Whm is raw healing and I get stoked when I see those crazy crit heals. I feel pretty op when I whm because I can manage major damage bursts np too with regen and all of the cure variations. Sch struggles more at raw healing because they were designed more for mitigation. To me it's the more vanilla of the two, but sometimes I'm just in the mood for vanilla when I've had my fill of strawberry xD It's two different play styles in sch and whm, but that doesn't make whm any less valid of a healer. I wouldn't want to step into final coil without my whm buddy as a sch.

Why not both? (had to say it, probably is in everyone's mind)

Love both jobs, I had quite a rough transition from being a SCH main going towards a WHM, the lack of mitigation and not having an automated side healer fairy surely make you become more wary of health bars in comparison to just throw in a couple of Adlo's and Lustrates when warranted. For 8-man group content, if it's a premade group, I'll surely try to join with which healer job in not there, SCH and WHM just complement each other so nicely.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

You would then have major issues in end game content that actually require whm burst healing. Take 2 sch in to final coil of bahamut during progression (ie people still gearing up) and try and deal with something like mega flare phasing into giga flare. 2 sch certainly would not be able to deal with that.

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This was about more "average" scenarios since most players take their pick of roles into content like T13, but I have to disagree that two SCHs would be incapable of handling the Mega->Gigaflare transition while progressing; it would just mean well-timed use of skills and a buffed Whispering Dawn ticking from at least one Eos to help the raid recover just in time for Giga.

Naturally it's much simpler to have a WHM, but it can certainly be done without, even in progression.

While I only play as a Scholar as my secondary class, I find that I have no trouble keeping up with a White Mage when it comes to healing. It's just a matter of how you work the healing. Obviously, if you try to play them both the same way, then you're going to have trouble. They have different strengths to their healing, (I personally play scholar as more of a "preventive healing" style, focusing on keeping the shield up from Succor and Adloquium and using Sacred Soil often), but in the end, they're equal in capabilities if you have people playing them right. As to the whole 2 WHM vs 2 SCH debate I'm seeing above, I can see how two WHM would be better for immediate healing should both of them be competent at their job, since they do better at immediate healing, however from my experience, the most effective combination is just to have a WHM and a SCH working together. The SCH to handle the group and prevent further damage, while the WHM handles healing the major hits....

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

This was about more "average" scenarios since most players take their pick of roles into content like T13, but I have to disagree that two SCHs would be incapable of handling the Mega->Gigaflare transition while progressing; it would just mean well-timed use of skills and a buffed Whispering Dawn ticking from at least one Eos to help the raid recover just in time for Giga.

Naturally it's much simpler to have a WHM, but it can certainly be done without, even in progression.

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But then you've got megaflare -> rage of bahamut, which comes right after the tanks have been getting trucked and the party has been taking distributed damage from flare star.

Now in your previous example... sure, I'd be fine with double SCHs in WoD et al. It's a good point, the fairies will heal even if the players suck. But, that assumes you'll get SCHs who use fairies and in places like CT, that's not necessarily a safe assumption.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

... They have different strengths to their healing, (I personally play scholar as more of a "preventive healing" style, focusing on keeping the shield up from Succor and Adloquium and using Sacred Soil often), but in the end, they're equal in capabilities if you have people playing them right. ... The SCH to handle the group and prevent further damage, while the WHM handles healing the major hits....

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Seems like you get it. This is exactly how progression healing works.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

But then you've got megaflare -> rage of bahamut, which comes right after the tanks have been getting trucked and the party has been taking distributed damage from flare star.
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I didn't say it was easy as having a WHM, but it can be done.

Both can pretty much do what the other can, except SCH can mitigate more.

WHM more efficient at AOE healing, SCH will always be the better turret healer a single target.

In regards to the whole 2sch vs 2 whm, most of the time I would say 2 SCH wins as of now there isnt content where 2+ targets take heavy damage simultaneously. Turn 12 is a little exception but as it is easily manageable by a solo sch I wouldnt call it 'heavy'