Titan issues that need addressing.

People still complain about this fight?

see that plume under your feet?

dodge it

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

see that plume under your feet?

dodge it

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http://puu.sh/hoFoF/bd3b703b62.jpg

http://puu.sh/hoFqP/fdc6a3632f.jpg

http://puu.sh/hoFrQ/f6f448ba7b.jpg

Read the OP instead of tl;dr and jumping in the bandwagon, kthnx.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Move on bro. If it's such a big deal then I'm inconsequential as are my opinions. But yadda yadda last words or something like that right? Lol.

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1) Clearly not your bro.

2) Obviously I won't be moving on since I created this thread. Kind of silly comment for you to make, honestly. Enjoy that, though!

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

see that plume under your feet?

dodge it

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To be fair, by the time it renders you've lost up to 33% of the time available to dodge it.

As for me, I have nothing to complaint except I want player falls from cliff can be resurrect.
If no connection Issue and no bad luck everything will go as planned and smooth.

I can assure you the OP is incorrect. How do I know this? I successfully avoid plumes 90% of the time only running once the telegraph appears. The other 10% is the latency issue, or faulty issue with the fight's coding that might possibly affect only players with very specific types of connection, regardless of the quality of the connection. There is an issue on this fight that is out of player control, whether latency or whatever. To further prove my point, I'm going to list some other issues that I seem to only experience in this trial and no others. Keep in mind that I have top internet connection. Any one, or combination, of these issues happens every 2 runs, or every other run on a bad day.

1. Sometimes there will be a minor brief freeze on everything except you, then all of a sudden everything speeds up.
2. Sometimes when he does the 3 way Landslide, the 2 outer ones won't even show until a second after the middle one right as it goes off.
3. Simply getting hit while you are safe. See my 3rd sentence before you point to topic as the reason.

The only way topic would be right is if it only happens very uncommonly, in the 10% of the time plumes cannot be dodged. I have never seen anyone run before plumes appear on this fight and we dodge in almost all cases except very small percent.

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Originally Posted by h0tNstilettos

I can assure you the OP is incorrect. How do I know this? I successfully avoid plumes 90% of the time only running once the telegraph appears.

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We aren't talking about latency though. See this post that was posted earlier;

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

That's the graphical lag I'm talking about. It's caused by having a low-power graphics card or processor. WotL is extremely graphic-intensive; if your graphics card isn't all that great, there will be a short delay between when the cast actually starts and when it gets rendered on your screen.

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The animation delay also happens with Landslides, but mostly only in Extreme because of the multi-way Landslides that it is noticeable. Dodging ability isn't the issue being discussed here. The problem that was pointed out was the delay between the start of the cast and the animation of the skill being used. You can still dodge it by moving preemptively. Anyway, the issue is highly dependent on the machine you are using to play FF14. The animation delay is more noticeable on PS3s and computers that don't have a strong graphics card or processor. High-end PCs and the PS4 barely have this delay. o:

It is strange though, like you said. I also do notice this slight latency whenever I end up in Titan just as you pointed out and described. It isn't as bad when I'm doing say, Shiva Extreme, but only Titan that it becomes strange. Spooky. o_o

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Originally Posted by Gyson

2) Obviously I won't be moving on since I created this thread. Kind of silly comment for you to make, honestly. Enjoy that, though!

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I mean move on from trying to prove me wrong or something.

but you know...

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

yadda yadda last words or something like that right? Lol.

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Does everyone have to agree with you or something?

You see things under your feet. Move. Victory.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

We aren't talking about latency though. See this post that was posted earlier;

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I'm on PS4. Graphics is already optimum as there are no graphics cards. It runs as smoothe as a high quality PC with quality graphics card and max settings for this game. The PC version is only slightly superior due to things such as better load times. Sure, a high end gaming PC is superior to PS4 in almost every way, but a game cannot run at higher quality than its max settings allow regardless of how good your machine is, and at max settings there's no quality difference between the 2 except smaller issue, such as load times.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

The animation delay also happens with Landslides, but mostly only in Extreme because of the multi-way Landslides that it is noticeable. Dodging ability isn't the issue being discussed here. The problem that was pointed out was the delay between the start of the cast and the animation of the skill being used. You can still dodge it by moving preemptively. Anyway, the issue is highly dependent on the machine you are using to play FF14. The animation delay is more noticeable on PS3s and computers that don't have a strong graphics card or processor. High-end PCs and the PS4 barely have this delay. o:

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Yeah, I watched my friend play Titan EX on her gaming laptop and there was zero delay between the cast bar and the animation. It's most definitely a graphics processing issue; I've encountered both latency/lag and this graphical lag in TEX and the two present in totally different ways.

With latency, the cast bar and telegraph will appear at the same time and everything will appear to be just fine, except the delay between updating your position in the client and updating it in the server will mean that it will look like you were well out of the AoE (usually Landslide) but you'll get hit by it anyway. With graphical lag, the cast bar will appear, but the AoE telegraph won't show up for a second or two. You'll pretty much know you're screwed when graphical lag happens-- there isn't that moment of "aww yeah made it out."

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Originally Posted by SevenHeavens

see that plume under your feet?...dodge it

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

....You see things under your feet. Move. Victory.

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PPL please, go to youtube, watch, a lot of movies showing that thay dodge the plume very easy and a lot of time for their reaction. Just like what above 2 posts have said, simply they have no lag.

For ppl really have lag, when they see the plume on them while they are not running, they have already got hit at the server side. ^^;

I didn't read this thread in its entirety, but Titan HM/EX is one of my most favorite encounters of this game.

When I did my first few encounters with Titan, I thought for sure either I was a terrible player or my latency was an issue. (I'm on Hyperion and I'm in Japan, so I have higher latency by default than other players in NA region...)
However, months later since those first fights, I've got no problem with the mechanics of how the fight works and how to avoid stuff. My real complaint is that it's probably too mechanical. I kind of wish it was more random, but I understand the difficulty of some and the order of things help predict what's coming next.

I'm a PC player with an aged i7 machine paired with a GTX690 GPU (+SSD for load times).

Admittedly, I will make a mistake and get knocked off or get hit by a plume when I'm not tanking. It happens...

So what if it the telegraph animation renders after the cast bar starts? Just get over the fact that this is the way the fight is designed. Never mind the fact that Titan does a completely predictable rotation. In one way, the fight is made even easier by that fact. If you can't dodge with the telegraphing or watching the cast bar, then you can do it by memorizing what's coming next and moving ahead of time or at least being prepared to move. I don't see why a big deal is being made about a supposedly "broken" fight.

I'm pretty sure the root of the issue is that some players just have slow reflexes or poor memory.

I don't understand any of these responses. Nowhere in the OP was there a single complaint about this fight being too difficult. Several people have come back with inane responses about how it's really easy to work around the problem outlined in the OP.

Either it's some sort of server issue, or more probably (in my opinion) simply bad design. It seems like it was just a choice by the devs to begin the animations for a particular action's effect after the cast bar ends. The result is that, for example, Weight of the land casting time ends and then Titan's animation and the explosions trigger, but the explosions don't happen until Titan throws his hands forward. It's a relatively short animation, but the effect happens at least a quarter second later than would be expected. This happens with most things though. BLMs are always casting their next spell during the animation for the previous spell, for instance.

I believe the reasoning for this is that they don't want the animation to play in the event of a last second stun, sleep, death, out of area or line of sight, etc. To me though, it seems like it would make more sense in most circumstances to begin the animation early such that the visual effect of the damaging event (in this case weight of the land's explosion) occurs simultaneously with the cast bar filling to 100%.

Please understand that this isn't to 'nerf' the Titan fight(s) or any other, but simply to sync up the visual data that players are primarily using with the numerical account of what's going on. I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor for all parts of the game simply because it would make a lot more sense.

Considering "Dodge shit marked out on the ground" is part of every boss' mechanics, any time this stuff doesn't sync up it's an issue. Whatever it is, it's gotta be on the list of fixes needed and I hope it is.

Want to know whats funny? Player characters are completely opposite. Most of our moves do not apply to their target until the animation is over. Lmao. Benediction, for example.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Considering "Dodge shit marked out on the ground" is part of every boss' mechanics, any time this stuff doesn't sync up it's an issue. Whatever it is, it's gotta be on the list of fixes needed and I hope it is.

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Considering you are not lagging, if you move out of the aoe BEFORE THE CAST FINISHES, not before the animation finishes you will be fine.
nothing wrong with Titan.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Want to know whats funny? Player characters are completely opposite. Most of our moves do not apply to their target until the animation is over. Lmao. Benediction, for example.

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Gotta love them wasted benedictions.

Basically, people are saying that the game needs to fix their unfortunate networking circumstances for them. I'm sorry, but that's not the way this works.

Also, you should be watching the castbar to see what's happening and where you need to be - this is a necessity to clearing more difficult raid content later in the game and Titan HM was originally a very good way to force people to, well, play better.

As for the animations vs. damage thing, that is a conscious design decision that I'm very happy with. Other MMOs look weird when damage hits before an animation is even halfway done, but FFXIV gets it right by not applying damage and heals until our visual representation of the game world tells us that a target has been affected by whatever was done.

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Also, you should be watching the castbar to see what's happening and where you need to be

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Castbar tells you the former. It gives you absolutely no indication of the latter.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Want to know whats funny? Player characters are completely opposite. Most of our moves do not apply to their target until the animation is over. Lmao. Benediction, for example.

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Yeah but it's going the opposite direction so that makes some sense. We see it on our screen instantly - but it has to travel all the way to the server before it's recognized.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Castbar tells you the former. It gives you absolutely no indication of the latter.

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You can infer your required positioning by estimating how much is left of the cast. The telegraph will go up within fractions of a second of the castbar and you know you need to be off the telegraph by the time the cast completes. The problems arise when your view of the game is significantly behind the server, but I do agree that what's referred to as "the lull" shouldn't exist. That pause slows down gameplay and feels unnecessary.

I have to say I've never had problems with this. If my character is off a telegraph by the time it vanishes, I don't get hit.

EDIT: I think tightening up this system would be fantastic and would make battles feel more responsive, but I also think it can be a pretty dangerous thing to change a basic part of the battle system after two years.

I think more than a few critics of this thread are missing a point (which I thought I spelled out clearly enough) in the opening post.

First, I find it difficult to believe that most players monitor Titan's cast bar. Heck, going by the number of interrupt opportunities that pass by unchallenged on everything from the average mobs to dungeon bosses, I would argue that most players aren't watching cast bars anywhere. While it's fantastic that the fraction of people on this forum who are participating in this thread (which make up an even tinier fraction of the people playing the game) are apparently all cast-bar watching pros, as someone who is always tanking I feel like I can safely say that most of the time the only one staring at cast bars seems to be me (as I'm rarely able to count on the average player to help interrupt anything).

Second, this thread is not about what people should be doing - remember, "we're apparently all pros here" :rolleyes:, so nobody is dropping any insight bombs on anyone else. But for your average player (you know the one, that fellow who has died early *again* on Titan attempt #X) the issue pointed out in the original post is not making anything easier for anyone. It is very difficult to convince your average player that they failed to react in time when every visual indicator on their screen is reinforcing the idea that they *did* react in time. The average player is not going to want to hear a lecture about castbars versus telegraphs, or theories on video/processor lag versus network latency - on their screen they see themselves clearing the AOE-warning makers before it vanishes and/or explodes, and a) it is a lie, and b) it is a lie they're buying into. To argue with them that they were "late" at that point is to basically tell them to stop trusting their own eyes and the information being displayed on their screen. It doesn't work.

I would argue that tightening up the animations (especially for this trial) such that the castbar and animations are more in sync would be infinitely more useful towards helping players improve compared to a futile attempt to educate everyone in the game about the quirks and workarounds for this encounter. Simply put, if Bob sees his character die in an explosion he will make a real effort to move faster/anticipate better in the future. Where as Bob seeing his character die (when standing a safe distance from an explosion) is not likely to put much effort into improving at all, because in his mind the game got it wrong, not him. And when half your Duty Finder PUG is filled with Bob's having this issue, it sucks for everyone wasting their time on that run (regardless of who is doing it right or wrong).

We can argue about whether or not this can be fixed, but nobody should be arguing about whether or not it would be preferable to have things syncing up better (hint: it would be preferable). And yet some of the responses seem to be doing just that, which is more than a little strange.

Side note: for the memorize and move early crowd that is proudly chiming in on this discussion - I would also argue that you are essentially screwing over the rest of the party in an effort to guarantee your personal survival. If everyone is tightly stacked to minimize the amount of traveling distance needed to clear all those "Weight of the Land' telegraphs, you must realize that by breaking formation early (even a half second early) you're causing those telegraphs to spread out more, which in turn is making escape more difficult for the people who are waiting for the telegraph as a visual cue to start moving. Perhaps you don't realize this or you just don't care, but it is what it is.

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It is very difficult to convince your average player that they failed to react in time when every visual indicator on their screen is reinforcing the idea that they *did* react in time. The average player is not going to want to hear a lecture about castbars versus telegraphs, or theories on video/processor lag versus network latency - on their screen they see themselves clearing the AOE-warning makers before it vanishes and/or explodes, and a) it is a lie, and b) it is a lie they're buying into. To argue with them that they were "late" at that point is to basically tell them to stop trusting their own eyes and the information being displayed on their screen. It doesn't work.

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I think you've become one of my favorite posters on these boards.

Given the overall quality of posts on these boards though, I have to admit that's not a difficult standard to achieve.

I would like to throw out the following two moves for consideration. Mortal Gaze from Angra Manyu and the missles from Turn 8's The Avatar. These two moves do not inflict damage when the castbar is cast. Those two moves do infact consider you hit with the animation. This is exactly what OP is asking for. GO look up some WoD or T8 videos. You'll see that the effects are applied in perfect sync with the animation. This means that Square is capable of doing it and that all the other fights are off for some reason. Go ahead and test it yourself if you don't believe me. Angra Manyu, stare at him until even after the cast bar dissappears, if you flip around before the animation plays, you're golden! Same as for the missiles you have to stand in. The server doesn't declare the missiles inactive until after the animation plays of them exploding

Thats why cheap cheaters like Titan is on my "Black List"
I rather wait 30mins lockout than wasting my energy on this guy <,<

Whenever I was stupid enough and took a try it, ends with wipes.

Having them "tighten" the combat is a noble crusade to be sure, but the only thing I really see in this thread is making excuses for people who lack awareness. Most people get hit because they aren't paying attention or because they really are lagging, neither of which are things that would be addressed by adjusting the relationship between the castbar, telegraph, and the ability. Would it be nice if the animation and effect of more abilities coincided more with the castbar? Yeah, I suppose, though I'm used to it so I don't care either way. However, I don't see how it's too much to ask for people to learn to watch the castbar and not the animation.

OP you took on a lot of work for little gain in my opinion :/
The reality is you can move the cast bar to where you can see it. You can also focus target Titan to watch for casts. Of course neither of these things are necessary if you know titan's rotation. It doesn't change.
When you do Titan enough times you know when to clear away and when to cluster up. Knowing that not all players can understand why we stack just know that if that one guy is standing south of the cluster of players -your running North when plumes it.
Fight is not broken and they've actually increased the reaction time players get for plumes so I do believe the point is moot.

Not that it really is necessary for Titan EX, but what serious player isn't applying focus target to the boss?

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Originally Posted by Sove92

There is nothing wrong with the fight, if by Titan HM/EX you don't know the castbar determines whether you get hit or not (few exceptions exist), it's just you, not the game.

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I'm WHM on every primal fight(especially on Titan cause I find it hard to concentrate on DPS and dodging at the same time :/), I NEVER see his cast bars. I see the Weight of the Land underneath me, I move immediately. I am an Australian connecting to an JP server, I will always have lag and I can dodge every attack Titan does without even clicking on him >.>.

Learn to look at the screen OP.

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Originally Posted by Songi

"I was out of it!!!" - This one never gets old.

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My SCH friend never believes me OTL :p

He tells me to Git Gud. So I do.

Well I "Didn't read lol" all the thread but to the people who somehow defend this issue (like it's not borken etc.). Just imagine as if information on correct way to dodge was in official game manual, what would you think then reading it? Like:
You may notice that we have visaual indications of attacks in our game, but the truth is - they doesn't actually matter. If you want to succesfully dodge an attack you must watch the enemy's castbar and anticipate where attack will land and move out of it before the cast will finish. The actuall visuals for attack and areas affected may be shown to you sometime later.
Do you think this is something game company will either write in they manual? <_< No? Then it's broken.

Except it isn't broken, the system works just fine. If it were truly broken then you would have far more people failing at simple "don't stand in me" mechanics. Busier fights like Titan and Midgardsormr would be next to impossible. As it stands, most people are only getting hit because they lack spacial awareness and decent reflexes. The telegraph shows you were not to stand, the castbar shows you how long you have to get out of the way. It's not complicated. Players who can't comprehend that would probably still fail even if the animation and castbar lined up better simply because they aren't paying attention to obvious cues.

The only real excuse for getting hit is latency and that's not something "tightening" the combat would address.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Not that it really is necessary for Titan EX, but what serious player isn't applying focus target to the boss?

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Based on the number I see die daily to some sort of critical boss ability they failed to notice in time, especially while dealing with something else (e.g. an add), quite a few.

Seriously, how many times do you join any PUG through the Duty Finder and find yourself thinking you've been paired up with a squad of serious players?

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Except it isn't broken, the system works just fine. If it were truly broken then you would have far more people failing at simple "don't stand in me" mechanics.

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I think "broken" is the wrong word. I would certainly call the current setup "far from optimal", however. If the developers could resolve this syncing with the snap of their fingers I'm pretty sure they would prefer everything matching up properly. I don't believe it is "working as desired", so label that as you will.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

As it stands, most people are only getting hit because they lack spacial awareness and decent reflexes. The telegraph shows you were not to stand, the castbar shows you how long you have to get out of the way. It's not complicated. Players who can't comprehend that would probably still fail even if the animation and castbar lined up better simply because they aren't paying attention to obvious cues.

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I don't think that's a fair assessment. While you can argue that the telegraph shows where to avoid and the castbar shows you how long you have to get out of the way (and ignore the fact that a properly done telegraph could handle the job of both), when the telegraph is missing for the first 1/3 of the castbar's timer that's a pretty significant amount of time for important positional information to be delayed.

While it may not be a big issues for Titan-Pro#286 who has either gotten used to this or simply doesn't have this problem, you can be certain it is making things more difficult on newer players or those who have slightly slower reaction times/higher pings - players who might otherwise be able to dodge the blow had 100% of the warning been available (as it should be). At the very least you would have an easier time of convincing them they need to move more quickly had they seen themselves dying *inside* the explosion versus dying while standing 15 feet outside of it.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

There is nothing wrong with the fight, if by Titan HM/EX you don't know the castbar determines whether you get hit or not (few exceptions exist), it's just you, not the game.

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This right here. You don't need to watch the castbar at all, everything is perfectly dodgable by just looking at the telegraphs.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

This right here. You don't need to watch the castbar at all, everything is perfectly dodgable by just looking at the telegraphs.

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..UNLESS people are either slightly slower than you or working with a slightly slower connection, in which case not having the first third of the castbar going to waste could certainly be helpful.

I mean, I have to believe that if the designers decided that the cast time on these abilities should be X seconds long then the idea is for players to have all X seconds available to them for movement, not "whatever Elazu can work with". Kind of a safe bet, no?

Edit: By the way, the person you're quoting/agreeing with is trying to make the point that the castbar is critical, where as you seem to be implying it can pretty much be ignored (as if the information it provides isn't crucial for a successful dodge).

I'm surprised there hasn't been a post about this before. Oh wait, there has, a million

In all fairness, the actual number of related posts is 738,921.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

First, I find it difficult to believe that most players monitor Titan's cast bar. Heck, going by the number of interrupt opportunities that pass by unchallenged on everything from the average mobs to dungeon bosses, I would argue that most players aren't watching cast bars anywhere. While it's fantastic that the fraction of people on this forum who are participating in this thread (which make up an even tinier fraction of the people playing the game) are apparently all cast-bar watching pros, as someone who is always tanking I feel like I can safely say that most of the time the only one staring at cast bars seems to be me (as I'm rarely able to count on the average player to help interrupt anything).

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While I can sympathize with the idea of wanting cast bars and animations synced. If you're not paying attention to cast bars then how did you get past bosses like Coincounter and Chimera who's major attacks have no AOE indicators, and how do you expect to deal with mechanics in Coil many of which also have no AOE indicators? Paying attention to cast bars is a required skill to succeed in this game.

Also, it's the tanks job to stun bosses. Good DPS will hold off on using stuns during most boss fights so they won't build up immunity.

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Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

If you're not paying attention to cast bars then how did you get past bosses like Coincounter and Chimera who's major attacks have no AOE indicators, and how do you expect to deal with mechanics in Coil many of which also have no AOE indicators. Paying attention to cast bars is a required skill to succeed in this game.

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While, as the tank, I may be taking care of Dragon's Voice and Ram's Voice on Chimera, you can be certain there are many players on those runs who aren't even aware of these mechanics, and yet get through the trial successfully because someone else (e.g. the tank) was taking care of it. Point being, that the average player may not be paying attention to cast bars is really of no surprise to me.

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Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

Also, it's the tanks job to stun bosses. Good DPS will hold off on using stuns during most boss fights so they won't build up immunity.

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I disagree, and I don't think it's the tank's job exclusively. While you certainly don't want DPS firing stuns off at random and making it impossible to (example) interrupt Ifrit's eruptions, a well timed interrupt from DPS is both helpful and welcome. Using your Chimera example again (an encounter which I farmed over a 100 times), many a time my silence has been on cooldown when Ram's Voice popped up, only for a helpful Bard to save the day with a well timed and intentional Blunt Shot. I think in a perfect world the entire party should be using all of their abilities to the fullest (and intelligently) to guarantee success.

But, we're getting off track. :)

It has improved a tonne since the game was released. If you are still getting hit, then investigate a proxy service as your latency issues are something on your side.
I sub to a proxy/tunnel service (without it I can't dodge a thing) due to a poor route that my net takes to the servers. Without I get 450ms+. With it I get 250ms roughly, and that is plenty good enough to play this game.