Everyone complaining about no action on RMT, please read

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

^ That's a report that's given almost every month, let alone there's TEMPORARY bans, so that's not really solving the problem.

There are games (TERA, Vindictus, Blade and Soul) that impose IP bans for other territories because most RMT come from there.
Other companies like Trion, Blizzard, ANet have filters and report buttons on hand for players to prevent such things.

FFXIV with over 3million players or so STILL can't seem to get a grasp on how to handle RMT

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IP Ban will not work in the global version.
Or do you want to ban everyone who don't live in JP, NA or europe?

TC, if you think this banning accounts does *anything whatsoever* to combat the RMT spam, then Bender's "Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder." is the only appropriate response.

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Originally Posted by Caoihmin

As per OP's report from SE's site, it is clearly stated that the sellers are permanently banned and the buyers or "participants" are temporarily banned. A casual noting of the numbers involved and a dash of logic would assume this.

Unless of course, my reading comprehension skills need some brushing up.

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Fair 'nuff. Regardless, if S-E can detect 8,200 seller accounts (I am assuming non-advertising means accounts responsible for the actual transactions) but only 64 buyer accounts, it tells me that eliminating a buyer market via banning said buyer market is absurdly costly for minimal effect. I highly doubt there were only 64 RMT buyers last month, and those were likely only found due to excessive transactions

And, while these players certainly do deserve nothing but permanent bans, IMO, the net effects it has on both the real economy and player convenience is miniscule compared to the effects of silencing said advertisers - again, the more you choke supply, ironically, the more you choke demand's willingness to...demand.

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Originally Posted by Magictrix

And 13 years later... they still don't have it figured out.

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Yes but the filter actually worked which was the greatest thing since sliced bread hahaha

Though I wish it would have came sooner before they ruined burn circles, gods, NM hunting and archer rings.

It got to the point where I was sitting in town wondering what to do and having no activities to do at all.

The RMT killed anything and everything fun about the game, whatever they moved to next SE stripped it from the legit players just to stop RMT but at the cost of hurting legit players.

That is the reason it needs to be stepped on before nice things get released and then RMT ruin those nice things and us legit players pay the price when SE nerfs anything fun or even worth making some Gil off of or even having fun doing something to kill time.

I don't wanna be sitting in town again twiddling my thumbs wasting money on a online game because of gridlock gameplay and stuff to do.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

This thread is a waste of time.

People are trying to get something more than just bans, if you have played FFXI you'd have known banning the bots in those reports do not work and it is not helping, this happened in FFXI for a long time before they added a filter system.

You are complaining about legit players posting about fixing a issue, yet say quit complaining? flew right over your head.

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No,I posted because of the rash of posts by people who are relatively new to the game and act/post as if literally nothing is being done about RMT, when in fact something clearly IS being done - though it's apparent it's ineffective at eradicating RMT.

A lot of those posted lacked constructive criticism and were simply critival, dismissive and/or insulting with respect to the development team andYoshi-P. My aim was to remind folks like that that action is taken, ona regular basis, which itis. Meanwhile you say something flew over my head, ironic considering the number of people replying to this topic alone, who persist in complaigning that the bans happen on a monthly basis, despite the explicitly weekly reporting of bans.

Anyone who read my posts in this topic and others should already be well aware that I think more needs to be done - report as spam option, account wide blacklisting, harsher penalties for gil buyers, better spam filters on tells and/or some restriction on the number of tells that may be sent.But I also want people to realize that the task force that deals with this stuff has a high workload, and deserves more respect than they get for their efforts. It's not about playing white knight for SE, it's about maintaining a decent level of respect for the people with SE, and offering constructive criticism and suggestions.

If you think that anything other than respect and constructive criticism/suggestions will gain a response, then something clearly flew over your head.

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Originally Posted by SummerSkye

No, "bruh", it's not dramatic. It is the truth. There is no subscription based MMO out there that is as bad as this one in regards to RMT on the North American servers. You get some spam like this in free to play games, but they are FREE. Personally, "bruh", I love this game. I want to see it continue on the path it is currently on, but this RMT issue needs to be dealt with because I personally know four new players that were excited to play FFXIV until they saw that spam before they even got out of the first cutscene. Going /busy or digging through 47 spam messages for a real /whisper from a friend is unacceptable in a subscription based game. We need to be able to interact and we need new players.

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See, bruh, if you had "subscription based" MMO in your first post, I'd have agreed. But you said "no other MMO on the planet", which is simply wrong.

Its all in the fine details, bruh.

Suggested actions to curb RMT advertising and make their operation more expensive in order to raise the cost of gil which in turn reduces the number of buyers;

Blacklist entries are account not character based.
Automared 'Report as spam' option in right click popup menu when right clicking names in chat log.
Report as spam also automatically adds the reported player to your blacklist.
Better filtering of tells & better chat filters in general.
Option to suppress tells from people not in the same LS, FC or on a player's friend list.
Harsher penalties for buyers.
Add a 5 second delay between tells (this forum uses better flood control).
Cap the number of tells per day (restrictions on posting at this forum are aimed at reducing abuse by restricting post numbers based on character level).
Attack the prices of commodities RMT sell to generate the gil they use by introducing the sale of items such as shards via NPC to force a floor value on commoditues - this would increase the time taken to generate gil for resale, thus making gil more expensive and players less likely to buy gil.

Any other suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No,I posted because of the rash of posts by people who are relatively new to the game

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So you aren't complaining about the people who are making post about RMT?

Cause sure looks like it to me, nothing flew over my head I didn't make the topic.
I simply pointed out you are doing the same thing but in a different way.

Though they have a right to complain and so do you but as I said doing the same thing.

There are some topics just like yours ive seen telling people to listen or stop nothing different.

I rather people speak up about the issue then not speak at all.

As for those reports that the special task force post, seen those things in FFXI and I have said this before, ive seen hackers in FFXI still around even though those reports were being put up.

RMT jerrys, redapples and a few other botting teleporting groups from bismarck never touched with each report so its kinda hard for me to believe in those things.

also I am not trying to start problems with you don't take my wording as a form of an attack trust me I just talk like this.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Blacklist entries are account not character based.

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This is an amazing idea and would definitely start to curb the RMT plague. If I'm not mistaken, you can do this in other MMOs correct?

Yep, so instead of 3 RMT spam tells per 30 second interval we'll see 2.

It's not a matter of them not doing anything. It's a matter of giving us tools to make what they're doing more efficient. We KNOW they do try to combat it, but look around. CLEARLY.. It is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS, that it is not enough.

10,800 bans. Do you honestly think that is even remotely close to being within the realm of how many spam accounts there are?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Anti-RMT stuff.

Any other suggestions?

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Nope you pretty much nailed it. As long as they understand suppression of tells needs to be optional, and even then it might not be a great idea. Otherwise you're going to see friend requests from RMT take the place of tell spam.

Or Se could sell Gil, other games sell currency and they aren't plagued by RMT. If you think about it it would probably stimulate the economy, not everyone wants to craft but would like to buy certain items, lets say somebody wants to buy a house, they purchase Gil from SE then buy furniture etc off MB's, the crafters don't lose out and it may even be an incentive for people to keep playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Maxipep

Or Se could sell Gil, other games sell currency and they aren't plagued by RMT. If you think about it it would probably stimulate the economy, not everyone wants to craft but would like to buy certain items, lets say somebody wants to buy a house, they purchase Gil from SE then buy furniture etc off MB's, the crafters don't lose out and it may even be an incentive for people to keep playing the game.

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Injecting in-game currency into the game like that causes inflation, which is why its viewed as a bad thing, and unbalancing as SE stated it. I don't know of any MMOs outside of trash f2p p2w games that sell in-game currency. Thats not to mention with the runaway inflation this would cause you'd have to be constantly buying gil to keep up with it as each time someone purchased it, it would devalue the gil already in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

But I also want people to realize that the task force that deals with this stuff has a high workload, and deserves more respect than they get for their efforts.

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True, but I think it's SE's management who needs to realize that. This task force has a huge task to deal with and haven't been given the personnel or the software tools they'd need to accomplish it.

SE is really good at developing great games. They're nowhere near as good at actually running one as an online service. Maybe it's because their background is mostly in single-player games where development is the whole focus, with the nearest thing to support being a bit of marketing. But when they move into an MMO environment, they need to recognize that it's the other way around. Support is a bigger task here than development is, but SE has been scrimping on it every step of the way. We see this in everything from a botched housing system (because making one accessible to more than 1% of their players would require servers —a basic staple of running online games), to rampant RMT (because SE refuses to add either the personnel or software tools needed to let this task force be effective), to widespread harassment in dungeon runs (because SE's GMs have been told not to interfere with them or to enforce their rules —one of the prime reasons GMs exist in a game in the first place), and so on.

Yes, fixing all these problems would involve considerable investment; it takes tools, infrastructure, and personnel, all of which cost money. But that's why we're paying them every month for access rather than just the one time purchase charge like they'd get for a single-player game. It seems that support is getting whatever leftover crumbs the development staff doesn't need rather than being the company's main focus for this project.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

because SE refuses to add either the personnel or software tools needed to let this task force be effective

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And you know this how? I posted in another thread about this. Should check their Jobs page out cause it looks like they are hiring people.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

because SE refuses to add either the personnel or software tools needed to let this task force be effective

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And you know this how? I posted in another thread about this. Should check their Jobs page out cause it looks like they are hiring people.

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We know they haven't been given the tools needed to do their job because one of the primary tools that would tell them when RMT bots are spamming ads is a reporting tool for us as players to use to tell them that. If we don't have the right-click report tool yet, then they obviously don't have the sort of reports that such a tool could provide them.

We also know that as of the time the credits were being compiled, this task force didn't have the personnel needed for such a task, though if they are indeed hiring and it's for this, then maybe that's a hopeful sign. (I may sound pretty negative about their support's current state, but I'm perfectly willing to be optimistic regarding their ability to improve it.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

We also know that as of the time the credits were being compiled, this task force didn't have the personnel needed for such a task

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The listings of only 3 names is just pure speculation that those are the only 3. Is it possible that there are more who didn't want to be named? Maybe it is, or is it? Also reading the job description for GM, they also play a part in banning accounts.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

The listings of only 3 names is just pure speculation that those are the only 3. Is it possible that there are more who didn't want to be named? Maybe it is, or is it? Also reading the job description for GM, they also play a part in banning accounts.

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It still doesn't matter. It is apparently that this task force doesn't have the staff or appropriate tools to adequately combat this issue. If they did, RMT spam would not be near as rampant as it is. It really only requires you to use logic to see this.

I appreciate that they do try to get this issue under control. What I don't appreciate is SE blatantly ignoring every decent suggestion to allow the player base to help. It's affects us much more than it does them and if it is possible (which it absolutely is) to streamline reports and give us the ability to block accounts from contacting us with spam without limitation on how many of them we can add to a list, then it should be done to improve our quality of play. Rather than this ridiculous and stubborn stance that they've taken that apparently says, "we'll handle it, we don't need your input."

Uh clearly you do.

They seem to have gotten really bad with spamming their tells recently, have had to go on busy where before I never did. That said, I'd like to see an easier method to report rmt spam, like what you find in other mmos such as SWTOR and WoW, where along with the friend/party/blacklist options, you would also find the "Report Spam" option. It's just so time consuming to report it currently that more often than not, I just don't bother anymore and just go on busy instead and I'm sure others do the same. I definitely think making the reporting process simpler, streamlining it, would go a long ways to helping reduce the problem, but that's just my opinion of course. =)

But being a FFXI vet and seeing the effect the rmts had on that game, I'm not entirely surprised to see how bad the rmts have gotten in XIV either, I'm sad to say. I definitely do want to see them gone tho.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

It really only requires you to use logic to see this.

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Where is the logic in assuming that they only have 3 people working on it? You have one little piece of evidence as to who's doing what. What info other than the 3 names in the credits do you have? They aren't they only ones. A little digging around SE's website proves this otherwise. People are so quick to assume, and have no idea what is really going on. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

A few people on here post that "oh look what I noticed while watching the end credits". Most everyone then just jumps on that bandwagon jumping all over them saying they don't have the manpower, tools, software, etc.. All assumptions. So quick to point fingers, with nothing to really back up that claim. Show me where its stated that these 3 people are the only ones working on RMT.

This game is popular at the moment. Expansion just around the corner. People are buying Gil, that much is obvious. AS the cash flows to the sellers we will keep having spam. Anything short of disabling all communication except direct contact, will not work. There is always a way. Put in tell filters, they'll use shouts, they already do. Put in level restrictions, they'll just level the bots. Put in friend request restrictions, they alienate new legit players.

No matter what is done there will be a counter-point to it.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Where is the logic in assuming that they only have 3 people working on it? You have one little piece of evidence as to who's doing what. What info other than the 3 names in the credits do you have? They aren't they only ones. A little digging around SE's website proves this otherwise. People are so quick to assume, and have no idea what is really going on. Assumption is the mother of all f-ups.

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One thing I am aware of, SE looks for rmts using different methods than other Western mmos tend to use. SE uses complex algorithms to look for suspicious behaviors within the game, i.e. selling too many items to a vendor, and their focus from my experience in XI seems to be less on tracking down transactions than the behaviors that rmts use to get the gil that they sell.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

Yep, so instead of 3 RMT spam tells per 30 second interval we'll see 2.

It's not a matter of them not doing anything. It's a matter of giving us tools to make what they're doing more efficient. We KNOW they do try to combat it, but look around. CLEARLY.. It is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS, that it is not enough.

10,800 bans. Do you honestly think that is even remotely close to being within the realm of how many spam accounts there are?

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10,800 accounts means up to 66,400 spam bots created per day. 66,400 divided equally amongst 64 servers would be ~1037.5 spam bots per day. 1037.5 spam bots per day should mean between 43 and 44 new spam bots per hour.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

stuff

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I don't believe I said anything about se only having 3 people working on the team that deals with RMT. The logic is in seeing whatever number of people they do have and the methods they use is obviously insufficient.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

I don't believe I said anything about se only having 3 people working on the team that deals with RMT. The logic is in seeing whatever number of people they do have and the methods they use is obviously insufficient.

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How many people and what method do they use to find the end of a circle?

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

How many people and what method do they use to find the end of a circle?

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You can't claim the credits are insufficient evidence unless you can provide evidence that supports your claim... This is how debate works.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

You can't claim the credits are insufficient evidence unless you can provide evidence that supports your claim... This is how debate works.

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I did in another thread.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I did in another thread.

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You provided a list of employees direct from SE? No? That's what the credits are, so you have to provide evidence with those standards to refute.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

You provided a list of employees direct from SE? No? That's what the credits are, so you have to provide evidence with those standards to refute.

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How many GM's were listed?

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Originally Posted by YukariOro

It's just so time consuming to report it currently that more often than not, I just don't bother anymore and just go on busy instead and I'm sure others do the same. I definitely think making the reporting process simpler, streamlining it, would go a long ways to helping reduce the problem

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The lack of reports because most people won't bother is only one of the problems with the current reporting system. The other is that, by having players fill out all the details, it's possible to lie. As long as it's possible to send a false report, every report needs to be investigated before it can be acted on.

If the process were properly automated, with the software itself pulling the message and sender and all the other details it needs directly from SE's system, then the only investigation needed would be to determine whether that message is indeed a violation of the ToS, something which can generally be seen at a glance.

So it's obvious from our end of the reporting system, which is both cumbersome and falsifiable, that the Task Force's end of that reporting system is also needlessly cumbersome. We have a reporting system where it's both difficult to report spam, and then difficult for SE to act on those reports. It's no wonder that the final action is too minimal or too late to be effective.

They need a streamlined automated reporting system and a full sized team that can have someone always on duty to monitor and respond to those reports (as well as spending the rest of their time investigating suspicious activity, since although spam could be dealt with immediately, some of the cheating bots would still take some effort to reliably identify).

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

AS the cash flows to the sellers we will keep having spam. Anything short of disabling all communication except direct contact, will not work. There is always a way. Put in tell filters, they'll use shouts, they already do. Put in level restrictions, they'll just level the bots. Put in friend request restrictions, they alienate new legit players.

No matter what is done there will be a counter-point to it.

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No, the spam won't continue as long as players are willing to buy gil. The spam will continue as long as the spam bots can reach enough of those players that their spam brings in more money than it costs.

Every spam bot costs the gilsellers money. If it gets to spam tens of thousands of players for a week or so before being banned, it will find enough gil buyers to bring in a return on that investment.

If it's banned for its first /tell message and before it's had a chance to send out more than half a dozen others, then it won't find enough gil buyers to bring in a return on that investment.

Note that both of those scenarios end with the spam bot being banned, but just the change in timing means that in one case it was profitable and will keep getting replaced, whereas in the other case it's not profitable and once there are enough that being unprofitable is a clear pattern, they won't be replaced anymore. Gil sellers aren't going to keep spending money on bots that don't bring them back more money.

This is why the efficiency of the reporting and banning process is so important. Bans only work on spam bots if they're immediate.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

How many GM's were listed?

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You mean gms that forward reports to the stf? Dunno, didn't count, also irrelevant. The relevant question is "how many listed in the stf" which is 3. The stf, acoording to SE, is the only group investigating RMT. It is the task the "special task force" was created to work on.

The STF was created to help assure players that the issues of rmt were being combatted and that it will not continue to harm the gaming experience.

People are angry because this isn't being done to satisfaction. It is sad that the running answer to this by the players is social isolation. And if the rampant tell are an indicator that rmt is increasing in turn, it is likely that it is influencing other activities, which mean the stf's efforts are insufficient.

Meanwhile, the pressures of clearing content and buying things before the expansion mounts....

I finally had enough and moved tells to their own tab and disabled notifications.

Goldfarmers can continue spamming but I'm not listening any more. It's a shame that the only way to block this crap is to cut off all communications from all players, but in the absence of any actual effective action I'm not left with much choice, I'll just retreat into my little bubble and only communicate with FC and LS members. Way to build a community, devs.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

How many GM's were listed?

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It doesn't matter how many are listed. Do you think they update the credits every time they hire someone? I seriously doubt they do. What matters is end result. whether its 3 people or 300 people the outcome right now is "not enough". Its not enough because there are tools they could put into place like,

click or right click -> report RMT/Spam -> snapshot of chat is taken, sent to GM RMT taskforce with a report. Then all they have to do is look and see what it is = /banhammer.

But we don't have that. They want to use complex algorithms and whatever other methods they employ... Which would be fine. IF they were efficient. They are not, if they were the RMT issue would be getting better, not worse. Thats the point here. Everyone else is discussing how they could go about fixing the problem and all you seem to content to do is argue about how many people at SE are on the job. It isn't important.

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Originally Posted by Havenae

all you seem to content to do is argue about how many people at SE are on the job. It isn't important.

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Who's arguing? All I did was make a point that 3 people are most likely not the only ones working on the issue. But people seem content with jumping all over that because I brought up a different view. I like to have all facts before pointing fingers and blaming this or that.

We can come up with ideas all day long till our fingers bleed. What I personally believe about RMT and how they handle it is just another opinion and assumption. I don't have all the facts, nor do I know what they are actually doing, none of us do. Everything here will just be brushed aside and end up like all the other RMT threads.

RMT spam is easily ignored. That much I do know.

Question is are there anyone working the week ends to deal with rmt? As there has been 2 bots farming ornery karakul all week end preventing legit players from farming mats. 4 player FC that have chocobo companions and appear to be spirit bonding. More thought given to some of the toons names with the exception of chocobos having the same names. Contact Us apparently not working as no new reports even showing up in history. No response while my game enjoyment is being interfered with. Yea, I can see why players are frustrated and feel like nothing is being done. I try to be patient, but seriously 2 days now I have been trying to farm.

I also believe those selling wins or carries/loot drops contribute to rmt in varying degrees. Who knows? Perhaps some sell gil to the spammers too.

People who think SE is doing all they can:

http://img.prntscr.com/img?url=http:...om/ywQh5BV.png

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Yeah and 10,000 new bots have popped up according to reports LOL YAY! Go go gil sellers AND buyers awaaaaaaaaaaaay!

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Originally Posted by Gralna

fixed that for ya, only real way to fix the RMT issue, sadly it'll never happen.

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Fixed that further for ya. It won't end until BOTH are aptly gotten rid of

Again, attacking the demand market is impractical and costly compared to attacking the supply market, which also damages the demand market. Any algorithmic process of detecting and punishing the demand market will cause little to no visible effect due to how versatile and flexible the demand market's processes for hiding itself are, while the supply market uses easily-predicted measures and doesn't even bother trying to hide itself.

Do you people even economics or do you just want a witch hunt?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

People who think SE is doing all they can:

http://img.prntscr.com/img?url=http:...om/ywQh5BV.png

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This had to be done.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/d79082d5...c7afo1_400.gif