Pure RNG is the worst thing ever.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

RNG is not an equalizer. Someone can either do it 20+ times and someone else does it once. Sometime has to work hard for all of it and then there's someone who doesn't.

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Nobody get an Atma in the first FATE everytime. Over time (8*12 Atmas) it evens out, give everyone the same average amount of tries

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Yukiko, the entire basis of your argument is the same person will somehow perpetually land in the same place in an algorithm or their 'dot' will continually land in the same place becoming 'trapped' in some rng nightmare pattern. That is a faulty assumption. The odds of you landing in the same place wen their are 100s of thousands of players completing content at unpredictable intervals makes where your 'dot' lands a random factor in and of itself. Thus over time still resulting in random results. That basic assumption is where you are running off the rails.

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You fail to understand what i am trying to tell you:
Getting the same spot twice in a row, you keep telling me to try it again and again... does that help me to feel less betrayed? Getting the same spot 100 times again (must not be in a row when we use a simpler grafic like left, right and middle) and you keep telling me try it 1000 times, you wont feel the 100 any more... Its like i will die when a lightning bolt hits me, but dont worry, next time it will not hit me again...

Statistics evens out, true, but each DOT is a living beeing!
We are not talking about "statistics" true or false, we are talking about RNG and games where you are supposed to have fun! It is basic in programming to add a net for such things as RNG, mostly you take a PRNG add a net and you will get a TRNG... Depending how you programm the net you can be more or less direct as of increasing the odds with each failure! You even have choises between workarounds and failsafe systems! The only question we should ask is why SE refuse to add such things and rely solely on RNG alone!

One living beeing can not try 10 years with 10.000.000 tries just to get a better statistic... you have to consider total numbers and thats what i was trying to tell you all the time! Its not like oh, the RNG is odd, lets add 1000 jmore tries and it becomes even!

Furthermore you miss one important point: Its not like we just have "one" RNG and rolling once. Square Enix sucessfully let us roll once to be able to roll for the real thing... not even that on some content we have a third rolling to even let the 4th chest appear (1st appear or not, 2nd desired item or not, 3rd highest roll against all others - just a sidenote, the more players the more RNG rolls decreasing your chances - you can call it a indirect 4th roll)

Edit: Lets say you have 5000 players, one RNG:
Left is bad, middle is average and right is good
Result is 30 Players left, 50 players right and others in middle some more to left while some more to right...
You don not have "repeat" as you always try to say i am suggesting you - alone from that run the SYSTEM itself does have 30 players who are "dead" if we compare with the lightning bolt... it is the SYSTEM not the player you have to take into account... i know its a bit paradox because at end you doing all that for the player and against the system...

My only question about RNG is what is worse. RNG for Relic farming, or Destinys Loot system? If you think its bad here, wait until someone unintentionally one up's RNG with even more RNG.



http://media.giphy.com/media/G4BWzPolEh5cI/giphy.gif (my thought on RNG)

It is not just RNG for loot drops but pertains to almost everything that has RNG component in it - crafting and gathering for example.

The problem I see is that SE has devised a RNG system that has poor reflection of the probability given for small sample sizes. For example, if you had a 90% chance of a HQ, by average you should be able to craft 9 out of 10 times HQ items. But when you craft just two times, it is possible to fail a HQ 1 out of 2 times, which makes HQ chances at 50% and not 90%. The same goes for mining too - I can have a 95% probability of a successful mine but can fail 1/5 (20%, not 5%) times at a particular mining node. There should be a mechanism to make this highly improbable. In other words, narrow the deviation from the prescribed probability more.

What I am saying is that SQ should go look at their data for small sample sizes (e.g., small number of attempts). That is because most things people do are usually done in short burst attempts (most people have only such small level of patience). SE should not be thinking that the probability approximates after 1000 attempts or something - it should approximate closely for all number of attempts (from a few to several thousand).

Ok, let's look over this:

1 - Relic: massive amounts of RNG involved.
2 - Raiding: RNG involved.
3 - Triple Triad: RNG involved. (Random rule trololol)
4 - Chocobo Races + Breeding: massive amounts of RNG involved.
5 - A lot of Vanity items such as ponies: massive amounts of RNG involved.
6 - Master Crafting: RNG involved.
7 - Fishing: massive lolroflhahalmfao amounts of RNG involved.


What does not involve RNG in this game? Trash dungeons, trash crafting and botanist/miner.

this whole game is built around RNG, just like the koreans and their mmo's

lets hope they read this thread and make improvements/changes in 3.0 and onwards

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Originally Posted by bloodSp3c

this whole game is built around RNG, just like the koreans and their mmo's

lets hope they read this thread and make improvements/changes in 3.0 and onwards

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Oh please they do this RNG because they know people will stay until they get the item. If people stay they get their money. They did say they are making changes to the loot system in Alexander but i can't remember if they said what the changes were.

RNG is not bad at all in this game. Example, I've been doing Indolent Imperial TT for Gaius card for two days over and over, have probably 75-100 other cards except that one from him so far. It sucks, but I've only been at it for two days. Back in XI there were NMs you would literally camp for two days straight for a single chance to claim and a terrible drop rate to boot. People need to understand that the grind and RNG in this game is very tame. Working on something for a few days is nothing.

Also, everything RNG is nothing you NEED. You can get a gaurenteed 130 weapon from T11 for example. Or gaurenteed 130 armor every week from poetics and CT ST WoD quest. Which you can beat everything in the game with. So its really just putting in extra work for something you just personally would like.

I'd agree with getting Option 2: A Weighted Random Number Generator System. A bunch of people brought this up a while ago, when Atma were first introduced (and the % was even lower than today). Specifically:

1. RNG Drop Rate + Increase Percentage(%) Chance for [Item] drop for Every Successful Clear (FATE, Dungeon, etc.), Until it Finally Drops.

For example, let's say the starting Drop Rate is 1% for an Atma. If you do a FATE and nothing drops, Square should add, say, +2% to your chance, so the NEXT FATE you do now has 3% (Base 1%+2%) chance. So at the most, you'd have to do 50 FATEs in the zone (+2% x 50 tries) to finally get your Atma Stone (if you had the worst luck).

This allows Yoshi P to keep that "Random Number Generator" / "Lottery" feel and grind (ugh), while providing a safety (and sanity) net for Players. So if you have bad luck, at least eventually you'll get the Atma to drop within a reasonable amount of time. The Actual Bonus Percentage per Win/Clear can be balanced to whatever feels fair (+2%, +5%, etc.).

This Hybrid approach is the best of both worlds. It's frustrating that Yoshi P and the Dev Team refuse to consider something like this; and just stick with a simple, archaic "Pure RNG Only" system (just keep banging your head against the wall, "rolling the dice" and hope one day it drops). It's awful.

Someone on Reddit posted that they ran Ultros 272 times(!!!) before they finally got their Triple Triad Card to drop. Seriously SE?!

This needs to change in 3.0.

You can get a gaurenteed 130 weapon from T11 for example. "This Statment is FALSE" You are not gaurented to finish T11 or get the weapon of your choose. please see: T 11 gives out Encrypted Tomestones and Wires which can be traded in to upgrade Ironworks weapons. Side note: Some Ironworks weapons have worthless stats for certain jobs, Fact. Also see: Iron works weapon don't have the custom stats that Relic weapons have Fact.

So its really just putting in extra work for something you just personally would like. This is pure personal opinion and is not fact.

ps: Make you own mind up on how you choose to arm yourself. Get the facts.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

You can get a gaurenteed 130 weapon from T11 for example. "This Statment is FALSE" You are not gaurented to finish T11 or get the weapon of your choose.

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Are you serious? You do get a guaranteed weapon if you get both drops from T11. The assumption he's making is that you finish it and has that much poetics, which is not the concern of his statement. You get the tombstone and the Carbontwine, you're getting an i130 weapon.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Side note: Some Ironworks weapons have worthless stats for certain jobs, Fact. Also see: Iron works weapon don't have the custom stats that Relic weapons have Fact.

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I've seen relic weapons with the most useless bundle of stats on it....and not just put on because they wanted to complete Novus.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

So its really just putting in extra work for something you just personally would like.
This is pure personal opinion and is not fact.

ps: Make you own mind up on how you choose to arm yourself. Get the facts.

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Yes, and understand that all that you said is your personal opinion as well. Relic is putting in extra work for something that is specialized with the stats that that player wants the most. A WHM Nirvana with max Crit/SS isn't ideal but if that's what they put on it, it's what they worked for. It's personal and by no means the best that a WHM should have.

Also fact. A lot of players could care less about the customizable stats. I see a bunch without any relic and think that Poetics and Dreadwyrm are the greatest ever since sliced bread when all I see are gross stats.

Guys, before you waste your time with this Fraensera or w/e his name is, I am just going to leave this here.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-it-DEX/page2

What?
And allow you to spend less time on the game and thus less time subscribed?
Why on earth would they do that?

Zodiac quest will make you quit Final Fantasy XIV. I ask you now...abandon it already. There are better things to do in this game.

To be honest I'm getting sick of RNG it's pretty much driving me from playing anymore. I'm losing so much motivation due to it. 80% success rate for HT+SH2 for synths and it blows up like it was a 20% chance. Key Item from dungeons for zodiac books, going 40 times in sastasha HM with no KI reward and 20-30x in other dungeons. Now I'm trying to change pace and farm TT cards and this is my result every freak'n window for the past 3 days.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/ec5d945b...m0ito1_400.jpg
I've about 40 Pap&Yda cards from this guy. Obtained Ramuh twice. Won over 200 matches against him. Still no Kan-E card yet. Tho someone else wins 3 times and obtains it. 0/50 in Ultros fight too for Terra and saw people who don't even play TT get the card multiple times. Preformed party for Ultima farm went 0/15 and a guy in our party got the card 3x in a row. There's a fine line for making someone work towards obtaining something with seeing a reward and setting up a system where people lose hope because they've worked their butt off for so long and see no reward and watch people who do little around them obtain what they work hard for easily. So here's a thought why don't we let SE's paychecks be dished out by their RNG system? I'd love to see the tunes they sing when the guy who works 8 hours gets a $1500 paycheck for the week and the guy who works 60hrs+ gets a $25 paycheck.

Yea I'm venting. But seriously this is just getting annoying and I know I'm not the only one who feels it.

From a player perspective: Yes! RNG is the embodiment of all evil and should be stamped out furiously.
from a business perspective: no. RNG is a effective business strategy that has been proven to work. it keeps subscribers simply because it gives them just the tiniest bit of hope that they will eventually get that drop so by the time it happens they have their scope set on something else (also RNG based) to work on. it's like a massive wheel, and your the mouse making it spin round-and-round. If they didn't, the majority of the player-base would get the majority of their in-game goals accomplished with little to no trouble and then *gasps* stop playing! we can't have that now can we?

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Originally Posted by Malakai

So here's a thought why don't we let SE's paychecks be dished out by their RNG system? I'd love to see the tunes they sing when the guy who works 8 hours gets a $1500 paycheck for the week and the guy who works 60hrs+ gets a $25 paycheck.

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I really like that idea. They seem to think RNG is fair, so why not?

Over 300 shiva extreme farm runs and no pony.
Well, someone will go through the same or even worse. Oh man that cracks me up. How lovely. :)

Im just going to wait for the expansion when they reset all the gear and nonthing mattered.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

So here's a thought why don't we let SE's paychecks be dished out by their RNG system? I'd love to see the tunes they sing when the guy who works 8 hours gets a $1500 paycheck for the week and the guy who works 60hrs+ gets a $25 paycheck.

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Many using the argument that players will stay in the game longer because time they have to spend increases with RNG ... i wonder if the one who worked 60hrs for $25 paycheck will stay :rolleyes:

*Facepalm*

Zodiac quest was put in the game at the request of the silly players who wanted a more difficult overly-tedious quest for obtaining their shiny relic weapons, so that they can have a superficial e-peen to wave around sense of accomplishment.

It's not likely going to change to non-RNG...you know, like any other weapon in the game you obtain, in which the only RNG is which class it decides to drop it for, or the sol/poetics tomes you get for trying, which act as a soft cushion to not make your time playing without benefit.

And seeing as raid loot is always going to be better/equal to the latest grindhorse zodiac upgrade avaliable, I don't see the point in crying about it.

I know RNG is RNG. But it's sad that total of 50 runs now for 3 dungeons excluding 1 dungeon that required the first 2 dungeons drop, it has no senses of progress. My real total for all Zodiac drop is 104 runs. I'm dipping down to 10% drop rate and one dungeon is below 4% drop rate...

RNG is the real endgame.

Took me like 1,000 fates to get all of my Alexandrite, which I'm doing because my Dreadwyrm stick refuses to drop.

The claim that relics are for casuals is uneducated and is only made by people who haven't done both, or who got faceroll lucky with their drops. I'd say that relics are as big, if not more of a grind than getting that Dreadwyrm weapon, since it doesn't really take that long to clear FCoB(if you're decent), whereas a fully upgraded Zeta relic, especially for someone starting from scratch, takes several hundred hours of time, even with average RNG.

I suppose you can say that, "it's not your my fault you have bad RNG", or, "this game's RNG has nothing on *insert random game here*", but it doesn't change the fact that relics are huge, boring grind, while FCoB is at least interesting.

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Originally Posted by x-_-ILLUSION-_-x

RNG is the real endgame.

Took me like 1,000 fates to get all of my Alexandrite, which I'm doing because my Dreadwyrm stick refuses to drop.

The claim that relics are for casuals is uneducated and is only made by people who haven't done both, or who got faceroll lucky with their drops. I'd say that relics are as big, if not more of a grind than getting that Dreadwyrm weapon, since it doesn't really take that long to clear FCoB(if you're decent), whereas a fully upgraded Zeta relic, especially for someone starting from scratch, takes several hundred hours of time, even with average RNG.

I suppose you can say that, "it's not your my fault you have bad RNG", or, "this game's RNG has nothing on *insert random game here*", but it doesn't change the fact that relics are huge, boring grind, while FCoB is at least interesting.

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You don't even have to see foot in a fate for Alex drops....

Just do maps with soldiery/daily expert or buy direct with hunt point. There are 4 ways to get alex. 3 have 0 rng in them, but you chose fates and whine about rng? People make no sense.

And dreadwyrm isn't a grind at all really. Relics are a grind. DW is a skill based drop beating 13 with rng on which. They are specifically designed for different purposes. Time vs skill. If you are skillful, DW is easy. If you are not, then it's virtually impossible to get at all.

I don't know why your complaining about RNGesus OP, maybe you just have bad luck. If you take away RNG system, this game will be console games where everything is "given" to you; and increasing drop-rate is no excuse, coz people abuse FATE. RNG is always and have been placed in MMO games, it balance things out. If you don't like grinding then don't do zodiac. RNG brings diversity in arsenal in the game. Sure i had to run Sas HM 40x for my drop, it was grindy but not painful coz it was productive, I got soldiery, desynth items, and also help new people along with the grind and it eventually dropped for me. People whine about RNG coz they see shiny wep and they want it but don't wanna do the grindy stuff and deal with RNG.

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Originally Posted by Seaverin

I don't know why your complaining about RNGesus OP, maybe you just have bad luck. If you take away RNG system, this game will be console games where everything is "given" to you; and increasing drop-rate is no excuse, coz people abuse FATE. RNG is always and have been placed in MMO games, it balance things out. If you don't like grinding then don't do zodiac. RNG brings diversity in arsenal in the game. Sure i had to run Sas HM 40x for my drop, it was grindy but not painful coz it was productive, I got soldiery, desynth items, and also help new people along with the grind and it eventually dropped for me. People whine about RNG coz they see shiny wep and they want it but don't wanna do the grindy stuff and deal with RNG.

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Amazing how popular relics have become at the moment and how many want them after this update. I completely agree with your assessment.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Amazing how popular relics have become at the moment and how many want them after this update. I completely agree with your assessment.

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They want them only because they are on par with the i135. Ilevel is honestly what so many people see when it comes to these weapons. In another relic update, they'll be second best as they usually are and people will once again abandon ship with them. Lol

I agree with the OP and personally hate pure RNG (like atma or zodiac dungeon drops) due to the bad luck I've had with it. I hear success stories all the time and that's great but my personal experience has not been a good one. I think there should be solid, clear progression when it comes to things like the zodiac weapons. It shouldn't take one person 100+ hours and another person 10 hours to complete a step, that's just not fair at all in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Ok, let's look over this:

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What does not involve RNG in this game? Trash dungeons, trash crafting and botanist/miner.

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Umm...

1) Tomestone gear - complete dungeon, get set amount of tomestones, buy gear for set cost
2) Primal Focus
3) Beastmen Reputation / Ehcatl Sealants
4) Daily/Weekly Hunts
5) ST for Sands/Oil
6) Diamond Dust
7) CT Quest for Carbontwine/coat
8a) Alexandrite from Mysterious Maps.
8b) Buying Mysterious Maps for Tomes.
8c) Getting Mysterious Map from Daily Quest.
9) Animus books
10) Nexus/Zeta Light

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Originally Posted by Seaverin

If you take away RNG system, this game will be console games where everything is "given" to you;

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how is Nexus given to people?

I think most people complaining about RNG including me is that RNG is a roadblock purpose, its' not progression. A Fixated % drop rate is not a progression thing. Maybe a new curve RNG the more you farm you gain better chance to drop. That's more like it.

One person can be so lucky to get a green light drop, move on progress up the quest line. Other bad luck, red light tells you nope. You stay here keep farming the same thing over and over.

This is why there is no such thing is lazy or easy mode. How do you feel that someone actually doing end game Final Coil and still farming for relic drops almost countless hours. While the other one haven't been on for 1 week and hop on get the relic done. Do they deserve that? RNG tell them you deserve to have the final piece of the game even you only play 2 hrs per week. Which is why it puts off a lot of people with a bad RNG formula, it makes no sense and it's not a progression mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

Now as for the RNG in raids, that needs to be fixed, there should be a token system, so that even if you get your clears but are unlucky on the drops, you can at least get a token towards an item of gear so it's not a complete and utter waste. That way everyone is progressing.

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This is why I can't wait until Heavensward since they're implementing a token system for loot.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Umm...

5) ST for Sands/Oil
10) Nexus/Zeta Light

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Just fyi, though the Nexus/Zeta light portion is not technically RNG (which is awesome) in the RNG sense, how quickly you can finish IS actually based on RNG. You can either have very good Bright/Gentle lights or you can have windows where nothing is active. Or where you get ones like Ramuh, which is very slow.
So technically not RNG but still in a way RNG.
I was always in the rough case with it. I finished it in three days with barely any active windows.

Your ST for Sands/Oils is totally RNG though. Yes, they drop 100% of the time but with the way people can lot, you have the RNG of lots. Lemme tell you, I know SO many people who became frustrated with how awful it was to get Sands/Oils when it unlocked fully.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Just fyi, though the Nexus/Zeta light portion is not technically RNG (which is awesome) in the RNG sense, how quickly you can finish IS actually based on RNG. You can either have very good Bright/Gentle lights or you can have windows where nothing is active. Or where you get ones like Ramuh, which is very slow.
So technically not RNG but still in a way RNG.
I was always in the rough case with it. I finished it in three days with barely any active windows.

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No amount of misfortune can screw you over in lightfarming, that is what matters. You can finish it, within a reasonable time frame, luck be damned. That is not the case for too many other things in this game. If you are unlucky enough, you will NEVER finish Zodiac. No matter what you do.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

No amount of misfortune can screw you over in lightfarming, that is what matters. You can finish it, within a reasonable time frame, luck be damned. That is not the case for too many other things in this game. If you are unlucky enough, you will NEVER finish Zodiac. No matter what you do.

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Hence why I said just how quickly finishing it was based on RNG.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Hence why I said just how quickly finishing it was based on RNG.

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And that is what makes it fine - I just mean to say that things that depend ENTIRELY on RNG are terrible. RNG affecting things peripherally is alright, but making things unattainable without luck isn't.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

how is Nexus given to people?

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how did you end up with nexus?. exactly.

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Originally Posted by tjw

I always thought something like this would work:

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Pseudo-random_distribution

Yes, I am linking DotA2 mechanics, but the "RNG" in DotA2 ensures that while the probability over time is similar to what is listed, you're guaranteed eventually to get it within -set number- of times, depending on the initial %. One drawback of such a system would be a lack of back to back drops for those lucky peeps, but then again, we're complaining about LACK of drops, not back to back drops.

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I've wanted this for a long time. Bravo for bringing it up.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Just fyi, though the Nexus/Zeta light portion is not technically RNG (which is awesome) in the RNG sense, how quickly you can finish IS actually based on RNG.

Your ST for Sands/Oils is totally RNG though. Yes, they drop 100% of the time but with the way people can lot, you have the RNG of lots. Lemme tell you, I know SO many people who became frustrated with how awful it was to get Sands/Oils when it unlocked fully.

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that's nothing like the current Atma system or current Coil drop system.

you can do a FATE and gain 0 progress. you can't do a Cape Westwind and get no light.

you can go an entire patch cycle and never see a specific Final Coil weapon. you can go into ST with a pre-made group and 100% get someone in the group a Sand/Oil.