Cerberus DPS Method - It Needs To Be Said. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Alright, given that I agree there's no need for an entire alliance to handle chains, where does any bit of logic in debating the idea of additional numbers for a task that only takes 2 even come from? I took a statement - not even a completely invalid one - and reworded it to support my original statement. Word play, and that's it. A play on words and nothing more. (<-- See what I did there?)

Also, while I do debate the idea that sending more than the established minimum in is any faster than sending all DPS in, I said in the beginning that it's not a matter of "All DPS In" doesn't work. It's impractical, but clearly it works. Let's face it, the mechanics aren't so tight that it requires one singular method to win. However, I'm pretty resolute in saying that all DPS in is impractical. WORKS, but impractical.

---

Backpeddling is your preferred tactic.
Once you master it, maybe you'll stop making half-baked topics entirely.

And completely not getting anything I say is yours. Considering you've shown clear mastery of it, I'd say that makes going out of your way to post behind me is rather pointless, no?

You say I backpedaled, but I never disagreed with the statement I reworded to support my own. That was clearly stated. Nor did I ever say "All DPS In" doesn't work. I did however point out the fact that while it's "faster" (again, I personally disagree), it's impractical given that lower numbers of skilled DPS can get the job done all the same. This was also previously stated. The caveat there is "skilled DPS" and we all know WoD can be a mixed bag. No need to create or rely on overkill tactics to compensate for lackluster player ability, I say. If you disagree, that's fine. My statement remains the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And completely not getting anything I say is yours. Considering you've shown clear mastery of it, I'd say that makes going out of your way to post behind me is rather pointless, no?

You say I backpedaled, but I never disagreed with the statement I reworded to support my own. That was clearly stated. Nor did I ever say "All DPS In" doesn't work. I did however point out the fact that while it's "faster" (again, I personally disagree), it's impractical given that lower numbers of skilled DPS can get the job done all the same. This was also previously stated. The caveat there is "skilled DPS" and we all know WoD can be a mixed bag. No need to create or rely on overkill tactics to compensate for lackluster player ability, I say. If you disagree, that's fine. My statement remains the same.

---

That's a lot of words to express a simple sentiment:

Quote:

---

You're right; I'm wrong

---

Without having bothered to read whatever it is you just replied with (meaning, I opened the topic and immediately just went to "Reply to Thread") I just want to point out that my last post here before your most recent one was exactly seven days ago.

Clearly, you need something better to do, man. This wasn't even on the first page anymore.

I prefer the A B C method. Just because I always see it beeing used and I think it's good to have one preferred way of doing the mechanic in contrast to ppl argueing/disagreeing over what would save 1 Minute over a 30 Minute+ run and eventually eff it up.

Couldn't care less if one or the other method is slightly safer or faster, key is having a established method that a group of 24 random players can work with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spoekes

I prefer the A B C method. Just because I always see it beeing used and I think it's good to have one preferred way of doing the mechanic in contrast to ppl argueing/disagreeing over what would save 1 Minute over a 30 Minute+ run and eventually eff it up.

Couldn't care less if one or the other method is slightly safer or faster, key is having a established method that a group of 24 random players can work with.

---

Do you still get parties in your data center that use ABC? It's been a long time since I seen it done that way.

Is this a rethorical question? 'Cause its answered in the part you quoted: "I always see it beeing used " yes, it's A-B-C each and every time I do WoD.

Given I run it only 2 times a week tops, that may not happen every time but that doesn't take away from the sentiment:
I think it's a good thing to have a strat you can agree on with 24 random players.
If on your Datacenter its the "all DPS in" that everyone agrees on, its also fine.

Bad thing is flame war on how to do it, or everyone assuming a different default strat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Without having bothered to read whatever it is you just replied with (meaning, I opened the topic and immediately just went to "Reply to Thread") I just want to point out that my last post here before your most recent one was exactly seven days ago.

Clearly, you need something better to do, man. This wasn't even on the first page anymore.

---

I check replies by searching by My Posts.
You're always good for a laugh. :3 Particularly enjoy how you ignore any post of mine that unarguably thrashes any point you're trying to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spoekes

Is this a rethorical question? 'Cause its answered in the part you quoted: "I always see it beeing used " yes, it's A-B-C each and every time I do WoD.

---

You are talking to someone from primal data center, home to such laughs such as tanking bone dragon north. It doesn't surprise me that superior strats are alien to them.

well one + to sending all DPS in is the caster Limit Break. it won't be ready on the first entry, but it will be on the second entry. if you can get at least 2 casters from separate alliances, those walls die super super fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

I check replies by searching by My Posts.
You're always good for a laugh. :3 Particularly enjoy how you ignore any post of mine that unarguably thrashes any point you're trying to make.

---

My Love/Hate relationship with Sousoulsu grows with each post like this, more on the Love side now #WCW

I'm not sure what time Third's been doing their WoD runs at but I can say that I have never seen anyone even suggest the ABC method. It has always been "All DPS In" every time I've gone through that raid.

The only time I've seen it fail has been 1) someone not chaining in time, 2) OTs aren't grabbing the Wolfsbane.

On top of this there have been plenty of runs where I have not gotten to the second belly stage. The fight was over by then.

Can I make any comparisons about which is faster? No, obviously, because I've never even seen someone suggest anything other than "All DPS In".

To be honest though, it does make sense to stick them all in. The damage is negligible inside because the DoT doesn't get the time to pick up. Unknowns can be safely ignored (if necessary, pop Second Wind, those things hit like warm towels). There are fewer Wolfsbane out (I've seen as few as two, one of which died thanks to tank DPS nearly as soon as DPS were out of the belly) as well.

Regardless... At the end of the day it all comes down to which method the people you're playing with are most familiar with. And yes, communication is something that is very poor across the board and needs to improve. Otherwise DF 24 man raids will always be light on mechanics/tuning.

Everyone loves a sideshow, I suppose.

I should note, if you must know, that I generally only ignore Sou's replies that distort or misinterpret what I say, which unfortunately tends to be nearly all of them. The larger points have been made, agreed with, and disputed, but many agree both work (again, previously stated), and that communication is key for either one. The rest, honestly is just conjecture and flame-baiting at this point.

There could be a number of factors, but I have not made an attempt to go in as a DPS since starting this topic, and have seen less "all in" runs lately. . . and absolutely no change in how long it takes, except if/when there are people trolling or legit problems.

IMO all non MNK DPS should go in. Monks are better staying outside, blowing up the adds before the other DPS are finished in the belly and never lose GL. The OT (If you are lucky enough to have an OT with an IQ higher than 2 who actually grabs adds) takes less damage (so many healers just completely ignore the poison and end up having to spam heal the OT when they could just esuna once or twice and DPS instead) and the dps who were inside can jump straight onto cerb once they get shat out. Win/Win.

ABC is full retard anyway because you don't need a full party to do chains and you don't need a full party to do adds.

I agree it doesn't take all of C for the chains. Instead the others can either help with adds or continue attacking Cerberus. No momentum wasted. (This was something previously stated).

It's really not a matter of better or faster. But all 15 dps in is just unnecessary.

Only need 1 dps to kill adds before the inside dps get out. The faster the walls die the faster cerb is slumped so the MT and all heals can switch to DPS mode and the faster the second belly phase starts. If the dps who stay outside can't deal enough damage while the walls are being killed to prevent a second belly phase then it takes longer than all dps in and results in more incoming damage to the group as a whole. Simple as that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

I should note, if you must know, that I generally only ignore Sou's replies that distort or misinterpret what I say, which unfortunately tends to be nearly all of them. The larger points have been made, agreed with, and disputed, but many agree both work (again, previously stated), and that communication is key for either one. The rest, honestly is just conjecture and flame-baiting at this point.

---

I read what you say, respond to what you say (Usually saying, with appropriate evidence provided, that you're wrong) and then you get pissy at me. I really don't know what to tell you. If me pointing out the missteps you make in your reasoning gets you so miffy, I would suggest you do one of two things:
1)Stop replying to me;
2)Stop being wrong so often.

Just to put a cap on this topic:
Fact: More damage dealers inside belly = more damage output on the walls.
Fact:More damage output on the walls = faster belly finish
Fact: Faster belly finish = faster fight

Bad groups are bad groups. No method changes a bad group to a good group. But in this situation, one method is better than the other in every measurable way. And that method happens to be All DPS in the belly.

Being passive-aggressive and deflecting away from the topic that ~you~ brought up does not change the above.
Both methods work, but one works faster, making it the better method.

Please take your own advice. Please especially take #2.

Actually, please take both to heart. I know how much you perhaps want to be right and want the last word (and at this, please take it), but it passed the point of reason a long time ago, and it's neither cute nor funny. It's actually pretty pathetic and borderline creepy if I may be so honest. And passive-aggressive deflection from a near-dead topic dragged back up by you if only to again make a self-supporting (and completely wrong due AGAIN to misinterpreted) statement is, once again, not as on the mark as you think it is.

So let's try openly aggressive: "faster = better" is narrow minded and one-dimensional, you need something better to do at 5AM, I question your comprehension skills now, and while I lack any interest in what you say at this point, please say it then shut the hell up.

P.S.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

Both methods work, but one works faster, making it the better method.

---

Except that it's been established that it really isn't faster. Thus it isn't any better OR worse (It IS however impractical). Thus your wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

2)Stop being wrong so often.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Please take your own advice. Please especially take #2.

Actually, please take both to heart. I know how much you perhaps want to be right and want the last word (and at this, please take it), but it passed the point of reason a long time ago, and it's neither cute nor funny. It's actually pretty pathetic and borderline creepy if I may be so honest. And passive-aggressive deflection from a near-dead topic dragged back up by you if only to again make a self-supporting (and completely wrong due AGAIN to misinterpreted) statement is, once again, not as on the mark as you think it is.

So let's try openly aggressive: "faster = better" is narrow minded and one-dimensional, you need something better to do at 5AM, I question your comprehension skills now, and while I lack any interest in what you say at this point, please say it then shut the hell up.

P.S.
Except that it's been established that it really isn't faster. Thus it isn't any better OR worse (It IS however impractical). Thus your wrong.

---

In any metric that can be measured, all DPS in is better; and most players seem to agree that if a kill is assured, a faster kill is ideal.

How is all DPS in belly not faster? You have not quantified this claim.

You're doing it again - please stop getting mad at me and resorting to personal attacks when I point out a misstep in your thought process. It makes your argument weaker and makes you seem like an overly-emotional dolt.
If I truly bother you so much that you have to resort to unfounded personal attacks, just don't reply. It really is that easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

P.S.
Except that it's been established that it really isn't faster. Thus it isn't any better OR worse (It IS however impractical). Thus your wrong.

---

The method you choose probably only shaves 20-60 seconds off your clear, BUT If you're trying to minimize your clear time as much as possible the method that works better depends on your DPS output.

- If you have low DPS (can't get Cerberus below 35%ish before second belly either way) both methods should be roughly equivalent in speed because even though you kill the belly slower with ABC, you still have about the same damage output from 15 DPS and are incapable of reaching the insta-kill from second belly either way.

-If you have average DPS (most DF groups) and you ABC you risk getting him below 25% before belly because you delayed his second phase thus wasting DPS; however, with the all in method you end the belly phase asap to start his next rotation and should have no problem getting him to ~30% (then if need be you can shave off his last few % while he's unconscious).

-If you have high DPS it can go either way. If your DPS is very high, delaying his rotation with ABC might allow you to kill him before the second belly. If it's Extremely high it doesn't matter because you'll be able to finish him off either way.

So assuming you have a run with average DPS (probably 80-90% of DF runs) all in will be slightly faster, whereas ABC is only better if you are intentionally trying to delay his next phase.

'All in' is the general consensus on my server, but it should be said that (alliance setup allowing) SMNs and MNKs should remain outside. Walls won't stay up long enough for DoTs to be as effective as they will on Wolfsbanes and Cerb. MNKs will likely see GL stacks drop by the time they get minimized, are eaten, and zone into the belly. The other front-loading DPS jobs are better suited for all in approach.

I will admit that I always held the chains, but after reading a few posts about delaying the second belly phase, I won't be doing that anymore. At least not on the first belly phase. No reason to wake him if he isn't dead already by the second.

Speaking solely as a MNK, I go in. Why? Because one of the times I didn't, everyone inside died, and we wiped. I'd rather lose my stacks and assure the one big mechanic of the fight is dealt with than wipe and lose my stacks anyway. In a perfect world, MNK and SMN stay outside. DF isn't perfect, though, and it's better to take the path of least resistance.

Thing is, if you have to find frankly weird methods of completing very simple things, then you are doing it wrong

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Speaking solely as a MNK, I go in. Why? Because one of the times I didn't, everyone inside died, and we wiped. I'd rather lose my stacks and assure the one big mechanic of the fight is dealt with than wipe and lose my stacks anyway. In a perfect world, MNK and SMN stay outside. DF isn't perfect, though, and it's better to take the path of least resistance.

---

I hear that. I only stay out side as a Dragoon when the DPS has done an exceptional job on all previous stages and I can confidently let them do it one man short. Cause I can, have, and will likely need to again, solo that stomach full of dead dps. Thank The Twelve for HQ X-Potions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Delvish

'All in' is the general consensus on my server, but it should be said that (alliance setup allowing) SMNs and MNKs should remain outside.

---

Smn should go in for no other reason than to summon titan and have him grab the adds, seen a few alliances wipe because all the dps were killed inside the stomach. Also of late I've been staying out to help dps down the wolfsbane, since it seems it's rare for one of the two offtanks to grab them, resulting in most of the healers being dead by time dps get out of the stomach.

My personal favorite is when all the dps go in and the 2 OTs stand around outside twiddling their thumbs and don't even pick up the wolfsbane. We come back outside and are like "er... why is everyone dead?"

I usually stay outside as DPS unless I'm on B team. People have seen wipes for a number of reasons, mine have all been because adds over run the outside. I have seen death inside the stomach of the puppy but it's usually because there's a tank performing the manderville at the start while the other is taking on adds and the final tank is holding Cujo. Then again I don't run this 50 times a week enough to really get to where I need to save a few minutes and demand one way or another. When I am in the stomach I feel like i'm in the old Sega Gensis commercial "What's going on up there?!"

I like belly only because it lets me regen TP since I'm usually running low by that point and 99% of bards have no musical talent whatsoever. Otherwise I try to kill the adds - and then cry because tanks don't pick up/lose aggro, I die and lose all of my TP anyways. >.>

Belly it is.

I'm glad to see things are evening out between how many go in and how many stay out, at least on my data center.

On my data center it just seems that ABC goes for the tanks and healers, and dps just do whatever they want.

Generally speaking, though, B team always enters entirely, and a few dps from both A and C join them.
There's really no reason not to go in. Even if your healer isn't joining(except for B healer, who is only necessary to heal B tank), you'll be fine because the persistent damage does like nothing.

Honestly, it's pointless debating what the best tactic is, because in the end, people will just do whatever they want, because they've been getting away with it ever since the fight became pure farm status for the entire population of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrinn

I like belly only because it lets me regen TP since I'm usually running low by that point and 99% of bards have no musical talent whatsoever.

---

...what job? I've done each variety of physical dps and good use of invigorate has always been enough to keep my tp up. If you mean a tank job, ok, I can see that. Still, never seen a real need for paeon in any of those WoD fights.

On another note. I tend to go in if I'm on team B or C. But then again, I also go for the chain, regardless of what team I'm on. This game has taught me never to trust a stranger with something I can do myself. If I'm on team A, I do the responsible thing and help take the wolfsbanes down. A tank can hold 1 or 2 fine enough. 3 starts to get a little overwhelming. They put out a LOT of damage. There should always be at least a couple dps taking them down.