Why did SE decide to make the three new classes not require base classes?

I just hope that they really overhaul the cross class system as well.

(dunno how the 3 new "jobs" will fit in...but oh well)

I'd love them to do another cross class shuffle like they did from beta to live (they removed PUG from BLM *cry* and CNJ from BRD *cheer*)

Every mage having access to ACN skills is boring especially seeing as Virus is crap without the trait and just gives the enemy immunity >.<

Add ROG to the roster! Death Blossom for alll <3

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

I just hope that they really overhaul the cross class system as well.

(dunno how the 3 new "jobs" will fit in...but oh well)

I'd love them to do another cross class shuffle like they did from beta to live (they removed PUG from BLM *cry* and CNJ from BRD *cheer*)

Every mage having access to ACN skills is boring especially seeing as Virus is crap without the trait and just gives the enemy immunity >.<

Add ROG to the roster! Death Blossom for alll <3

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Goad for all.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

Every mage having access to ACN skills is boring especially seeing as Virus is crap without the trait and just gives the enemy immunity >.<

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Twintania says hi

but yeah for now, only E4E is a really useful cross skill :/

I would rather see them just abandon the classes. Kepp the ones we have now, but I would rather them just keep coming up with and adding new jobs. It would be easier than trying to come up with what combines with what to make what. And the problem is if you link a class to a job, you water down both. What if there were no jobs, and CNJ was just WHM and THM was just BLM, etc. We could have had better and different skills for each job instead of trying to add skills from a class to a job. I mean we already can switch jobs on the fly, why would i need to add a cross skill anyways? Makes the jobs more diverse and different jobs for different people. Instead of just lvling up a class just so you can get a skill from it, I would rather them give you weapons and armor with skills to learn.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

Second, changing the cross-class system into a cross-skill system would require a lot of recoding and rebalancing work that the dev-team may not have time for. It may actually be a bit more beneficial if that'd let them give us more options for bringing skills over to other classes, but when compared to the work it requires...I'd rather have new content, not remade content.

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What a lot of people don't seem to realize is that the "Dev Team" isn't just a single entity that works on one thing at a time. You've got the battle systems teams, the design teams (SSSSS... Plural! ;P), the Item/Equipment teams, the lore teams, the content teams, etc etc etc. While there is a group of teams constantly working on updates and keeping current content interesting, there's another whole set of teams working on the next expansion, and with a game as big as WoW (And likely FFXIV if it keeps going...) the expansion after that, too. What you often see is a group working on the expansion, and when that expansion hits they're the "Primary" team that adds content during that expansion while the previous team goes ahead and starts on the next expansion in the queue.

For a big update like the class/job revamp, Yoshi tells the appropriate expansion team, "We want to change the way this feature works in the game. Start working on that for your expansion." In this way the expansion team can add extra manpower to devote to that task so they don't lose progress on things like content, new jobs, new races, new zones, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mysteltain

Sorry for the wall of text, but once I started I just couldn't stop, heh.

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Don't apologize for having something to say. :P Gods know I've done the same thing in almost every response I've made. :P

I kinda figured that battle classes (not including DoH/DoL here) are relics of a past time, that is, 1.0. Many players were not happy with the classes, they wanted more classic FF classes and improved class identity. So the devs just sorta added jobs on top of the existing class system, since I don't think they could have easily renamed everything and changed all the associated quests. I can see why it was a good idea for 1.0, but it does seem needlessly complicated now.

I sort of wish that they'd just done away with the whole classes/jobs distinction for 2.0, when they were re-doing everything anyway. I don't particularly want to see classes removed now, though if they do get around to revamping classes and/or jobs, IMHO they will have to be very careful with cross class abilities. Not gonna lie, I miss my 1.0 "battle mage", but I'm pretty sure the devs don't want anything like that running around the game. xD

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Originally Posted by Demeos

I'd be more interested in removing the classes (not removing Jobs) and then just having one called...wait for it..."Adventurer". Boom, done, next please.

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I had submitted 3 separate suggestions about an Adventurer class (the class has no weapon equipped and has the ability to delve further into NPC lore when not armed to the teeth.)
to the community team through their official channel since 2011. This is something that makes so much sense to me, I mean common sense that it could have single -handedly fixed Tanaka's
recycled vision of 1.0 coming into ARR.

IMO, ARR should not have had playable classes, this system should have been resolved with the introduction of Jobs, making Jobs easier to tweak for when introduing more Jobs in the future that no longer are based on a single class-based
system. This is why SMN ans SCH is so messed up, because that job is eating the very fruit that contributed to the downfall of 1.0 architecture.

/rantoff

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Originally Posted by Edellis

short answer -- new race, new town, new expansion starter area, needs new starter jobs that don't exist in the typical 3 Eorzea states.

long answer -- This is better for the game. Currently, queue times are horrifically skewed, the best thing this expansion can do currently is make Tank/Heals a more popular and populous path.


Also, Square never said Dark Knight / Astro / Gunner won't have class paths. They just said they're not classes, they're starter jobs.

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No new starter area. Coerthas and Dravania is a war zone.

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Originally Posted by Felis

No new starter area. Coerthas and Dravania is a war zone.

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your opinion. doesn't mean there can't be a starter area there btw.

What SE can do is separate the Classes an Jobs. Make the Classes into "Jobs" while still having the other Jobs. For example, when you get ROG to 30, you need it at lv 30 and a lv 15 PUG. When you do the Quest to unlock NIN, it is now separate rather than using the jewel to change into the job. Ninja starts at lv 1 but learns all the skills from ROG, (it could be a temporary thing til they have time to change the name and animations but not the effect). Since you got your skill from the lv 15 and 30 quest, it gets those as well. They could buff up the Classes to be on par with the Jobs. They could keep their 10 cross abilities slots or if they want, add 5 new abilities as they lv to 50. That way nothing has to be removed and each Class and Job keep their Lore rather than Classes becoming nonexistent past 30. They could add new quests as well so it's not jarring to be lv 1 to 30 / 30 to 50 with no class/job quests.

1.0 had classes then jobs was added. 2.0 is a remake of 1.0 "A Realm Reborn". Heavensward with 3 new jobs with no classes I think its great and tells me that this is SE and Yoshi P. saying we remade the game (2.0) and that Heavensward is the true Final Fantasy XIV Online moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Teslo

That's your opinion. We've now heard it. Several times. Mostly in broken barely translatable English. It mostly sounds to me like you don't understand how the game works and you're fighting something that hasn't even been announced yet because you're afraid that the new system won't allow you to do whatever it is that you think you're doing. Change is good. The new system might be even better for you in the end. If it happens, it's going to happen. Starting a "Petition" thread is a great way for you to get ignored by the Devs. They don't even look at these. Just chill and accept the change IF IT EVEN HAPPENS.

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I'll never be ok with classes being removed.

I guess I'm okay with the whole 'no base class' thing from a gameplay aspect... It's not like knowing which classes to level and which cross class skills to pick is exactly intuitive.

Lore wise though...if they take away the THM story line, I would cry. ; ;
You can't really merge the THM and BLM story lines (or many of the classes/jobs stories, for that matter) and have it make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Slick

Are you being serious or joking?

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Final Fantasy XI and every Final Fantasy game "just" has jobs... and they arent less complex..

when they get rid of conjurer... they wont need to get rid of the conjurers skills.. because they are almost typical WHM skills anyways..


It would be good thing, so they wont need to implement a new class for every new job. starting from lv 1 with the specific job.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

I'll never be ok with classes being removed.

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because you play a class in endgame?

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Final Fantasy XI and every Final Fantasy game "just" has jobs... and they arent less complex..

when they get rid of conjurer... they wont need to get rid of the conjurers skills.. because they are almost typical WHM skills anyways..


It would be good thing, so they wont need to implement a new class for every new job. starting from lv 1 with the specific job.



because you play a class in endgame?

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Yes, I've have played Archer up to T9 in endgame. All Clear. I play Mard and Archer.
Not everyone cares about endgame, most players dont. Some of us play for FUN and like to play classes in Fates and open world stuff. Taking them out RUINS our FUN.
If SE could find a way to make classes good for endgame then this "Class hate" wouldnt be a problem.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Yes, I've have played Archer up to T9 in endgame. All Clear. I play Mard and Archer.
Not everyone cares about endgame, most players dont. Some of us play for FUN and like to play classes in Fates and open world stuff. Taking them out RUINS our FUN.
If SE could find a way to make classes good for endgame then this "Class hate" wouldnt be a problem.

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Endgame is fun to most of us. Saying that you don't care about endgame while in the same sentence saying that you play classes in endgame is kind of an oxymoron. If you're actually playing a class during endgame content (While simultaneously not caring about that content) all you're doing is making things harder for the people in your group to clear the content. This can be fun for some people, but since you don't even care about that content, it's clearly not fun for you, either. All you're doing is throwing a temper tantrum with absolutely no reasons to back it up. What reasons you have given are in conflict with themselves.

Classes are not optimal for endgame content because the endgame content is designed with Job skills in mind. This, by very definition, means that classes aren't a consideration when implementing new content, which only means that they are an outdated relic from a system that is no longer relevant. To keep them in the game at this point is to stagnate development on new and exciting content.

I'm reminded of WoW's Cataclysm launch. Blizzard changed the entire game. Every zone was altered, every quest was changed. Old quests were removed in place of the new quests. Some zones were entirely destroyed in the changes brought by the new expansion. The game was forever altered from the ground up. Literally. Even the skill tree systems changed. There was some resistance, but ultimately everyone agreed that it was a good thing. People who got to play in the earlier versions had something to reminisce about, and new content to explore on low-level alt characters. I'm willing to bet that someone complained that changing the maps and everything in-game would RUIN people's FUN. But they did it, and it was awesome and nobody stopped having fun.

At this point it would even be easy to lore-ify their removal(and SE lurves it some lore). Originally, unlocking a job was all about the player rediscovering ancient, forgotten arts related to their (relatively)mundane class or becoming privy to ones held only by a select few in the current era. At this point though you've got thousands of players who've figured all this stuff out. Going into 3.X, they could have all the guilds switch directly to the job, with NPCs there remarking how they used to teach a much more basic discipline but thanks to the efforts of adventurers, techniques lost to the sands of time are now recovered for all.

Advanced Jobs!

Removing existing Classes at this point would just be a waste of time, since they'd have to rewrite their entire storyline for Classes/Jobs to accommodate players being Dragoon from Lv1 instead. It's a lot of extra work for no real gain at all.

The only change they should make to Classes is merging them all into a Freelancer style Job, since that can retain all the existing lore and potentially be viable at endgame if they go with the classic "Gets stronger the more you master" trait the Job has always had. I can't even imagine it would be too hard to implement, considering a Freelancer Job would effectively just be 1.0s Physical/Skill level system.

Most player never get to try any endgame stuff. We cleared Coil 1 and Coil 2 in an planned PF group. No one was held back and it was really easy with a Bard in the party make up. You dont really need two Bards. Point being is " I Did it!" Classes could just going on to become their own jobs. I hate Bard. I love Archer. wouldnt be nice if Archer was it its own JOB, made with endgame in mind? More jobs = more FUN = more choices for endgame groups to make. Also, it makes for bad story telling for a Lv 1 Bard to "Just" know how to use a bow. It makes for great story telling for a Archer to learn how to use a Harp. I still hate ALL Endgame stuff.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Most player never get to try any endgame stuff. We cleared Coil 1 and Coil 2 in an planned PF group. No one was held back and it was really easy with a Bard in the party make up. You dont really need two Bards. Point being is " I Did it!" Classes could just going on to become their own jobs. I hate Bard. I love Archer. wouldnt be nice if Archer was it its own JOB, made with endgame in mind? More jobs = more FUN = more choices for endgame groups to make. Also, it makes for bad story telling for a Lv 1 Bard to "Just" know how to use a bow. It makes for great story telling for a Archer to learn how to use a Harp. I still hate ALL Endgame stuff.

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ARC is just a BRD that doesn't sing. >_>

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Originally Posted by Slick

Is the game being "dumbed-down" a bit?

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lulz, 14 is essentially dumbed down by using the spam/gcd/rotation system found in rift/wow/ro2/etc, instead of evolving on what made 11 so unique, the tp building system(14.1 might have been good but i didnt play it:/)

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

ARC is just a BRD that doesn't sing. >_>

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Bard is nothing without Archer. Bard without Archer = a guy with a Harp and no almost no attacks. Worthless for endgame.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

ARC is just a BRD that doesn't sing. >_>

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that would be kicked from a raid or dungeon of post 30 because every WHM wants mages ballad and casters/nin want foes

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Bard is nothing without Archer. Bard without Archer = a guy with a Harp and no almost no attacks. Worthless for endgame.

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http://aurakingdom.aeriagames.com/azuria/classes
click bard

using damaging sound/music based magic you hurt the baddies.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Taking them out RUINS our FUN.

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stop with that nonsense. Classes bring nothing that a job can't. Unless you're doing challenging stuff with odd set up (like the 1 SCH 7 MRD T9 I've seen) but you said end game stuff isn't your cup of tea so there's nothing left. Taking classes out at this point will only change one thing for you : you'll be named whatever the job is instead whatever the class is. And you'll do a better job.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

If SE could find a way to make classes good for endgame then this "Class hate" wouldnt be a problem.

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Flash news, there is no "class hate". Some people are just aware that classes are remnants of the past and are useless to the point the only reason they managed to come from 1.0 is lore. You want to have a use for "classes" ? Ask for the freelancer job. That's a jack-of-all-trades. What classes here fail to even imitate.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Most player never get to try any endgame stuff. We cleared Coil 1 and Coil 2 in an planned PF group. No one was held back and it was really easy with a Bard in the party make up. You dont really need two Bards. Point being is " I Did it!" Classes could just going on to become their own jobs. I hate Bard. I love Archer. wouldnt be nice if Archer was it its own JOB, made with endgame in mind? More jobs = more FUN = more choices for endgame groups to make. Also, it makes for bad story telling for a Lv 1 Bard to "Just" know how to use a bow. It makes for great story telling for a Archer to learn how to use a Harp. I still hate ALL Endgame stuff.

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2 things :
=> If you have a bard already and "2 bards aren't needed", why would you bring archer ? if a 2nd bard isn't needed, an archer will bring nothing.
=> a bard is an archer with one more AoE and great utility which you can chose to be bad and never use. What exactly don't you like in bard if you like archer ?


and as a bonus : if you hate end game, why the heck would you either do end game stuff or even play this game (focusing on end game stuff) ?

I'm genuinely curious about all my questions.


also :

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Bard is nothing without Archer. Bard without Archer = a guy with a Harp and no almost no attacks. Worthless for endgame.

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I take it you never played anything remotely close to a support type class. Worthless ? bah. You don't know what you're talking about.

Also, you missed their point horribly. IN THIS GAME, a bard is a useful archer. so every archer past lv30 is a failed bard. On the contrary, you can't be bard if you aren't archer, thus your point is... dumb as best.

Point be is "You can't have a jobs without classes". Now, going foward yeah we will. In this game Archer is DPS up to lv 30 when the game forces you to become some support/dps job. Not what some of some of us sign up for. Archer could grow to become its won Job "Ranger" If the Devs wanted to go this way.

Bard would be worthlees for anything without the base skills earned from leveling ARCHER. THis gos for the ALL the JOBS. Take way the base ruin, the job. PLD with almost no attacks? Whm without cure?

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Bard would be worthlees for anything without the base skills earned from leveling ARCHER. THis gos for the ALL the JOBS. Take way the base ruin, the job. PLD with almost no attacks? Whm without cure?

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Couldn't you just have the job progress like the class does?

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

snip.

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you can have jobs without classes. Just because they kept 1.0 lore doesn't mean they couldn't have just get rid of all this crap before launching 2.0. Don't get me wrong. I love their lore. But the whole concept of class => job in this game is rather bland. Job => advanced jobs as it's done in other MMOs is far more enjoyable as there is still a use for lower tier jobs. Here the classes have no use.

That said, I now know you don't know what you're talking about for archer/bard.

Archer was made with bard in mind. Archer is already the "support/dps" you don't like, with their dps lowered compared to the others to fit its insane utility coming with job quests. The whole class was designed with bard in mind. You didn't sign up for bard ? Why did you even pick up archer then ?

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Bard would be worthlees for anything without the base skills earned from leveling ARCHER. THis gos for the ALL the JOBS. Take way the base ruin, the job. PLD with almost no attacks? Whm without cure?

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once again you make no sense. Seriously. If there was no archer, bard would have learned all the skills of archer in its place. It would just have had an other name.

I like that the new jobs are jobs only, it gives S-E more quests to help flesh out the story for that particular job instead of having two separate sets of stories needed to complete the job (one for classes, the second for the job). I will admit though, I found the class stories are better than the job stories from what I've seen so far so I hope the new job storyline will be equally as enjoyable. Here's hoping.

Off-topic, there's a little bit of delicious irony involved here knowing that Fran Seara is a "Pro-Class / Anti-Job" player, yet has finished a Zodiac weapon that can only be equipped by a JOB and not the class itself. Based on post history, I'm beginning to think Fran is just a troll though @.@

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Bard would be worthlees for anything without the base skills earned from leveling ARCHER. THis gos for the ALL the JOBS. Take way the base ruin, the job. PLD with almost no attacks? Whm without cure?

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For some reason you seem to think that Job = The 5 abilities that you quest for over 20 levels. This is the main issue with the problem you're having here. The Job is a culmination of abilities brought to it by the classes and enhanced by the 5 abilities you think are standalone. Note: Enhanced. If you were to remove the "Classes", the "Job" would then include everything you learn up to level 30 as well as everything you learn past level 30. That's it. I'm really beginning to wonder at your ability to ... you know... think.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Off-topic, there's a little bit of delicious irony involved here knowing that Fran Seara is a "Pro-Class / Anti-Job" player, yet has finished a Zodiac weapon that can only be equipped by a JOB and not the class itself. Based on post history, I'm beginning to think Fran is just a troll though @.@

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That would certainly explain a lot...

Kuwagami, We may never agree on this but I do understand what you're saying. Maybe its because I didnt start playing untill way after 1.0. So, some of us and I don't have knowledge of the old systems what were in place. What I see is that some players just wanna throw away the stories I've and maybe we have enjoyed for the pass year. I'm all for change but why waste time changing the past. Let's move foward, the Jobs will be Jobs and most of us will be happy. If ES can somehow keep classes in the but "Soup" them up some I'd be happy. If not I'll just go away. (I'am sure that would make some of you happy) I reason I hate BRD. I hate support jobs. After getting the BRD stone I grow to hate playing has bard and started to play mostly solo with Archer. I only join groups that invite me and are willing to live with me playing ACR If you dont like that dont invite me to your group. Luckly most players on my server understand that.

ps:I hope we'll be able to agree on something One day.

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Originally Posted by Teslo

That would certainly explain a lot...

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No troll. promise Be it would be nice if ES would fix that to read ARH/BRD

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

What I see is that some players just wanna throw away the stories I've and maybe we have enjoyed for the pass year.

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I don't think most of us want to get rid of the stories. Heck, I love the PGL, ARC, CNJ, and ROG stories, for example. If anything, I'd like to see the class stories do a better job leading into the job stories (ROG I think did a fairly good job). At the same time, though, I don't see any compelling reason to keep the classes and jobs as separate entities.

[QUOTE=Teslo;2684822]For some reason you seem to think that Job = The 5 abilities that you quest for over 20 levels. This is the main issue with the problem you're having here. The Job is a culmination of abilities brought to it by the classes and enhanced by the 5 abilities you think are standalone. Note: Enhanced. If you were to remove the "Classes", the "Job" would then include everything you learn up to level 30 as well as everything you learn past level 30.
Nope, Wrong here. Or we may see it differantly. I see as the Classes brings almost all the skills while the job adds special skills and bonus. Take your off soul gem and you still have almost your skills, take away all the classes skills from a job and you have only 6-8 skills. Exmaple I almost never get any gems untill ever late levels maybe lv 40-45. Mainly due to other playes being pushy about it. I have tons of skills without a soul gems. "I feel less flexable with a soul gem"

Post1:
I just recently introduced a bunch of friends to FFXIV.

They don't seem to mind having to level multiple classes to make a job. It makes the job feel "special" in that they needed to go the extra mile to earn it.

That said, I can see why classes don't make much sense, moving forward. After all, if barely any of the classes are going to wind up at the end game, why have them?

If a class was heavily differentiated from its job counterpart(s), that'd be one thing, but that's rarely the case: a SMN/SCH is really just an ACN with a few extra abilities tacked on.

Post2:

Now, if you're going to keep classes around, it would make sense that each class is the root for 2-3 different jobs (maybe more). If THM, at 30, branched out into 5 different flavors of caster, each one unique from the other except for the base THM skills, then I'd say classes make sense because the first 30 levels of a class would effectively be the first 30 points on a "talent tree" of sorts that the player will later branch off on.

But most classes become one job, and most classes are not in any way better off for NOT becoming said job, ergo I can see why they'd want to stop adding classes at this point.

Post3:

Do I think they should pull out existing classes? Not really. There's a lot of storyline that would be lost and, as I said, none of my friends seem to mind leveling a 2nd class to 15 to acquire their job class (it does add a certain "multiclass" flavor to the game).

But yeah, I'd hope they ensure that there's some variety to these three new jobs in their playstyles. In a perfect world, every class would be able to perform at least one support role in addition to their DPS role (ala Wildstar's classes).