Done!

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Originally Posted by Aurora-Pendragon

The amount of people in this thread believing that waiting 2 hours for a fate to spawn = challenge O.O

It's the stupidest game design ever, forcing people to do NOTHING for hours. You can't play or help your friends, nothing. How is it challenging exactly? Give me that damn fate so I can do real content. Even mindless grinding is better than this.

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I don't think I see anybody saying any of that.

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Originally Posted by hallena

I was talking about going from novus to nexus. If you didnt have novus by the time nexus came out then idk what else to tell you because you had plenty of time to do it.

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Like a lot of people wanted to tell you, some people just don't have the time for that. If I only have 1-2 hours in the game, you'll have a higher chance that I'd do dailies and then spend the rest of my time either doing shiva or the second coil. Even if I'm saying people would have 1-2 hours ingame, doesn't mean they'll be able to play everyday. You should start looking at things from their point of view, and not just your own.

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Originally Posted by Aurora-Pendragon

The amount of people in this thread believing that waiting 2 hours for a fate to spawn = challenge O.O

It's the stupidest game design ever, forcing people to do NOTHING for hours. You can't play or help your friends, nothing. How is it challenging exactly? Give me that damn fate so I can do real content. Even mindless grinding is better than this.

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absolutely.

and i also don't see how repeating easy content umpteen times makes the easy content suddenly challenging.

it's just investment of spare-time. anyone who has a relic has achieved nothing special.
except invested very, very, very much time into easy, monotonous stuff.

"so you hit that red button 100 000 times and got a virtual reward for it? WHAT A CHALLENGE! YOU'RE SPECIAL!"

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

Like a lot of people wanted to tell you, some people just don't have the time for that. If I only have 1-2 hours in the game, you'll have a higher chance that I'd do dailies and then spend the rest of my time either doing shiva or the second coil. Even if I'm saying people would have 1-2 hours ingame, doesn't mean they'll be able to play everyday. You should start looking at things from their point of view, and not just your own.

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And what i'm saying is what you do with your time is your business. You choose to spend your free time doing shiva or second coil. if i spend all my money on a new computer i'm not going to complain i can't afford something else i'd like to have.
people have been asking for SE to make relic a challenge instead of a grind but 2.0 showed a lot of people obviously don't want a challenge because "they don't have the time" to learn several fights or find a group for it

As for my point of view.
I work
I have to take care of my grandfather because of his cancer
I have my cardio daily routine
i have a dog and 2 cats to take care off
bunch of other minor things like cleaning the place and such yet i still have my zodiac. don't act like zodiac weapons are avaiable only to jobless people who play 24/7. people stop because the grind is so long they don't see the end of it and are discouraged, not because of time limitation. There's a difference between not being able to do something and not wanting to do something.

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Originally Posted by hallena

snip

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So, thats why you feel satisfied when getting something that much timeconsuming as a relict, how would it be a trophy then if everyone can get it?
If you do it for yourself and you like the timesink, why does it matter if others can get it without the timesink?

Just a sidenote: As many times said in 2.0 relic (from many players before me) challenge is not same as "team rope jumping" *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

How would it be a trophy then if everyone can get it?

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But that's the point.
Everyone can get it.
There is no skill involved.

Many people just don't want to waste so much time onto simple, monotonous, repeating activities.
And that's the only reason that not everybody has it.

Not because it's difficult or challenging in any way.
Relic = killing time. killing spare-time. killing life-time.
that's the only purpose of this quest.

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How would it be a trophy then if everyone can get it?

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Thats the thing. Everyone can get it. not everyone want to get it. which make it the second rarest weapon on my server after T13

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If you do it for yourself and you like the timesink, why does it matter if others can get it without the timesink?

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I like the timesink not because i enjoy doing it but because its currently the only thing that make someone with a zodiac weapon stand out.

I'd rather it being a team effort/challenge but during 2.0 this forum was flooded with titan being too hard ;_; threads so they changed it to a grind. So now people complain about the grind. People will not stop crying until they mail you a zodiac as soon as you ding 50. At the very least now you can solo all the steps from zenith so people who "can't find a group!" isn't locked behind that anymore

Sorry Phe:
Was trying to point out this, but i guess i was not as good as you...

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Originally Posted by Phe

"so you hit that red button 100 000 times and got a virtual reward for it? WHAT A CHALLENGE! YOU'RE SPECIAL!"

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Sorry Phe:
Was trying to point out this, but i guess i was not as good as you...

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Alright, you got my curiousity. What's the definition of a challenge to you? Since titan 2.0 supposedly wasn't one. I'm sure those who can't kill T5 will probably complain about it too
Keep in mind that when you come up with your challenge. Zodiac is lvl 125 with customisable stats which make it better than 130 ironwork to some class while ironwork is 120 and require minimum T11 down and only one person per week have access to it aswell as waiting 3 weeks worth of poetic caping.
But you also need to make your challenge accessible to everyone or else people will complain.

Feel Free to get those pretty ilvl 120+ weapons thrown after you in 2.5 part I Crystal Tower and ilvl 130 in 2.5 part II.

Oh and to OP: Bye.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Because you looking at them alone, combine 2 or all 3 methodes and you get a nice system!
You cover the brickwall with timeconsuming and maybe the last backup with cashshop (as the easy part).

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So long the cash shop weapon is ilevel 1 with no stats. So you only buy vanity weapon skin and no power.

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Originally Posted by Phe

But that's the point.
Everyone can get it.
There is no skill involved.

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Patience is involved. Patience and willpower.
Both can be very challenging for some people.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

How would it be a trophy then if everyone can get it?

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Because not everyone DOES get it. And that's fine. You want a weapon that shows off how much skill you have? Go get the weapons from T9, T13, or Shiva, or upgrade your Ironworks weapon. There are four options there if you want a "challenge."

The relic weapon doesn't require a static or hours of practice. It's an option for those people who either don't have the skill to get the others or just simply don't want to. You're crying over them making ONE WEAPON OPTION available to players who don't do Coil or the EX Primals (two, technically, if you count the normal Ironworks weapon). Four versus two. How much more entitled do you get?

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Originally Posted by Felis

So long the cash shop weapon is ilevel 1 with no stats. So you only buy vanity weapon skin and no power.


Patience is involved. Patience and willpower.

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willpower? more boredom.

patience? certainly not.
because that would imply, people who don't do the relic quest are impatient.

they just don't have so much time.
people who have a lot, a LOT of time to spend,
and who are bored - they do it.

to kill time.

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Originally Posted by Phe

willpower? more boredom.

patience? certainly not.
because that would imply, people who don't do the relic quest are impatient.

they just don't have so much time.
people who have a lot, a LOT of time to spend,
and who are bored - they do it.

to kill time.

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You have the time, it's just you do not wish to allocate it to the relic quest line.

In the end "a lot" of time is spent regardless, it's just how you choose to condense/spread it.

I will go as far as saying, people who say "I don't have time!" I'll take that as "I don't have time...for that!"



-Tari

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Originally Posted by Phe

willpower? more boredom.

patience? certainly not.
because that would imply, people who don't do the relic quest are impatient.

they just don't have so much time.
people who have a lot, a LOT of time to spend,
and who are bored - they do it.

to kill time.

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The only difference between a guy who play 24/7 and the guy who play 1 hour a day is how fast both will get their relic. If you play for a hour then log for the night your atma, book, light or materia will not magically dissapear. You don't need to play 10 hours straight to make progress. Going from novus to nexus is a 50-60hours playtime grind for everyone, Doesn't matter if it take you 3 days or 3 months.

Dear OP...

Unsubscribe and go here, Fun. There you will find some games cheaper than FFXIV that will provide you with the fun you need in your limited time. Everyone has different breaking points, everyone has tolerances and everyone has their limits. You've reached yours. Some of the others have not reached it and may never have. RNG may have favoured them or they may have a very high tolerance for grinds. You do not. You're not entitled, you're not whiny, you're tired and need a break. Take it. You might be lucky and be able to break all emotional attachment to this game, and find permanent enjoyment elsewhere.

Good luck to you my friend.

I just started playing and I know enough to know that a good chunk of lalafells aren't the calm type

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Originally Posted by hallena

The only difference between a guy who play 24/7 and the guy who play 1 hour a day is how fast both will get their relic. If you play for a hour then log for the night your atma, book, light or materia will not magically dissapear. You don't need to play 10 hours straight to make progress. Going from novus to nexus is a 50-60hours playtime grind for everyone, Doesn't matter if it take you 3 days or 3 months.

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I don't want to hop into the middle of some debate, but you cannot get your relic quest completed in 1 hour a night if you are playing certain classes. Many of those low level dungeons have an hour queue time just to enter, much less complete it.

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Originally Posted by Phe

willpower? more boredom.

patience? certainly not.
because that would imply, people who don't do the relic quest are impatient.

they just don't have so much time.
people who have a lot, a LOT of time to spend,
and who are bored - they do it.

to kill time.

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^ This.

Between raid-lock outs, here's not much else on offer at the moment sadly.

So I decided to do a relic weapon to fill the gap.


Arguably there is a little bit of patience involved.
•The Original Atma Drop-Rate
•Waiting on FATE's for the books
•Grinding Soldiery for the books
•Grinding the Alexandrite through soldiery/hunts
•DPS Dungeon Queues
•Zodiac Dungeon "Atma" drop-rates
•Zodiac Grand Company Seals/Gil/Soldiery Grind

The entire quest line is a test of your consistency and general patience for an atrociously boring monotonous grind "How long can you go before your patience runs out and you cry "I AM SO BORED"."

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The entire quest line is a test of your consistency and general patience for an atrociously boring monotonous grind "How long can you go before your patience runs out and you cry "I AM SO BORED"."

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This Atrociously grind is how long it took you to gain one level in older mmos.
What's your suggestion? If you tell me "it should be challenging" then i'll link you to my previous post

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Keep in mind that when you come up with your challenge. Zodiac is lvl 125 with customisable stats which make it better than 130 ironwork to some class while ironwork is 120 and require minimum T11 down and only one person per week have access to it aswell as waiting 3 weeks worth of poetic caping.
But you also need to make your challenge accessible to everyone or else people will complain.

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Originally Posted by OogaShaka

I am done, insane relic quest lines,waiting hours for fate spawns for books/allied seals, no easier mode for raid content so I can see the whole game, crafting items that take a million mats to do.

Listen most of us have real jobs we have to work and a life we want to live , I am casual but I also want to see all the content I am paying 18+ dollars a month for. I don't pay this to sit and wait for some stupid fate to pop for 2 hours AFTER I GET OUT OF WORK!!!!

I am taking my money elsewhere maybe the 10% of hardcore players that love camping and grinding will be able to pay your salaries.

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I have a full time job, 40hour week.

I also Have my Excalibur and Aegis Shield.

Yet I also find time to Raid 4+ days a week for 4+ hours, Cap Tomes, hang out with my friends, Play Destiny and Dragon Age Inquisition, and get 6-8 hours of sleep a night.

Whats your problem?

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Originally Posted by hallena

This Atrociously grind is how long it took you to gain one level in older mmos.

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Older MMOs no longer apply, because they're old.

You don't apply old movie standards from the 40's to modern cinema, you keep the fundamentals but the general picture changes.

The same goes for a relic-quest/level grind. You can't compare the one year it would take most people to finish the 1-75 grind, to ARR's 1-50 grind. That's just absurd.
Or the FFXI relic/myths vs FFXIV.

But in relative terms to FFXIV it is grindy, long and boring comparable to most content available in the game.

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Originally Posted by hallena

What's your suggestion? If you tell me "it should be challenging" then i'll link you to my previous post

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I didn't say that I wouldn't do it, or that I hated it.
But it is grindy and generally quite boring after a while. That's exactly how it was designed to be.


I'm not making suggestions or implications that it should be changed. Please don't misquote me.

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Originally Posted by hallena

If you tell me "it should be challenging"

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Well, arguably it should be challenging. But a lot of players didn't want that, which is fine.
And by arguable I mean, we're playing a game, to obtain certain things there should be some form of challenge to obtain it.

Player skill isn't the reason the new relic steps were added. People wanted a weapon they could obtain outside of raiding, and the development team provided it.
It's designed so a player with the absolute basic skills would be able to obtain it with a simple time-investment.

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But in relative terms to FFXIV it is grindy, long and boring comparable to most content available in the game.

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It is grindy, but i don't see what else they could do. If they make it challenging, zodiac is so strong it'll need to be very challenging to be worth it. And even if its a small challenge (2.0 titan) people will complain. A grind is a good and accessible way to gate something.

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Please don't misquote me.

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My bad.

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Originally Posted by Valmar

I have a full time job, 40hour week.

I also Have my Excalibur and Aegis Shield.

Yet I also find time to Raid 4+ days a week for 4+ hours, Cap Tomes, hang out with my friends, Play Destiny and Dragon Age Inquisition, and get 6-8 hours of sleep a night.

Whats your problem?

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See, this is what alienates players. Congrats, you have time to play destiny, and DA:Inquisition, and get 8hrs a sleep a night...make me wonder what time you have for family, if you have one. See, your time is gonna be valued differently to you than to someone else. you can't just say, well i have time so you should to. Everyone has their own circumstances and things to do in life. when I read your post, first thing i thought was either you are lying, or you dont have responsibilities like family at home, or you shirk your responsibilities when at home, but either way, your time is different than someone elses.

And then I wonder, when did you get your relic, was it before Destiny and DA were released? Because I have both, I love DA. But there is no way on God's green earth that you would have been able to get your relic while playing destiny and while playing DA which is extensive by itself unless as soon as you get home, you jump on FF and play until you sleep. So i can try and judge your time too, but guess what, i can't. I don't know what you do with your time, but its easy for me to sit back and say you lie if i'm basing your time off of what I believe time should be spent.

So in conclusion, not everyone has the same amount of free time and what you might consider free time is different to someone else. But obviously there is a problem with the relic system because there are more people complaining about it than defending it. And its probably why SE is gonna change how it works.

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So in conclusion, not everyone has the same amount of free time and what you might consider free time is different to someone else. But obviously there is a problem with the relic system because there are more people complaining about it than defending it. And its probably why SE is gonna change how it works.

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Where's that statistic?

Regardless if for some reason you truely do not have any free minutes in a day then maybe you should accept relic weapons were not meant for you. Wait for world of darkness and stop trying to get everything changed to fit your personal shedule.
Relic were meant as an optional weapon for people who do not raid. Not for people who's busy 24/7, patches 2.1-2.3-2.5 are for you

Why would i need a statistic to show that Im gonna value my free time more than you value my free time? And while yes, i do agree that their are other end game options for weapons, I think that we are forgetting the true reason why people are complaining, including me, about relic. Its not the grind alone. Its how boring it is. I don't mind grinding when I have either a story or a good reason to grind. For ex. Grinding for exp. in most rpgs, it can be boring but you have something to measure your success. Its not random. And thats the problem. A lot of people were turned off by how random it was. How you could farm for atmas for hours and not get one, but your fc buddy logs on for an hour and gets three. Its that kind of thing that turns people off. It did for me. And then to go through all of that and only upgrade your weapon a little bit is even more of a turnoff. Thats what people are complaining about. Make me grind, I don't care. just make it worthwhile. The end doesn't justify the means for alot of people for this relic quest. If SE took a vote, a majority of the players would vote for them to change how the relic quest works. And i think a majority would want the end product to justify the work. thats all.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

Why would i need a statistic to show that Im gonna value my free time more than you value my free time?

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You said "More people complain than people who enjoy it"

That's what they wanted a statistic for.


But you're probably right, people generally complain, whine and groan. But they do it anyway.
And the reward is worth it in the end, same as any grind in any MMO.

There HAS to be some form of grind/effort/gate to stop the majority players getting it Day #1.

So I've went back to another MMO I use to play. It has the same amount -- if not more -- subs and about the same raiding system/difficulty as FF14. I still love and play FF14, of course.

I've been browsing the other MMO's forum for the last couple months while deciding if I wanted to play it again. What I found interesting is that it's extremely rare to see "nerf everything please" and "I am entitled to all of the content because I pay a sub (so nerf all hard content)" threads. Actually, I didn't see any. I only vaguely remember seeing a few of those types of threads way back when I first started to play it. I do see "nerf this class" or "buff this class" all the time though, but that's understandable.

My question is, why does FF14's community have so many people who beg for nerfs? I don't just mean nerfs to hard content, but to long quest grinds like the relic as well. Meanwhile other communities simply accept that some content is hard or grindy. As we know it prolongs the contents life and keeps it interesting to some people. I'd understand the whining if there was only long and difficult content in FF14, but there is more easy and causal content. Not just "more" but tons of it.

Different mmos have different community. but between wow,swtor, wildstar, eso, ffxiv, tera, gw2. People always complained

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Originally Posted by Shioban

And the reward is worth it in the end, same as any grind in any MMO.

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Depends. Relic was indeed rewarding because of the challenge, but once the Atma stage started... it was a cesspool of broken dreams. If the final step for the Zodiac doesn't involve something new (a new challenging Relic/Zodiac Reborn fight), then it's going to feel about as rewarding as that time you got your Atma/Nexus. "Glad that waste of time is done with."

Actually, like i said, its not just the grind. They just need to nerf the boredom of it. And other stupid things. If im waiting more than playing, then its time to fix content. Hell you know how they can nerf it to be better? Make the atams available as drops in all dungeons depending on zone. Increase amount of light gained, etc. Since old content is not being played, stop tying up long lengthy quest to old dungeons. Tie them to newer content. The way it is now, the later you start, the more impossible it is to start. Thats not a good quest idea

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Depends. Relic was indeed rewarding because of the challenge, but once the Atma stage started... it was a cesspool of broken dreams. If the final step for the Zodiac doesn't involve something new (a new challenging Relic/Zodiac Reborn fight), then it's going to feel about as rewarding as that time you got your Atma/Nexus. "Glad that waste of time is done with."

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That's exactly what I want. And what most people expected to happen originally.

What's challenging about face-rolling Level 5 fates for 3 hours?

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Challenge; (noun)

a task or situation that tests someone's abilities.
"the traverse of the ridge is a challenge for experienced climbers"
synonyms: problem, difficult task, test, trial; More

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It's hasn't been challening at all so far.

Unless there's someone here who could somehow revise the definition for challenge by saying "Running Sastacha HM 32 times, Garuda 200 times and grinding Fates in Middle La Noscea REALLY TESTED MY SKILLS!"


If we had to defeat Twintania > Nael Deus Darnus > Bahamut then perhaps it would make sense, yes.

Or even some new form of content like you said with Chimera > Hydra and the introduction/incentive to the HM Primals that required some form of skill or skill improvement or even teamwork. The origianl relic quest FORCED players to learn. If you couldn't do Titan HM you were screwed. But people prevailed. And the sense of achievement for beating that fight was leaps and bounds above "Oh look I got my Novus...doing Garuda 200 times sure was exciting! I EARNED THIS!!"


Like you said fights would provide some form of challenge. Albeit an impossible way to do it seeing as they want it to be long/grindy, yet easy. It's kinda sad.

I don't see them adding; "Clear X Turn of Coil X times" anytime soon for it. And I generally hope they never do. Something unique would be nicer.

For everyone leaving: Okay, bro, see you in three weeks!

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Originally Posted by ZephyrK

I don't want to hop into the middle of some debate, but you cannot get your relic quest completed in 1 hour a night if you are playing certain classes. Many of those low level dungeons have an hour queue time just to enter, much less complete it.

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This is an MMO.. Make some friends and queue up with them then.
Why does everyone think this is a single player game with a chat?

[Edit:]

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

See, this is what alienates players. Congrats, you have time to play destiny, and DA:Inquisition, and get 8hrs a sleep a night...make me wonder what time you have for family, if you have one. See, your time is gonna be valued differently to you than to someone else. you can't just say, well i have time so you should to. Everyone has their own circumstances and things to do in life. when I read your post, first thing i thought was either you are lying, or you dont have responsibilities like family at home, or you shirk your responsibilities when at home, but either way, your time is different than someone elses.

And then I wonder, when did you get your relic, was it before Destiny and DA were released? Because I have both, I love DA. But there is no way on God's green earth that you would have been able to get your relic while playing destiny and while playing DA which is extensive by itself unless as soon as you get home, you jump on FF and play until you sleep. So i can try and judge your time too, but guess what, i can't. I don't know what you do with your time, but its easy for me to sit back and say you lie if i'm basing your time off of what I believe time should be spent.

So in conclusion, not everyone has the same amount of free time and what you might consider free time is different to someone else. But obviously there is a problem with the relic system because there are more people complaining about it than defending it. And its probably why SE is gonna change how it works.

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You are right. But then again you have to assign priorities to your life.. If your family is more important to you (which it should be, no discussion about it) you should know that you cannot achieve what others can in a time consuming game and live with it.. But then going to the forums and complain that you cannot achieve what others can with more spare time is acting like a spoiled brat yelling "BUT I WANT IT I WANT IT NOW!!! *pounds on the floor*..

Why do so many people in the MMO genre think they should be able to achieve everything in any given situation related to their real life?

For example how does the OP come to the conclusion that just because he pays for this game SE has to change something so he can get his relic for example? This is nonsense.. He pays to be able to play the game and log in, not to "win" in this game.. thats his own responsibility and not SE's...

For example if you buy a car it is not the car-vendors responsibility to get you a drivers licence.. If youre not good enough to pass the licence test, youre out of luck and its your own fault... You cannot simply walk up to him and yell " But.. but I PAYED for this car!"

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Originally Posted by Parasite

This is an MMO.. Make some friends and queue up with them then.
Why does everyone think this is a single player game with a chat?

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And they expect raids and relic weapon questlines to be easy. How cute. But I'm sure they are bored to death after raising all classes and jobs to 50, filling the hunting, crafting ,gathering, fishing and sightseeing logs, getting to the end of the current main storyline and Hildibrand questline and raising reputation to. maximum with all beast tribes.

For me personally getting passed Relic Zenith or Twintania is just a dream and extreme mode primals are still on the to do list, but I am having a blast. Especially compared to other MMOs

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Originally Posted by Balipu

For me personally getting passed Relic Zenith or Twintania is just a dream and extreme mode primals are still on the to do list, but I am having a blast. Especially compared to other MMOs

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Wonderful, thats how it should be. ^^

Go play WOW, OP. They have LFR, it's easy, queue is fast and you can see all the raid content in the easy mode.

Thats not the same thing. This is an MMO, but they made it so endgame content has to be done with others, but those "others" are not doing content, which you need to advance if you are new or didn't have as much time as others. Thats like you going for your drivers test, but they no longer are using cars, but some other vehicle, like flying car, that you cant drive until you get your license driving a regular car, which you can't because its outdated and you can't find anyone to give a test. See the problem? Its like they put a time limit on the game and made it super hard for people that just started to enjoy what many are enjoying now. New people aren't complaining so much about the grind more so than waiting longer than most older players had to wait to even attempt the grind. Waiting for almost an hour to do a duty that many who started 6months to a year ago only had to wait 5-10 min for is ridiculous.

Wow this thread is still alive?

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Originally Posted by Hyunckel

Wow this thread is still alive?

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Rage quitting always gets attention, even if the person has long gone.